Does anyone have a general design agreement they use and would let me take a look at?
I like designing houses for “clients” but I need to start getting things in writing. I can understand on their part. They show up at my office and look at some drawings for an hour or so and then their supposed to leave with nothing and make one of the biggest decisions of their lives about whether to build or not based on drawings they don’t have in front of them.
I’d rather have an agreement in place, get some money, and let them take the plans and look at them all they want.
Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.
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I thought this was one you might like to comment no.
If you're not too busy with the motel thingy yet.
(-:
You put some time and effort into your disclaimer, surely you can do the same for a simple agreement to sell one set of prints of a house design you may or may not be involved with once the other party walks out the door. How much information is on the "plans" you're willing to sell, and how much liability are you willing to take on?
Haha, I just meant my "disclaimer" as a joke, nothing serious there.
Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.
Boy, you sure fooled me, small print and all.
I think maybe you overestimate the designer's role in most people's decision making process. You said,
"They show up at my office and look at some drawings for an hour or so and then their supposed to leave with nothing and make one of the biggest decisions of their lives about whether to build or not based on drawings..."
Even if they LOVE the design, how are they going to decide to build or not before they find out what the project will cost?
Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
Well typically the next step for us, after we go over the drawings and they are happy with them and don't want to make any changes, then I proceed with putting together a quote.
The whole thing that made me start this thread is that in my area it's not uncommon for a couple to go to two or three builders with a plan book and tell the builder we like a little of this and a little of that. Architects are rarely if ever used around here. So I'll draw up a plan based on what I think they are looking for while Joe Builder and Sam Contractor are doing the same. OK so then the Home Owners like all three plans and give the go ahead for each builder to price their respective design. And then they decide who to go with based on price and not so much on design. And they never think to have all three builders price the SAME plan!
I just want to be able to go over the plans with them and if they want to get other prices then by all means pay X amount and take these plans and have anyone else bid them you want. I don't mind losing a job because of price but I hate losing a job because we weren't even looking at the same thing.
I've even had people call me after we went over the plan and then I gave them the price and they ask if they can have a set of the drawings "just to look at." I tell them they are welcome to pay for the drawings and then they can have a set but until then I cannot let them out. I would just like to start getting this in writing right at the get go.
I know whenever I buy a new truck or equipment I collect brochures and scour them I couldn't imagine preparing to build a house and not have anything to study.
Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.
I just wasted a lot of time putting together plans for some people based on the verbal agreement that they'd buy a set to for themselves at xx price.Stupidly I went with that and began the estimating process and they didn't like the price so they didn't want the plans and funny, they couldn't remember the two meetings in which we discussed the price of the plans and their stated intention to purchase. And even though I kept thinking, "I gotta get this in writing." I was so consumed in the design/estimating process that I put it off.Never again. I'm working on a write-up to split up the design/estimating process so that doesn't happen to me again. I try really hard (not always successfully) to learn from my mistakes.
I think what you just experienced hinges on an inherent flaw that so many of us in the trades suffer from.
We are givers, helpers. We like to fix things including too often another persons need for design and estimating.
Stop giving away your time for free. If your market won't bear you charging for your design and specification analysis than either move or get a job with a contractor. I did!
You too need to read Sonny's "The Process".
Turned my world around.
When you are 30 yo and giving away your time you may not think to deeply about it.....................until suddenly you are almost 50 and you ask yourself "what the hell am I dooing?
Eric[email protected]
I hear you on that, I'm 42 and have given away far too much of my life already.I know others around here charge for designs and I think its also a good way to sift through the tire kickers and dreamers. I do indeed have that flaw; that desire to be the 'helper' who is happy to assist, forgetting that my time has value. I intend to work hard on getting that into perspective.
Try this.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=87609.13[email protected]
Where's Sonny "The Process" somewhere on the jlc forum?
I have it, but cannot find it right now.
You may find it using the search function here..................someone posted it just a week or two ago.
A couple of people here have it. if you wait long enough and ask just right it will appear.
Best wishes.
Eric
[email protected]
or this if not the same as previous.[email protected]
wow.... this is crazy...
i did my last "free" design about 20 years ago...
on design / build.... we get paid before we start the design.... we give back nothing if we get the job...
they can't use the design if someone else builds it
and if we're working from the owner's plans.. we charge to prepare a Proposal
you have to control the process or you will wind up giving away 100's and 100's of hours every year that you will never recover..
FURTHER.... you wind up giving your time and effort to customers who won't hire you , when you could have been working for someone who will willingly pay for both the design and the buildMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I read the earlier post by the OP, IIRC, which said:
The whole thing that made me start this thread is that in my area it's not uncommon for a couple to go to two or three builders with a plan book and tell the builder we like a little of this and a little of that. Architects are rarely if ever used around here. So I'll draw up a plan based on what I think they are looking for while Joe Builder and Sam Contractor are doing the same. OK so then the Home Owners like all three plans and give the go ahead for each builder to price their respective design. And then they decide who to go with based on price and not so much on design. And they never think to have all three builders price the SAME plan!
And right away I thought of you! And how you would gasp and choke upon reading it!
That practice happened to be common all over the midwest, where I lived before moving to NY. And I'll bet it is common in many other areas as well.
Free estimates based on a design-build firm's scheme are still alive and kicking, and wherever the practice exists, those who attempt to charge for proposals fight an uphill battle.
i'd rather sling hamburgers at MacDonalds than work for free.....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Then be glad you operate your biz where you do, instead of, say, Michigan, Indiana, or much of Illinois.
BTW, Mike, I'm curious about something. If the boys and girls over at a shop like Estes/Twombly design a house or big addition for a client, and you must have seen work like that in your territory, does it go out for competitive bids?
yes ... they do.. and they shop them ....
i bid one a bunch of years ago.. they had a "time is of the essence " clause ( owner was in a rush ) 6 months total
that was before i found out that specs are only what you want them to be...
the guy that got the job spent two years and went T&M after the first 6 months
i won't bid an estes job.. and he won't ask me.... long story .. no love lost
i bid another one for his former partner.... Burgin... a better class of person... but that job was another waste of my time.. it never got built
those were some of the guys that convinced me to charge for Proposals... and i haven't missed a thingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I gotta ask. Where in the pecking order of local builders, today, is that outfit that won what you bid, and then went cost plus after 6 months?
i seriously doubt they are still in business.. i haven't heard of them in 15 years
but.. keep in mind.. they got their foot in the door by being the low bidder
hey... what the ?
it's snowing .... #$##!Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
if it makes you feel any better spring went on a vacation out here and it's supposed to get below 20 tonight from what I've been told.
Yeah. We had a few nice days, then the temperatures went back down into the 50s. Looking forward to better weather.Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
The whole discussion prompted by the OP, EJCinc, was amazing. Did anyone help in terms of what you said--how to successfully compete in a market where design services are given away for free? That's EJCinc's reality. Wow. Hard to imagine here where custom builders won't even bid competitively anymore; it's a negotiated bid or nothing. But, anything constructive to say here (besides, move??) I'm trying to think. What he/she(lets say "he") really wants to do is find a way to stop designing what he's not going to build. The money is in the building. I think I'd try to sell it 2 ways for awhile. First, the traditional way it's done in his area. Secondly, "sure, I can do it that way and here's the fee and contract. Or, you might prefer having me design to your budget since that's the way you're going to eventually have to make your decision. Given the framework of whatever your budget is, I'll design whatever you want." Might that fly??
Girlbuilder - I have been using a design/estimating contract for about a year now. Customers like it. I like it. But I'd sure like to see what you have in yours.
Want to swap ideas?Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
Sure Jim, as soon as i put one together, which I intend to work on today. I have an attorney friend also, but I won't call on him right now as I don't have the funds for his time right now.I'm saving this thread to remind me.
You had a verbal agreement that is enforcable in most states if all parties were 18 and sober at the time of the agreement. Go after it in small claims court. You have evidence of your work. The judge will give you something. It's worth the $50 bucks to file.
Thanks Cannon, I've heard this before and probably will pursue it. I guess I should work up an invoice as some have advised, for my time and the plans, send it along and then pursue small claims court as well, the burden of proof for civil cases is not hte same.Also how could they claim that I spent hours and hours of precious time developing a ten sheet set framing/finish plan for their fantasy remodel with no promise of payment? I think since you've pointed that up, it would be pretty hard for them to claim that in front of a judge.
I've even had people call me after we went over the plan and then I gave them the price and they ask if they can have a set of the drawings "just to look at." I tell them they are welcome to pay for the drawings and then they can have a set but until then I cannot let them out. I would just like to start getting this in writing right at the get go.
I'm no expert at this, but having read so much on this topic here and in the trade magazines, plus our company does it although I am not entirely familiar with the process.............
Which leads me here. You need a process. One that you can verbalize.
Mr. Paulson, I would love to have a conversation with you about what ideas you have to incorporate into your new home that you anticipate building. Please, let's make an appointment to meet; let's say for an hour. During this time you can show and tell me what design features you whish to include in your home.
In addittion, I can discuss with you my design fees and what you can expect from me in the way of tangible/working drawings.
You must collect a retainer from them BEFORE you put a pencil to the paper or you will be working for free.
Who needs that? There are only so many hours in my week, and I know how many of them I need to get paid for.
Ask someone here for a copy of Sonny Lykos' "The Process". It is applicable to what you do. I have it here someplace if you cannot get it from someone else.
My mitzvah for the day!
Eric
[email protected]
Edited 4/4/2007 5:48 pm ET by EricPaulson
Wait a second. Are you saying you first design their house, then if they like it enough you work up a bid for them, and you don't get paid for ANY of that unless you sell them a house?
And you're knowingly competing against other builders in your area that are doing the same thing - designing and pricing a house for the same people?
I must have misread something there. Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
Nothing magical about this but I've used it for quite a few years
DESIGN AGREEMENT
SHELL HOMES AND SHELL ADDITIONS
3604 East Stratford Rd. Va. Beach, Va.23455
Office 460 5678 Cell 621 2082 Email Andrew@shelladditions.com
DATE: / /2007
PROPOSAL SUBMITTED TO OWNERS: Mr. and Mrs.
STREET ADDRESS:
CITY STATE & ZIP CODE: Virginia Beach, VA
The following agreement dated / /2007 is for the fixed price and sum of
$_00 .00___ whereby contractor will provide (5) set of blueprints to the owner to include floor plan, all exterior view elevations, walls section details for the construction and alterations necessary to build the following.
This fee will be deducted from price of construction contract is authorized by owners.
Plans are to be completed by Shell Homes and Shell Additions within (10) days of payment received in conjunction with the owner’s necessary signatures of authorization below.
Plans will be drawn to ¼†scale and will conform to all building and zoning requirements.
*Owners are to provide a survey site plan with this agreement
Authorized representative signature of Shell Homes and Shell Additions:
Signature__________________________ _ Date / / 2007
I hereby authorize Shell Homes and Shell Additions to perform the design work as stated herein (both owners are required to sign below):
Signature_______________________________ Date _____/ _____/2007
Signature_______________________________ Date _____/____/_2007
Edited 4/4/2007 7:40 pm ET by shellbuilder