With new housing slowing down here in MA, I’ve been very busy with additions this summer. Many of these additions have involved tearing the roof off and adding a second floor.
And I’ve got another one starting in 10 days or so. A pretty big one as we’ll be adding close to 2500 sqft with the new second floor and the two story addition. Anyway, I’ve always had a stock pile of busted up circ saws to use to cut right through shingles and plywood while taking roofs off. I find that circ saws are far faster than recips for this application. But it kills them pretty quick.
I’m just about out of dead or dieing circsaws and I’ve got this big one looming. So I’m trying to look into either a special chain for one of my saws or a dedicated fire/rescue/demolition type chainsaw. It’s either that or I dedicate a couple brand new cheapo makitas or something to the cause. But I’d rather find a more permanent solution… a tool suited to doing just this type of work.
So what do you know about these types of saws and chains? What sort of performance can I expect from one? Are they designed for just punching a few quick holes before needing sharpening? Or can I expect to work all day long cutting asphalt shingles, framing, siding, etc with one? Is there another tool for this type of work that I should be considering? I really don’t like recips for this type of work as the blades are expensive and they clog way too quickly with asphalt shingle gunk…. and they’re slow.
Replies
We have a Stihl 'roof saw' at the fire department. It's basically a standard chainsaw with the bar at an unusual angle, and a carbide chain. It cuts thru anything until the chain needs new teeth, at which point you replace them and it's ready to go again. I've heard guys say they runs theirs on standard chains and not the carbide ones. I've personally used it to cut thru layers of roofing and framing and it cuts like butter.
The other FD here has a Stihl rotary saw similar to a concrete saw. Haven't used that, but I know they cut thru metal roofs and do other demo with it.
I'm not sure OSHA would dig it if they came to your job and found guys on the roof with these tools, but you might like how fast they cut.
Thanks for the info Dave. Most of what I've been able to find online is Fire/Rescue stuff. Here's the saw I'm looking at closely right now:
http://www.unifireusa.com/saws/ps-16.htm
If you notice, it has a depth guage on it. You set the depth guage, and until you plunge the saw into the roof, the bar and chain are covered, when you withdraw the bar from the roof it is again covered up again. Despite the price tag, I'm looking pretty closely at this saw specifically because of it's safety features. (And of course, it's remarkable capabilities.
I looked at buying demolition chains from Stihl and others to use on the saws I already have, but all of them seem to have high kickback warnings. I'm not too comfortable with that, so I'm pursuing other options.
So I'm also looking at getting a demo saw like you described, basically the ones everyone uses for cutting concrete. And then fitting it with one of these blades from that same website the chainsaw was on:
http://www.unifireusa.com/saws/cut-off_blades.htm
All of the tools and blades seem pricey, but like anything else, if I can keep them busy I'm sure I'll make my money back. I just don't know which way to go with all of this though. Chainsaw or demosaw? Which do you think you'd choose strictly from a remodeler's point of view? I'm leaning towards the demo saw because it offers some versatility with blade choices and I could get some use out of it with other types of work.View Image
I use my Milwaukee 10" circular saw for most of this stuff.. it has more than enough power to do just about anything. If that doesn't do the trick we break out the Stihl concrete saw with a demo blade and that will cut through anything.. but it's a little harder to handle up on a roof.
I looked into this option this spring. The price for the chain alone was around $500. I was also told that the teeth would break off cutting 16p nails, so the life expextancy was hard to determine. You don't need a special saw, It will work on any chainsaw. We decided it was cheaper to use the worm drive.
Yeah, I've seen the FD chains. They have a sort of "bullet" ahead of the tooth to push nails out of the way.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Also, the bar has a depth stop on it, so they can control it when cutting through a roof, and not cut too much of the framework.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Actually, I was surprised to see the depth stops, because we don't have them. In training we're taught to plunge the saw thru the roof and then cut laterally until we feel a rafter, bring the saw out over the rafter, then plunge again. Probably with a lot of practice a guy could do that nicely, but in reality a lot of us have cut right thru framing (especially 2x4 trusses) without knowing it, including me. The power and vibration of the saw and the speed at which the blade shreds everything.... not much room for finesse. There are some fairly horrible stories of firefighters cutting right thru the vent hole they just cut.
Check out these guys. I've done a little dealing with them and they are pretty good. Their blade and saw prices seem to be way better then the ones your pulling up.
http://www.thefirestore.com/store/category.cfm/cid_1309_saws/
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
Wow.
Actually contributing to the forum. Keep it up, and you are going to make all of us hijackers look bad.In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey.
I give out a little here and there. It's too much with the link masters and profesional debators constantly looming.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
I checked out that link. Now I'm leaning towards an off-the-shelf Huskie, Partner, or Stihl 14" cut-off saw and then ordering one of those ridiculously priced blades from one of the fire/rescue sites. The blades are like $300+ but I think they're really the only thing that will do the job I want to do... cutting through both shingles and wood and anything else in the way.
I've been reading the specs very closely on the demo saws offered at the fire/rescue sites..... there doesn't seem to be any difference in the power heads compared to the off the shelf stuff.... other than the badging and about $500.
Man... these things ain't cheap. :(View Image
I have a "Wacker" version of the 14" demo saw, I like it for flat work, but have a hard time keeping the engine running on vertical work, it seems to flood out on me.
It may not be set up to be used vertically, or maybe I bought a POS. I would find out what the limitations are for vertical use, especially if you are going to use it for demo.
They do make an electric version also, but I do not know how well they work.
Geez, something is up with that Wacker... you really ought to be able to use it vertically. And Wacker is a very high end brand of tool... you see them on alot of Union jobs and commercial jobs where they take a beating.
I used a GC's Makita a few weeks ago vertically for about a 1/2 day cutting through a brick fascade for an addition we framed.... no problems. And I've used Huskie's before to make cuts in foundations... also vertically. The power head is very similar to a chainsaw's in that it's really tough to get 'em to stall out. I'd have yours checked out... you really shouldn't be having that kind of problem.View Image
I was thinking the same thing about the saws. I haven't done any real digging but I'm sure there's not that much difference. I would imagine that marketing and emotions have a lot to do with it. They get you in that mind set that this is the saw that real firefighters of the NYFD use and you think that's the one you have to have. And we all know that they are in it for the primo profit like the rest of us.
What about these carbide tip blades? I guess that's what I was more interested in.
http://www.thefirestore.com/store/category.cfm/cid_807_k_12_rescue_saw/
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
Edited 7/22/2006 10:26 am ET by Gunner
I saw those blades on that site, but they don't really say exactly what they will and won't cut through. So I figured I'd bite the bullet on one of these blades like the Uni-cut or even the blade below it:
http://www.unifireusa.com/saws/cut-off_blades.htm
In your link, the 'vent master' blades seems to be comparable both in function and price to the Unicut blade in the first link.
http://www.thefirestore.com/store/category.cfm/cid_1311_ventmaster_cutoff_saws/View Image
Yea they are pretty vague on it. Might as well get the best right off the bat and not pay for it three or four times by buying the cheap stuff.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
One piece of advice I can give you that is golden on those saws is. Get the right boot and leg guards and a face shield. That's a heck of a thing to get loose on you or one of your guys if you stumble or trip with it running. I've cut a lot of rail, and concrete with one.
They make some pretty decent steel leg guards, for just such a thing money well spent.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
Done. Pulled da trigger. I went to my local Huskie dealer today. He treated me like a punk when I asked if he could order the particular model I wanted. Like, "I'm not ordering a $1000 saw that might end up sitting in my showroom for the next year".
See ya. So I ordered the one I wanted online and saved $200 bones to boot. Still pricey, but I really believe it's the right tool for the job. Huskie 375K. And then bought that stupid expensive $350 blade from that site you linked me too.
It hurts, but at the rate we're doing these 2nd floor additions, it'll pay for itself. Thanks for all your help boss.View Image
Like, "I'm not ordering a $1000 saw that might end up sitting in my showroom for the next year".
You have to love that great customer service. I'm on the 8th week waiting for our 23 ga. Grex pin nailer to be repaired.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Where did you order from? Ive been getting all my Husky equiptment from Norwalkpower equiptment. I think its npeco.com. They always throw something extra in the order like chains, a hat or t shirt.
Yep, I used Norwalk. The deal I got with it was a $194 diamond concrete blade for $157. Not great, but not bad. The real deal was that even with 2nd day shipping, it was still $200 cheaper than my local guy. Don't get me wrong, I walked in there today with every intention of purchasing the saw from him... cuz sooner or later it's going to need to be serviced. But the guy sized me up and didn't want to play ball. Oh well... his loss.
View Image
It would be nice to talk to his boss and show him an invoice. The guy probably was the boss though so it doesn't do much good. I hate that attitude.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
Whatever, right?
Some pro-shops are just like that. Some lumberyards too. Hey I love the little guy... after all... I am one. But sometimes the service really does actually suck. Like that thread here awhile back about local lumberyards... we have one here where the main guy behind the countrer really is an azzwipe. It's like the big joke here in town amongst builders and carps. But half the clowns on this site have ESP and could tell from the other side of the Mississippi that it was my fault. Whatever. :)View Image
Yea our local electrical supply house is like that. If they don't know you and you don't order stuff by all the nicknames they bust your chops. And they stock very little Commercial stuff which is what I need 99 percent of the time. I like to screw with em when I'm in there. They always want to know why I haven't been ordering from them. I'll rip out a list of simple stuff like m.c. cable and cionnectors and what not. They'll start shaking their heads. That's the big joke they always tell ya they can have it in on Thursday. That's when they run to Louisville. 80 percent of the time they forget to pick it up. Leaving you empty handed.
My old boss got in a heck of an argument with them over a set of high dollar crimpers he special ordered through them. He stopped by and saw them sitting on the back shelf and told them they were his., they forgot who they had ordered them for. They insisted it wasn't for him though. A year later the stupid things were still sitting up on the shelf.
Our local lumber yard is worse.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
Whew I didn't think I was gonna get my commision. It was pretty touch and go there for a little bit.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
We'll see what we can scrounge up from the McCarthy General Contracting designer apparel line.... see you at the Tipi hoss.View Image
I love your signature line of clothing.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
The Champion long sleeve T's are all the rage this year. Maybe I'll bring a few to the fest. I owe Blodgett a sweatshirt too.View Image
Ohh yea now your talking. That hoody is the best. It's always a tug of war between the wife and I when were going out together.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
LOL... I'll 'class up' the whole lot of ya. Sunday best.View Image
I'm telling ya. She's funny. Couldn't understand the whole concept behind Riverfest or hanging out at Breaktime, but she's always asking me where the framing hoody is. She's half Irish so it appeals to her fashion sense. LOL
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
Can't blame her for that.View Image
Hope you can post back on how well this saw setup works for you. I tried the same thing 15 years ago with a diamond blade and it dulled quickly. I didn't really know much about those blades then so it may have been a wrong blade. I have since been getting a roofing crew to strip roofs at early a.m. and then I simply saw down the middle of the sheathing boards or plywood , whatever the case.
Edited 7/23/2006 12:08 am ET by shellbuilder
LOL.... where were you before I ordered the saw! Just kidding. I'm pretty confidant that this arrangement will work out well for us. Don't know until you try, right? I think the key is gonna be the blade... I've no doubt the saw will keep up... it's gonna all be up to the blade.View Image
Are you planning on using the diamond blade on roofs or the blade you ordered from the other site? I hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
The diamond blade is for concrete. The demo blade will be for the demo work.View Image
I got one tip for ya on the concrete blade. Well two. Make sure you find out what type of concrete it's good for, and use it for that. (There are different types.) 2. If it seems like it's getting dull stick it in the dirt and run it a little. That hones the blade or something. Anyway it works.
AND BUY STEEL BOOT, AND SHIN GUARDS!
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
Hey hoss... are these the type of guards you're talking about?
http://www.allsafetyproducts.biz/members/323655/uploaded/aspgencatalog05/page243.pdf
I'm thinking most of the chainsaw type protection will be useless, right? Because it's kevlar and is meant to shread and bind the chain, right? Not a lot out there.
I was just flipping through my Ben Meadows catalog.... do you get that? It's all stuff geared towards outdoor pros. I think you'd find a lot of good stuff in that catalog for both work and recreation.View Image
Yea that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. I've seen stuff that looks more comfortable though.
Never heard of Ben meadows. They got a web site?
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
http://www.benmeadows.com
Right at the top of the page, you can order a free catalog. It's one of the nicer ones.View Image
Any idea where you've seen the more comfortable looking stuff? I keep coming across all this 'storm trooper meets the tin man' type stuff. The sad truth is that if it ain't at least moderately comfortable I prolly won't wear it.View Image
I'll have to look around.I might even still have a pair in the garage, I think they're the leather ones though.. I'll get back to you.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
I don't think the kevlar stuff will do much with the demo saw. That kevlar is made to bind up the sprocket that drives the chain on a chainsaw, and a circular blade is a different animal.
If I were using a cut-off saw with a demo blade (rather than a not-sharp diamond blade), I'd definitely want some protection- at least really heavy, tall boots. The gyroscopic action of those saws makes them go where you don't expect them to when you turn around.
The husky should be a good saw for you. You gotta be a hardazz making sure no regular gas goes in there though, I've seen plenty of good saws ruined that way.zak
"so it goes"
I got in on this thread late but I thought I would toss in my 2 cents on your choice.
I'm a firefighter and used to work on a truck company.
We tossd the big heavy custom fire chain saws a few years ago and started getting smaller professional Stihl 14" saws. They are half the weight and price, and we still dont tear them up as fast. You can add a small sling on it and use it quick to make holes, while keeping up your manuverability. Cause nothing sucks worse that trying to get a saw to start on a wet roof with a steep pitch in the winter at night. We broke several saws just because we let them go rather than trying to save the saw and go over with it. The small sthils dont do that. Carbide chains couldnt hold up to what we did to them. We went back to cheap chains and tossed them every other use or so.
As for the cutoff saw.... The Husky should be a good choice for you, we use the Partner K-1200 and have for decades.... I think both are tough enough to last a pro like yourself.
As for the blades keep the 12" blade and be careful with the 14" ones. the centrifical force will really catch you off gaurd. We have found that the 12" is more stable and winds up quicker.
If you get a chance check out this link.
http://www.thewarthog.com
This is the blade we use and I can personally vouch for the amazing things our truck guys cut with them. Wood, light steel, concrete blocks, electrical wires that get in the way, plumbing lines in the walls, you get the idea. We do have to bring them back and soak them in solvent to remove the tar and crud but its worth it. We picked up the idea from Milwaukee FD and they got it from someone back east. Dont get me wrong... we still screw them up and destroy one every now and then, but when we are cutting a 50 foot ventilation strip section out of the roof of a commercial building they are priceless. But we use the small Stihls most of the time due to the light weight....
Good luck with the saw...
Heath
I looked at work and the saw we have is the Stihl MS 200T saw.
That's great information Heath. It's nice to hear from someone who has actually worked with the tools we're talking about and has some first hand information. I'll check out that link. I went with the 14" for the extra depth of cut, but it sounds like you think the 12" is a little safer to work with, huh?View Image
Geezus. I checked out that link. That blade is frightening! It looks super effective, but how about kick-back? With the spread between those teeth, it looks like slowing the saw up could catch one and send it flying. Scary stuff. Thanks again for the 411.View Image
yeah... I figured you would like the look of that blade. We were skeptical the first time we saw it too. It took us awhile to convince anyone to pony up the cash to try it. It would look good in a horror film though.
It isnt as aggressive as it looks though. You fire it up and run it full out before you touch the blade to the surface. We always joke around about the thing getting a good bite and dragging us up over the top of the roof. It hasnt happened but when it digs in on a hard item (steel roof truss) you make dang sure you have good footings.
My point about the blade size is this. Slap in a full size 14" blade and run the saw up a few times. You notice the centrifical force pulling the saw much more. And with the extra 2" of size the rotating mass takes longer to wind up. Fine if you are cutting concrete on a sidewalk or driveway, but not so hot when you are on a roof with fire underneath you.
We use the 12" to get a quicker spin up time with less centrifical force trying to pull the saw. Sure you have to run the saw harder and full out to make up for the loss in tip speed, but we want to be on and off the roof quickly. Some people complain that running the saw full out like that for a long time will hurt the saw. I say thats BS. We have all seen guys that cut concrete with these saws and they run tank to tank full out all day. We never "wear out" saws. The #1 thing that kills saws at our place is being dropped off a ladder or roof cause they are friggin heavy, and nobody is going to take a chance of riding the saw off the roof.
That being said we mostly use the cutoff saws for large area flat roof work. The guys will grab the small chain saw 4 out of 5 times for steep roof work. A 7 pound saw over a 20? Not even a choice.
And I read here alot but rarely post because I'm not a expert in anything, but I have to turn on the rant:
I got a e-mail from another firefighter that is on here reading this. "Thats not the way we do it at the Smithville Amalgomated and Consolodated Rib Shack, Transmission Shop and Fire Dept." Look buddy. I wasnt throwing stones at you. I dont care if you use a highly trained and sharpened rabid beaver to saw through roofs where you work, but watch for game wardens if you do. (and what kind of strap do you use on that?) I just posted something to help out a fellow tradesman, because I thought it might be of interest to him. I'm sorry you felt threatened my that posting, but the purpose of the forum is to discuss ideas and techniques in a non hostile way. Dont be a weasel and send me a nasty gram if you dont have the "huevos" to nail me online here. Why dont you go find a nice "whats the best motor oil?" or "cost recovery of a tankless waterheater?" thread to bash someone on.... Get a life
rant off.....
Sorry to hijack the thread... and back to your regularly scheduled programming..
Heath
Heath... great post and fantastic rant. That was a classic...LOL.
So I'm really thinking hard about the 12" blade now. It really makes sense and the difference in depth of cut really is about negligible.
The chainsaws still make me more nervous than the demo saws though. I'm not sold on that. And you said you use regular chains, huh? I find it fascinating that can cut more than a foot or two of roofing with a regular chain.... don't get me wrong... I certainly believe you. It's just that I have visions of a chain breaking and cutting my collar bone in half or hitting a 16D and being toast after about 3' of cutting. Shows you what I know. I do have a beater little 14" Poulan homeowner job kicking around in the basement. Maybe I'll buy a couple chains for it and bring it along and see what it can do.
You've really offered up some very helpful information dude. I appreciate it. You should post more often. I wouldn't worry about being an expert at anything... I don't think I've actually met but a handful of true experts in any field in my entire life. Shoot, even the best baseball players only bat around .300. View Image
> we use the Partner K-1200 and have for decades..
I have the K-3000, exclusively for concrete work. One thing that may be an issue is the direction the blade turns. On mine, it's the opposite from a conventional woodworking saw. The front of the blade goes down into the top of the work, not up into the bottom. So, it flings the water and ground up concrete back at me. If it were to bind, it would pull you forward instead of kicking back. Which way does yours turn? Partner doesn't say on their web site:
http://www.partnerusa.com/
-- J.S.
Well I was wrong again.... got promoted two years ago and been in middle management off the trucks since then. Went down and looked around at the saws today.
The newest saws we have are the K-950R's. The older 1200s are on the way out as we phase in the new versions over the next 5 years.
The blades rotate clockwise, if that is the best way to describe it. And the 950's are alot lighter than the 1200's. I would bet its 7-8lbs at least. They guys like the 950 better because of its power to weight. They say the old 1200's were too heavy and we did not need the capablity of the 16" blades ever.
Heath
I bet those things are that spendy because it's generally not a business paying for it, but a town or city government, and the sellers can get away with it (a la the $1000 toilet seats)
Not saying they aren't excellent machines, but really. Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
No, like the $1000 toilet seats they get spendy because the engineering and setup cost isn't spread over thousands or millions of units.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
That, too, is a possibility.
The cynic in me still likes the government angle. But whatever. It was just a thought. Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
Hey Gunner.... you're gonna think I'm a wise azz here, but I'm really not trying to be. I'm taking your advice on shin/toe guards quite seriously but I can't seem to find anything that fits the bill. When you're using a saw blade designed to cut through anything and everything.... what the heck should my guards be made out of?
I'm thinking I need like 1/4" steel or something.View Image
Dude, the saws coming tomorrow but that crazy blade showed up today. Holy moly. It weighs about 5lbs and is about 5/16" thick. The teeth on it are just vicious looking. When it gets dull, you just flip it around and start cutting again. Pretty nasty looking. I wish I could videotape this saw in use next week and somehow post it here. This things a maneater.View Image
Bring it on the pubcrawl. We'll chase muggers with it.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip to it..
I was thinking I'd just bring the blade as a spare throwing star (can't have too many), but that's an even better idea. View Image
You'd probably just have to fire it up and rev it. Clear the whole block out.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip to it..
That reminds me of my adolesencent days.
Four of my friends and I were cutting firewood all day and decided we were going to see Texas chainsaw massacre that evening.We were running late went straight to the drivein from the woods and 1/2 way thru the movie we fired up the chainsaws and ran down the isles.You would not believe the mass exodus we created.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
so you played with it yet?
I threw the blade on and gassed it up the other night. Started it up and just sorta handled it a bit to get a feel for it. It's a nice saw. We'll see how it does on Monday I think.View Image
cool. sounds like fun...
fyi, amazon has 30' fat max's for 20 bucks again...
and they also have a Irwin 80T & 60T blade set for 25 bucks..
That's a good deal on the tapes... I think they were down around $15 at one point. What size blades on that Irwin deal?View Image
10" but I have to assume by now they're back up to some ridiculous number again.
I wanna see some pictures of it action. All this hype about a saw we need some pictures.What's wrong with me? I could ask you the exact same thing.
I'll see what I can do, but my digital camera hasn't worked well lately. I'll give it a shot.View Image
So whats on the saws' menu this week?
How many layers of shingles, decking thickness?What's wrong with me? I could ask you the exact same thing.
First on the agenda is the roof.... 2 layers of asphalt shingles, 1x decking, and 2x6 framing. Then on to the walls.... 2x4 framing, 1x sheathing, cedar shingles, then foam board and vinyl. Little bit of plumbing in the way here and there as well.View Image
Pipes in the way?
Sounds like revenge for a framer!
Cut the pipe it's not important enough to stay. :) What's wrong with me? I could ask you the exact same thing.
With the gut job that's already been done to this place and the amount of demolition we're going to do to it.... I can't for the life of me figure out why they don't just take it down to the foundation.
All that we're keeping is the first deck, first floor walls, and some of the second deck... and the house really isn't that big to begin with. It'll be about 3000 sqft when we're done, but right now it's around 1600. Even in the parts of the framing that are being salvaged there will be loads of rework... re arranging the floor plan, moving windows, moving stair wells etc. I don't get it. But I don't get paid to know why.... just how. :)View Image
I agree sounds like it should get a wrecking ball and a new start. "Well I want to keep this but everything attached to it has to go."
I hope it pays well because that kind of rework is very time consuming. I just finished my addition project and it took me a solid week when I thought 3 days.
I'd like to see some pictures of the project in the works, sounds like a fun project. Hopefully its not 6 inches out of square! What's wrong with me? I could ask you the exact same thing.
Yeah, it was really tough at first... going from new construction framing to addition/remodeling framing... especially since it wasn't really my choice. But I'm definitely getting much better at being able to price these things. I wouldn't have touched this one a year ago for the simple fact that while I knew I could frame it... I also knew I couldn't bid it.
And I also figured out that we don't do interior demolition. As a crew, we've all agreed that we hate it and would rather stay home and eat Doritos than gut a house full of horse hair plaster and lathe. So I'm starting to learn to say no to the real losing propositions. I don't actually come out and tell a GC or homeowner "no, we don't do that" cuz I don't want to lose the job all together. I just say "geez, that's really not what our specialty is. We could certainly handle that for you, but I don't know how cost effective it would be for you if we included that in our scope of work. Why don't you try XXX Demolition Co. and see where they come in at?"
So yeah... it a learning experience... and I'm certainly learning. The hard way, as usual. :)
The numbers are just totally different from new work. This one breaks down to around $22 a sq ft, but I'm still aiming for the same target profit I normally would. So it's really tough at first to believe the calculator when you total it all up... the number can be overwhelming and I'm nervous to even submit my bids sometimes. But the truth is the calculator doesn't lie.... but my head will make up all kinds of stories... so I best trust the calculator if I want this to be more than just a hobby.View Image
I hear you about the numbers, they are in another ballpark compared to new work.
I did the interior demo on my job this week, all blown in cellulose insulation walls and ceilings. What a stinkin mess. The homeowner was great which made matters better. She knew it was going to be messy and was okay with it.
I enjoy additions and big remodels. It's a good change of pace from the subdivision stuff. RUN RUN RUN!
I had fun this week and the homeowner got a great addition. Her father was the architect and was a good man to deal, he even came out to see the job. More than I can say for the GC.
What's wrong with me? I could ask you the exact same thing.
LOL... blown in cellulose is just the worst of all of it. Especially in a ceiling man... no easy way oughta that mess unless you get someone to suck it all out first... I've heard of people having it done... but I've never been so lucky.
View Image
I am not that lucky either. What's wrong with me? I could ask you the exact same thing.
Then add it into your contract, the sucking it out...
We had that done, maybe two years ago on one particular job. Cost for removal was around 3 bills, not working in knee deep insulation is priceless.
Besides it's going to get trampled and miss-placed anyway, so they'll need to have additional insulation installed anyway.
Works out great for everyone including other subs.,
Sounds like you're missing a business opportunity here. Instead of saying no or suggesting a demo company, why don't you provide that as part of your service and sub it out?
That's what the GC who did my remodel does. Six guys show up with a 60-yard dumper and have at it - chimneys, cellulose insulation, rugs, flooring - they don't care, they just make it disappear in a day or two.
Oh yea, and you get the markup!
Now you're crossing the line from being a sub with maybe a sub or two of my own.. and towing the line with GCing the job myself. If it were all as easy as "calling a sub" I'd be a GC.... shoot everyone would. Subs need to be supervised and that takes me away from other things. And then if and when the sh1t hits the fan... I own the liability. No thanks.. just not worth it. It takes away from why I like being a sub and not a GC.... less headaches. I'm a specialist and I know my limits.View Image
Sorry - I knew you subbed, but I thought you had a GC license as well. Most of the guys I see around here doing remodels are GC's who do the framing/siding/windows and trim, sub out the other work. I do hear you about keeping a business model focused on your speciality.
I do have a GC's license... but it's just for picking up chicks. Seriously though.... I've thought about taking on a larger scope of work from time to time, but after four years on my own, I'm really just starting to figure out how to run what I've got. Besides, every time I GC something..... I remember why I like being a sub. I hope to grow into it someday, but it's not a good fit for me right now.View Image
Tell you what kid. Anytime your ready to pull the trigger and be the GC I'll come run your framing crew for you..........................................................into the ground :)
Tipi fest 06. Get hip to it..
Thanks hoss.... but that's exactly what I'd be able to do all by myself if I start spreading myself too thin.View Image
Do what my bosses on the railroad used to do. Show up when everyone is tuckerd out. Scream jibberish and threaten to fire everyone, then throw gravel up as you leave. That's real live bossin there.
Or the one I used to hate. Park your truck a half mile away on a real hot day walk over to the guys tell the youngest one to go back to your truck and get your dip or smokes. And hurry the he l l up. Every foreman I ever worked under when I started out used to do that. I'd do all kinds of crap to em. Stick their smokes down my pants,rub the top of their dip with you know whos head. Yea they were big tough guys, but I was laughing the loudest.
Sorry back to cutting roofs open.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip to it..
lol... I think we've all worked for that guy at one time or another. My old boss would get out of his truck, walk up to the second floor of the frame and start screaming for the tools he'd need that day.... including his belt. I'd always just ignore the crap out of him and let someone else play bit$h. Or if he was really being an a-hole I'd kick over his coffee and make him go beserk.View Image
It's always better when you can pi$$ off a guy like that.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip to it..
We used the beast today. It really is an animal. Here's the verdict.... on flat surfaces up to about a 6 pitch, it was heaven. On the 8 pitch it was too much saw to muscle around while trying to stay vertical.
I made one mistake with it. I didn't wear a face shield, just safety glasses. And then I made a few cuts with the saw up around chest height. A chunk of debris flew out of the back of the saw and busted me in the mouth pretty good. Got a nice big fat bloody lip. But I'm glad my mouth was shut.... for once. ;)
You wouldn't believe the "wake" this saw leaves while it's cutting. Like a pyroclastic blast from a volcano. With solid footing, it was remarkably easy to handle, but like I said, on the steeper roof pitches it was a bit too heavy and awkward.
It really is a savage though. It cut through the ridge cap area like nothing... and that's where the shingles were about 2" thick. Later we used it to cut through walls from the inside.... framing, sheathing, siding, pipe.... no problem. Like a roto-zip through drywall.
I came home so dirty my wife made me strip on the porch and still hit me with the cold hose before I could come into the house. :)View Image
It sounds awesome. Let's see some pictures of the beast in action.
Is this going to be tool you're afraid to let the help use?
Kimball
Sorry boss, no pictures. I'm sure they'd start a firestorm of controversy anyway. :)
Naw, I'll let the boys use the saw. They were pretty wary of it this morning, but were warming up to it before too long. They've got a healthy respect for power most of the time. I wouldn't throw it at a new guy or anything, but with some direction I'd let them run it. But just to be safe.... I'll be the cut guy up there. :)View Image
> I came home so dirty my wife made me strip on the porch and still hit me with the cold hose before I could come into the house.Was that because of your dirty clothes or your dirty mind?
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Dirty clothes = cold hose.
Dirty mind = cold shower.
Either way... I'm out in the cold as usual. :)View Image
i've been away at scout camp with the boy for a week, sorry i missed the bulk of this thread.
i'm glad to see you didn't buy the demo chain saw. we have one, and I would be happy to mail it to you.
we do a ton of roof tearoffs for our fire repair work and we've tried most everything and the fireman's demo chain saw was an expensive lesson on how not to cut open a roof.
you've learned the same thing we have. the gas powered saw is the nuts for speed, but it sure is heavy and useless for anything steeper than a 6. i think even a 6 is pushing it.
most of the guys get tired of dealing with the saw's weight, it's general unwieldyness and of course the pull cord to start it all the time.
you really need to watch your depth of cut on a roof. you can slice the rafters in half and never know it with all of the power.
we don't use expensive blades for our demo work. they are 12" nail cutting blades that look like typical nail cutting carbides, not like those fearsome things described earlier that look like ninja stars. i think we pay around $50 to $70 for each blade and they last for quite a while depending on what we are cutting.
because of the things i just mentioned, we don't use our Partner saws for doing too much roof demo work. most of the roofs we remove are seriously compromised by a burn, so slinging a heavy saw around on one isn't too appealing.
so, what we use for the most part are two 8 1/4" Skil Worm Drives. We've had them for about 7 or 8 years and have yet to wreck them. We just use them for demo. and we don't use nail cutting blades in them. nail cutting blades take too much horsepower, so we use inexpensive framing blades. we also probably take blue's approach by not pushing the saws until you see blue smoke. vertical cuts between each rafter, cut the rafter off at top, and then lift the rafter out with the sheathing and shingles on it. into the can and onto the next.
carpenter in transition
Tim, I'm curious to hear a bit of a review about the roof chainsaw. I know it didn't work out for you, but I'd like to hear a bit about why so I don't go talking myself into it a year from now. ;)View Image
brian,
specialized product, parts were a problem, only one or two people in the area ( Lehigh Valley PA ) could service it, chains were obscenely expensive, engine after about 1 year never ran right and the service guys started calling it the boomerang saw
it would run for a few minutes and them just shut off. restarting was tremendously exercising ( as if ripping the roof wasn't enough )
worst of all, one 16 penny nail would just about toast the chain, and then the time to change the chain................lordy....
the bulk of what you do with these saws is cut through sheathing and shingles. making those cuts with a chain saw is not particularly comfortable.
to put it bluntly, i (we) hated that damn saw. period.
if i find out you bought one of those things, i'm driving to Boston to conk you on the head with my Vaughan. i have relatives in Newton.
there is nothing that you can do with the chain demo that you can't do faster and safer with your Husky.
and now you can cut concrete, block and rebar, too.
just consider less expensive demo blades. i think we use Oldhams which we get locally
this looks like it:
http://www.oldham-usa.com/DBScripts/SawBlades/commerc/ComNailCutSpec.asp
i haven't bought one in a while, although i saw one on line for about $35. this would be a big savings over what you bought already.
trust me, you made the right choice with this saw, no doubt about it.
tim
carpenter in transition
Cool... yah convinced me. It's funny you mentioned the chains being trashed after a few nails... that's the whole reason I even considered it. And thanks for the lead on the blade... didn't know such a creature existed (standard carbide wood and nail blade for big saws).View Image
Glad you like the saw, sounds like a blast to use.
I can imagine the mess the saw made though. Sounds like you went home lookin like you had been in a bar fight, dirty and bloody.
Does the saw throw hot chunks of nails? You said you cut through the ridge cap area and those are filled with nails.
What's wrong with me? I could ask you the exact same thing.
Cool, I'm glad it worked. They're also real fun sawing a block wall overhead.
I thought I told you to wear a face shield? Everyones got to learn on their own.
I know it's too hot now but I'd throw a pair of coveralls in the truck to put on when your cutting. Just so you don't have to walk around with that nasty crap all over ya. In a month or two it's gonna be to cold to take showers with the hose in the yard.:)
Congrats.
Tipi fest 06. Let's roll.
> .... I can't for the life of me figure out why they don't just take it down to the foundation.
Here in LA, I see a lot of jobs where they just leave one token scrap of old wall standing. It's because zoning and setbacks have changed since the house was built. They can keep the original footprint if it's a remodel, but would lose some area if it were classified as new construction.
-- J.S.
Demo saw in action...one hand...shootin with a digi in second hand...Diesel, you da man!!!
Did you ever try a worm drive saw. They are much more powerful than a side winder. Just use you old blades on a wormdrive and it cuts though everything. Just be careful, worm drives don't stop spinning, try just tear your are off from the torque.
Headstrong, I'll take on anyone!
Yeah... I'm familiar with wormdrives. :) And yes, we kill those too while demoing roofs... even the 15A ones like the Bosch.View Image
Diesel, I think perhaps your guys are simply trying to push the saw past their limits. They must be binding them and buring up the armatures.
We just hacked through a roof last month. We used our ordinary, everyday saws but went through a few extra blades. None of our saws complained or went bad. We are using Makitas....regular powersaws.
What do you mean when you say the roofs are ruining your saws?
blue
that was gonna be my question.
I've cut thru plenty of roofing ... but being for an addition and not on top of a burning building ... I've never cut fast enough to ruin a saw.
cooked a few blades ... but never the whole saw.
I'm thinking a good maintained saw that's cleaned every now and then ... and a bunch of decent blades ... just change them when they're cooked ... not like there's a whole lotta cutting to tie in an addition?
I'm lost. Maybe I work too slow ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff... I'm not talking about tieing into existing roofs. I'm talking about removing roofs...framing, sheathing, and shingles in one shot... as quickly and effictively as possible. But thanks for the sarcasm anyway.
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Edited 7/23/2006 11:12 pm ET by dieselpig
no sarcasm ...
I've worked on plenty of additions.
always have to cut thru something.
have always used a regular old circular saw ... and just plunge thru the shingles.
sawzaw cuts thru the framing as need be.
buy what ya want but it's done everyday without special demo tools.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Gee thanks Jeff. Skilsaws and recips. I wish I thought of that myself.View Image
take something for those cramps, huh ...
Nite.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Right back atcha babe.
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Edited 7/24/2006 5:56 am ET by dieselpig
and Jeff...
The two of you sound worse then a couple of old ladies in the heat of menopause..
Yer right. I hadn't done any physical labor in a couple days and couldn't sleep. Turns me into a little b1tch. Next morning I woke up especially cranky. Sorry y'all had to read that.View Image
no one forced me to read it, it was mildly entertaining...
would have been more so to see the two of you doing it in person in dresses and girly slapping each other though...
Report back on the demo saw, it looks mean, yet fun.
would have been more so to see the two of you doing it in person in dresses and girly slapping each other though...
Keep your fantasies to yourself loverboy. View Image
Sorry... you walked right into that one boss.View Image
say what you will...
I still wasn't the one arguing like a women earlier in the thread ;)
and believe me, I have lots of fantasies, some that probably should never be shared, but I can assure you, neither you nor jeff are in any of them ;)
My bad boss. Sorry for being a nancy at ya.View Image
no problem ...
Flesh Wound!
come back and fight again!!
I just worry so about U kids and yer big fancy saws ... be safe out there!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I figured you'd be from the 'no blood, no foul' school, but I figured I oughta apologize just in case.
Big saws are fun... but yer right... this one needs special attention and respect.View Image
I can't foul anyone this week anyways ...
I was juct kicked outta the tavern for calling someone by their real name before I let them sling mud at me.
So ... if I call U Brian ... just complain and I'll get my other hand slapped!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
We get a few roof demos out of them and of course we change blades when needed. But hogging through two or three layers of shingles, 3/4" decking, and old hardened framing stock kills them sooner rather than later.
I'd say yes, we are pushing the saws past their limits. I highly doubt that what we're doing with them is what the manufacturers had in mind, don't you think? That's kind of a given, isn't it?
What do you mean when you say the roofs are ruining your saws?
Ahhhh.... no workee?View Image
Blue, I guess I shoulda been more specific. Yes.. we're pushing the saws past their limits. I think what is happening (but I'm guessing here) is that the armeture (sp?) is getting too hot and distorting, or we're just plain old 'burnin up the motors'. If there is such a thing.
Yes, we could go slower, let the saws cool off, maybe try to cut a little straighter. But that stuff's just too slow IMO. Believe me, we've tried it. It's not like I removed one roof and decided the system is 'no good'. In fact it's been 'good enough' up until now. I'm just trying to think outside of the box... maybe there something else out there that's better and faster, and hopefully, in the long run... less expensive. I figured you'd be more receptive to that line of thinking than you seem to be. But after going from one job like this to the next (next job with be the 7th partial or full roof removal) ... the circsaws aren't keeping up. They've been plenty good for one here, and one there... but now that we're doing a bunch in a row... NFG.
Additions seem to be where the work is at right now. A lot of guys all around me are struggling to find work. We've somehow managed to stay busy enough by being flexible and knocking down these additions. I'd love to be doing new work too, but you can't get blood from a stone. So it looks like I'll be doing addition/remodeling type work for a bit. That calls for a shift of gear in the brain. Time to think a little bit differently.
I'm aware that a circsaw is all you need to remove a roof. Done it a bunch of times myself. I'm just thinking maybe there's something better at it out there. Who knows... maybe this is the next great idea? Or maybe it's a total flop and I'll be stuck with a concrete saw that will get used twice a year or sold on Ebay for a loss. But you can't say I didn't try, right?View Image
Diesel, I understand your process and I don't blame you for looking around for something different.
I would be scared to death to run chainsaws through a roof, but then again...I'm a safety freak.
I'm envisioning two or three or four of your guys, ramming the saws faster than the roof will allow. Compounding the problem is your electrcal connections. On the remods that I've been involved in, the source of power usually isn't too good. Often, the homeowers want us to plug into one circuit that ends outside in the garage. Usually, that circuit is already strung though the house and terminates out in the garage, so the distance from the electrical box is significant. When you add your hundred foot lead and then your hundred foot cord, you are operating your saws with reduced voltage. Then, your guys want to ram them through the tough conditions of the roof.
My suggestion is to get a better power source, shorter lengths of cord and only allow the saw to move as fast as it will go without losing rpm. It takes patience and I know I'm 53, so it's much easier for a guy like me to have patience, but that is what it takes.
When you analyze how much time is "lost" by forcing the saw, rather than letting it do it's work, I think you'll find out that the time isn't that much different. Also, instead of keeping everyone on the demo phase, drop some people off to start the deck building and framing. This will take some pressure off the saws and keep the job progressing in a slower, but better organized manner.
We didn't have any problem on the last roof that we took off. We had multiple layers of asphalt shingles too but the boards were pine and the saw cut through them like butter. We just cut the roof into 16" strips and chopped through the 2x6 rafters making the assemblies light enough to carry.
In any event, good topic. I hope you and Jeff can quit squabbling though. So far I'm still going to use my Makitas but if someone offers up a better solution, I'll be all earss
blue
> I know I'm 53, so it's much easier for a guy like me to have patienceHeck, at that age I'd think you'd be in even more of a hurry -- something's gaining on you!
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
You guys are big on building on the ground and lifting into place is it possible to cut the rafters from the top plate and lift the roof off then demo with heavy equip on the ground.
Just thinking out of the box.
I have used a trackhoe and demosaw and it is fast but it would depend on how clean a seperation you would need.
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Heck, skip the saw. Just a few ounces of C4, well-placed ...
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Andy,
That's close to what I'm hoping to do on this one. This one is finally a remo job where I can actually get my forklift on site.
What I'm hoping to do, is stage the whole house with wall brackets and guard rails. Keeping them up as high as I can to the roof line. Then, what I hope to do, is use the demo saw to cut a large section of roof out... with a chain running through it that goes back to the forklift which will be parked with the carriage right about the spot to be removed.
Once the largish section is free, I can bring it down onto the ground and cut it up safely with chainsaws and/or recips. Scoop up the mess, and drop it in the dumpster.
That's plan A anyway. The other option is to just cut a huge hole in one gable end on the side where the dumpster is. Then I can put the work platform on the forklift and have the cutman (probably me) on the platform with nice stable footing to cut from. On the platform with me will be a handsignal guy to communicate with the operator. We'll work with smaller more manageable chunks which we'll cut free into the hands of runners who will take it to the hole in the gable end and chuck it in the dumpster. If we're going to be hitting the dumpster with debris from up on the house, I really don't want any ground guys around anyway. And this arrangement will let me be harnessed to the machine. It's not a steep roof at all, but it's two floors on top of about 6 or 8' of exposed foundation.
But who knows what'll really happen. I try to plan things as best possible, but..... it's construction. Murphy lives on this job. View Image
I'm envisioning two or three or four of your guys, ramming the saws faster than the roof will allow. Compounding the problem is your electrcal connections. On the remods that I've been involved in, the source of power usually isn't too good. Often, the homeowers want us to plug into one circuit that ends outside in the garage. Usually, that circuit is already strung though the house and terminates out in the garage, so the distance from the electrical box is significant. When you add your hundred foot lead and then your hundred foot cord, you are operating your saws with reduced voltage. Then, your guys want to ram them through the tough conditions of the roof.
Ding, ding, ding.... we have a winner! Seriously though... that about sums it all up. I think part of the problem is that when we're all doing the demo, we just want it to be done as fast as possible. As you know, demoing roofs is just dirty, heavy, hard work...... up in the air. So we push everything, including ourselves, way past their limits.
I'm going to give this demo saw thing a try. If it doesn't work, I'll take your advice and go back to the circsaws and just try to slow down a bit. And find a decent power source. But I love trying new things and I really want to give this a shot. I'll let you know how it works out. I've got no problem coming back here and telling you guys it was a total bust if that's how it plays out. But I think it's worth a shot.View Image