Hi guys,
I just had a painter do some work on my house. He had to repair some of the wood before he could paint becuase it was rotted, but he said, no problem, he had carpentars he worked with who could fix any rot before work began.
So…long story short. the work has been completed, he has my final check, and some issues are are arising already. One is that knots are beginning to show through the painted part, ( they did prime it, but they only used one coat of oil primer, and one of paint )
The second problem is that some of the boards look like they are already starting to separate. ( see pictures ).
He is sending someone to come look at it and fix it tommorow, but I have my doubts about the quality of wood they used. I am really starting to get upset, and want to know how you think I should deal with these guys when (if ) they show up tommorow.
Thanks!
~ Rosa
Replies
Sorry, but that sure doesn't look too good. You're in for some tough talk. It's a good sign he's being responsive, but I would want him there in person.
The quality of the wood is not as important as the quality of the workmanship. If new, the miter joints look really bad and were not installed correctly.
Judging by the paint drops all over, I am not too confident about the painting either. A properly primed knot should not bleed through like that. On the other hand, it can be corrected now. Be sure to ask how they will be fixing these issues before they just pound in a few nails and slap on one more coat of latex and call it done.
Edited 5/7/2008 2:49 pm ET by WindowsGuy
Thanks for the quick response - if I ask him how he is going to fix the issues, what response should I be looking for? He could tell me anything, and I would just nod my head and say OK since I don't know what he did wrong in the first place. I want to give them the chance to make it right, but I guess I need to instruct THEM on how to.
To tell you the truth right now I am so angry looking at that mess I am thinking of just telling them not to come back and calling the Better Business Bureau.
Thanks again,
~ Rosa
It's a tough call.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Don't get me started on the silly BBB. Suffice it to say that you have to be incredibly stupid as a merchant to get a poor listing there.
As for how to fix it properly...
The knots should have been primed with an oil based stain blocking primer or better still shellac. On the other hand, it the knots are still weeping due to inadequate drying, sealing can be problematic at best. This is why clear stock is used.
The miters opening may in fact be a combination of both warping wood, lack of backpriming the wood, poor fastening or all of the above. It may be best to simply have them cut a new piece, back prime it and then fasten with nails/screws and waterproof glue in the miter.
Unfortunately, it's been my experience that poor craftsmen do not typically fix their own mistakes any better than the original effort, so hopefully the repair will be done by someone else.
Good luck.
Thanks so much for the suggestions of what needs to be done!
I am about to fire off an email suggesting that they need to come back and do what you suggested when they have the time, and not rush over here tomorrow to do some slipshod work.
I am assuming at this stage of the game that they will just come back and do something useless, then I will have to hire a decent carpenter. nice. I saved for a few years to get this done. good money after bad.
I really am feeling very angry and powerless right now.
~ Rosa
first take a few deep breaths and calm down before you have bigger problems than shoddy work. why turn him in to bbb if he's offered to fix it? just because your standards are higher than his? i say let him fix it and see what happens then maybe complain to others
I only read a few responses that you got, but yes, you got ripped off and no i wouldn't let him near my house again..Is this fellow licensed,bonded,insured? If so, report, if not there's not much better buisness bureau can do.. It's not like you can strip a license if he aint got one. Sorry to be such a wet blanket.All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
read further - for the amt of work done, the money is right. It is a sloppy spot of work is all.
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Hummm....
I never heard of a licensed painter.... must be a regional thing.
Around here, you can't get insurance for an unlicensed business.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
Here they don't have licenses for stuff like that... You can get a GC license, a public road contractor license, public utility contractor license, or become a licensed plumber, electrician or HVAC guy. OTOH painters, siders, carpenters, drywall guys, concrete guys, flooring guys, gutter guys, masons, roofers, landscapers - there is no license for those. Then there are also privilege licenses for the various municipalities, but that is just a way to get you to give them 10 or $15 bucks every year - there is no other meaning to those. OTOH every subcontractor I hire must fill out a W-9 form and have insurance. The way our accounting system is set up, without a current cert of insurance and tax id, the sub can't get paid. Also, our insurance company won't let us hire uninsured subs and they have annual (semi-annual?) audits to check.
Here I don't have to bother with a license as a trade specialist (finish carpentry). They will even let me hang drywall, but I'm not allowed to touch mud and tape or paint...dern it all.If I add a paint brush to all those carpentry tools, then I have to be a licensed contractor. Ironically my painter is a licensed GC and so is my plumber. If the job needs a license, I work for the painter or plumber. ;o)
<<Ironically my painter is a licensed GC and so is my plumber. If the job needs a license, I work for the painter or plumber. :o) >> Basswood, If I'm reading you right your saying if the job requires a permit, the painter or plumber pulls the permit, and you sub the job out from them. No offense intended, but that sounds backwards to me.
95% of what I do is as a trim carpentry sub. Most jobs that need permits have GC's pulling them and hiring me.Once in a while a HO contacts me directly, and if the job requires a permit, I refer the job to one of the GC's I work with and they sub the trim back to me. If the job is a bathroom, I have the plumber (that is also a licensed GC) take the referral, etc.I prefer to not be responsible for the overall job and just like to ply my specialty.
It sounds like you have a good niche doing finish carpentry.And, I have to agree that not wearing the GC hat = fewer headaches.
I like just working with wood...let the GC's work with the HO'sToday, I broke the law and played in the mud (mudding a bullnosed outside corner on a 6-1/2" crown install):
BW, That looks like a fun project.I just saw your thread below and will be following it.You should put a patent on it and call it...Crowninacan :0)
I guess so.. I don't know. I know that here in Alaska short of getting a GC with residential endorsement, you can get what is called a specialty license in which you can perform three different "trades" (framing,insulation,sheetrock..)So there:):):)All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
I'd expect better from myself, but then I'm not a pro.
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How much work was done ?
How much did you pay ?
Was the guy working out of the trunk of a buick ?
Politics: the blind insulting the blind.
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The work was not that extensive. Just a front portico and some dormers were painted, the rest of my house has siding, unfortunately
The woodwork and painting of it and the dormers of the top of the house came to about 6k.
I found this guy using http://www.servicemagic.com/ I thought they screened people enough that I could trust them. This guy had a ton of great references - obviously from his relatives.
6k! I am hoping that was a lot of dormers very high on a tough roof.
Hang in there.
From here, yes, it looks like you got ripped off.Well, so far.Depends on whether they actually fix the problems or not.Even then, you paid well, to dearly...I'd suggest azek for the replacement, and bin or kilz to prime the knots, as a couple others here have suggested.For the price you paid, I wouldn't let it go with a simple call to the BBB. Absolutely call servicemagic and register a complaint.Let them know you are considering calling the BBB on both the painter, and on them, as well. If that doesn't work, threaten them with court.But don't let them make you feel powerless.And don't settle for slipshod work.
Politics: the blind insulting the blind.
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Rosa, if you could post some longer shots of the worked on areas, and can explain exactly what was done, it might help, before we jump all over these guys.Edit to add... Does Service Magic warranty their service folks work? If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
Edited 5/7/2008 7:06 pm ET by Snort
What I am about to say is based on supposition only from seeing your photos, and from forty years doing this work. I could be wrong.I don't see good carpentry there. Those joints were filled with caulk to begin with, so they were never cut tight at the get go. A lot of painters do some carpentry and caulk filled joints is a trademark signature for them. glue should have gone into a tight fitting joint there before assembly and nailing.Knot bleed is not a serious problem. Sealing knots with shelac based sealer like Bin is standard practice after the primer coat. Sometimes it can take two coats of BIN to seal them. No problem.What bothers me looking at them is that there are far too many knots there, and some almost look loose, like the one down low on the right just over the stone base. That looks to me like #3 or #4 pine, which is often sold green and not fully seasoned.That point goes to my next one - that this would not be pulling apart this soon if it were dry seasoned wood, in my opinion. Dry wood, backprimed before nailing up is standard. but you should realize if you are being billed hourly that backpriming adds to time spent and billed.One more thing to ponder. I hate to say this since you are so upsot already, but most times, with trim nailed in place, even if it is green and drying/moving, it is not likely to pull away that much if it is nailed snug.
You said they did this because of finding rot. I suspect that you have not only found rot at the surface boards they replaced, but the underlying is soft and punky also, to the degree that it is unable to hold a nail. If I were on site there looking this over with you, I would take a long slim knife like a fillet knife, or an ice pick, and slide it into that joint to see how far before I find solid wood. If I wiggled it around 3-4" in and black or dark brown punk wood fell out, I would know that you need more than paint and a cover up.Whether you gotr screwed depoends on your deal with him, what is being charged for how much work, at what rate, etc.
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Looking at the photos ( hard to say of course )it looks like those
miters are new wood to new wood.
Seams like the columns were stripped back to the framing.
I'm guessing wet wood and very sloppy cuts.
Yes, you got ripped off.
Neither oil based or latex primer will stop bleed through of knots. What is required is a shellac based primer such as BIN. This mistake is common among DIYs but totally unacceptable from anyone who claims to be a professional painter. BIN makes several primers and each of them come with a chart on the can showing the best primer to use for each particular job. Go to Home Depot and see for yourself. This isn't rocket science.
As for the wood, its hard to judge since you don't say which pieces were replaced. I'll hazard a guess and say that the wood is fine, but the installation is poor. From what I see, the mitered returns were cut too small and the gap filled with interior latex caulking. Since then moisture has gotten into the joint and mushroomed the wood. I also don't see any mechanical fasteners (nails) although it could simply be the picture.
The knots can be covered with a shellac primer then top coated again.
Shellac primer is easily identified by its powerful odor.
As for the wood, if it firmly attached then inject the joint with PAINTABLE silicone caulking, allow to dry then topcoat. If the wood comes off easily, cut your losses and get someone else to do it properly.
toolman65
It would be great if you could post a picture of the front of your home so we could see the extent of the work on the portico and dormers. I am interested to see like the other poster said how tough the dormers and roof were to work on. 6k seems like it might be high.
I would think it is high based on the miter work in the first pic. The joint isn't heven close to being tight, or right, and it is obvious the painter caulked it which is ok workmanship but caulk won't hide that joint for long.
Webby
"it is obvious the painter caulked it which is ok workmanship "I'll totally disagree with that if I understand what you are saying.Any joint like that if made right in the first place will not have room for caulk! How could you call it OK workmanship?
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I've always wondered about hiring painters who supply carpentry services too. I guess it's common in the home pepair business? I mean it looked like it was more than just a few pieces. And I agree that the material used wasn't very good and the miters should have been glued. Also, my first thought was that maybe the wood was fairly wet when installed, hence the shrinkage...
may i suggest that, if as i suspect, you'll have to have the miters replaced, that you have them do it with azek or some other synthetic trim. expansion/contraction issues as well as knot issues are gone.
love it on my house, painted looks like wood.
It looks like they might have used cheap pressure treated lumber that was still wet, which shrank as it dried and the corners opened up. If you're familiar with pressure treated lumber, the stuff sold at Home Depot and Menards is soaking wet when purchased. As it dries after installation it shrinks, warps and cracks. It's also packed with knots.
To fix it, they should replace the wood with good quality pressure treated lumber, such as Wolmanized brand, or with a synthetic material as mentioned in the previous posts. If they use new wood, it should be free of any knots. Pieces that small should not have knots at all. Then it should be primed with shellac, such as Zinsser Bullseye shellac.
Caulking is best done after the shellac is dry, but some prefere to caulk first. Either way, it should be followed by 2 coats of paint.
It sounds like $6k is a lot of money for the work you had done, though I don't know the circumstances - whether some of it was especially hard to reach, lots of scraping and priming, etc.. Buy typically what you described I would probably charge half that, materials and the repair included. That said, you are totally within reason to insist they come back and fix it the right way.
Regarding the Better Business Bureau, don't file your report until you've given everybody a chance to make things right. To my experience most businesses don't respond to threats to report them to the BBB. However, the tend to respond real quick when the BBB contacts them.
I guess what I'm saying is give them a chance to fix it. If they don't, report the matter to BBB.
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Rosa
Doesnt the contractor have to be a member of the BBB in order to report them? I'm not sure how that works but I cant imagine it being a usable threat to all contractors.
Doug
Wow. Strong responses. I know that we are all professionals here, but haven't we all messed up on a job before? I know I have. I loved it when the customer called and said there was a problem. I would rather spend hours to fix something than have all that bad press.
I would let the contractor repair the problem. Ask him why he thinks it happened and how is he going to stop it from happening again. After all that, then pursue an alternate plan.
"It is what it is."
You make a really good point, Mike. Just posing the question as "Was I ripped off?" really brought out the worst in us. It's totally true that it could be a simple matter of the painter not knowing it would do that.
Yes in deed, I have made similar mistakes. And if the customer called me up accusing me of being a rip off, I would be really offended and propbably would tell them if that's how they feel they can take it to court. On the other hand, when a customer calls and tells me some of my work isn't holding up, I'm more than happy to get over there and fix it as soon as possible.
Rosa, don't call him and make threats. Rather, just tell him what's going on with that repair and be real nice to him. Chances are, he thought it would be okay. When he sees it's not, he will be happy to fix it and he'll appreciate you're patience and kindness.
Mike is right. It could have been a simple matter of bad judgement on his part. Give him the chance to make it write before assuming he ripped you off.
As for the price, you have to do some math. How much did the materials probably cost and how many hourse of labor went into the job? Nobody here can determine what it should have cost without that information. --------------------------------------------------------
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I swear, you guys are the best.
First, I want to thank you all for your professional input. I did not threaten him, that is not really how I roll, but I did send him an email saying I was upset, and I included the pictures you guys saw. He called back immediately and said he thinks the wood shrunk and he will replace it, and he will be using a block for the knots showing through.
Below are some pictures of the work in progress so you can get an idea - the one with my big ole thumb shows the front dormer that was scraped and painted, ( there are two smaller side ones that he also painted), and then the other two show the extent of the rotted wood that needed to be replaced.
I have calmed down considerably from reading what you guys posted about his willingness to come back, your suggestions of what needs to be done, and your pointing out that every messes up from time to time.
I'll let you know how it turns out!
~ Rosa
Thank You. Your "Dormer" is in fact a "Gable" so..this helps.
The $$ of painting is about , but not inclusive of landscapeing and zipcode and cost of doing work associated w/ the scope at hand.
I don't see/feel that you got ripped off, I see that the materials used were inferior, and that reflects poorly on the carpenters chosen.
But all in all, I don't see a "rip off" here, just my opinion.
I hope it gets resolved amicably for you all.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
All but one puppies in happy homes..just one to go..whew!
Sphere is correct, that is a gable wall and so is more extensive work than a dormer would have been. I still think 6k sounds high, but maybe a few MA folks will chime in with a more accurate read.
I also agree that the materials and workmanship don't look great. It appears they used untreated pine/spruce. I also don't care for the joints in the vertical trim details. Those should have been full length pieces.
Given the underlying wood that was used, the priming, painting, and caulking details are even more important to be sure this job lasts more than a couple years.
Let us know how it turns out for you.
It looks like they used d select pine for the trim around your door which is a suitablle material for the project at hand, also is the least expensive.
The problem looks to be the prep before the installation. What may have helped the situation is if they had preprimed all sides of the material before installing, as well as priming all cuts that are made.
FWIW if you are to ever repair/replace the exterior trim on your house definately think about spending the extra $ on a PVC based material, such as AZEK. For the extra $ its more than worth it.
If he had said before had "for an extra $500 we could use AZEK which will gaurantee no bug and no rot as well as a silky smooth finish" would you hav accepted?
As far as the price goes, my theory is if you are happy with how the job was run and comfortable with the amount paid than it was a win win for all parties involved.
Everyone knows someone whos brother in laws best friend does construction and he could have done it cheaper.
Price isn’t everything.
Was he friendly? Was his crew friendly? Did they explain how and what they were doing? Did they keep the jobsite clean? Did they meet/surpass your expectations? Do you feel that you have made a friend and confidant in the construction business? Do you value his opionion and would you call him for referances for other trades that he may not do? Would you refer him to frindes/family? These are all questions I hope are answered "yes" after I leave a job.
Matt
I have never seen D-select with more than a small pin-knot in 10-12 feet of board. That work shows half a dozen knots in a couple feet of lumber. No way it is D-select!
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From what I saw in your last pictures that corner post repair should have been treted as it is in contact with concrete. Also all that pine should have been primed and flashed and caulked along the base . To keep mostier out. On a job like this I would only use Azek or Kleer pvc trim for replacment.
Edited 5/8/2008 10:20 pm ET by mgard38
Thanks for helping me keep up!Looks like they did indeed go deep enough top replace the underlying rot in framing
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It's odd to me to see a house with a bunch of wood trim details with a little aluminum trim here and there, some vinyl siding and wood windows and doors.
A lady I work for had payed some guy $2,000 (!) to build a simple gate and then after the rain, when it swelled so badly that she couldn't open or close it, he got offended when she called to ask him to come fix it...said he could probably get to it sometime in June...
I am sorry to hear that. Everyone deserves the opportunity to fix any problem they might be responsible for. I believe that the simple sharing of information should be our first response. If it is met with prompt attention, then great! If it is met with resistance, then you need to reply in kind.
"It is what it is."
Actually, I'm lucky the guy was a jerk, because she hired me to fix it, and then found a bunch more work for me to do...:) I have the same philosophy you do...if you show people you have a heart and a conscience, (even if you screw up occasionally) they'll usually respond in a positive way...
"Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results" "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" A. Einstein
Jencar, how are you doing, i haven't seen one of your posts for awhile now.
You may remember me as "skids" when i moved i changed ISP's and screenames,
we worked together for Kasler in santa barbara in 89?
Are you still in california? how is your family? you must have been busy, like myself and not posting much. You mention a lady you work for, are you still in the trades?
Hi Skids...
Once you're in the trades, (and have a garage full of power tools) it's hard to just walk away...besides, it kind of gets in your blood.
Lady I mentioned bought a house in LA and goes back and forth between here and Tucson. (She wrote the screenplay for Brokeback Mountain) She's understandably leery of hiring people to work on her house, so I feel honored that she trusts me.
I just reactivated my contractors "B" license, and for Mother's Day, I hung fence panels on posts that my son and I poured on Friday...so yes, I guess you could say I'm still doing this!Are you still a union carp? I've been wondering if union jobs are still happening...
Take care,
Jen
no longer a "carp" at all. ever since before Kasler I was with local 34 piledrivers, divers, carpenters, bridge wharf and dock builders in the SF bay area. they were one of the best unions I was ever affiliated with but when they were taken over by the carpenters international (politics, long story) I left. the local 34 hands were a tight knit group like family, the international is like a corporation, it really sucks. I got pretty high up before I left, delegate to several council's.
went to work for the ironworkers on permit, welding certs got me in, and eventually bought a card. heavy industrial got slow after 9/11 so I got my contractors B license and built a few specs. eventually left california and started with boilermakers working both nuke and fossil power, with the occasional refinery thrown in for good measure.
heavy industrial is booming again, especially in power, so work is good, but you have to travel, which is tough on the family. I am now married for the second time to a great lady and things are good there, 5 wonderful kids altogether, two boys from previous marriage, and 3 girls now. you remember that softball game we played in santa barbara, i had the two boys with me then.
thats awesome that you are still in cali and working, and with your son, that is great. did you ever do a withdrawal from the carp union? I wonder if we will ever see a dime of all those benefits we paid in. I hear horror stories about how if you don't stay working carp union they just go away. I know I got vested but I still don't think I will see any of it.
do you ever see chris norton or kevin or mccutcheon or any of those guys? I saw hans working in the bay area in the mid 90's I think. also there was a laborer foreman whose brother always ran the hose at pours I saw in nor cal, but i forget his name.
Wow...you've gone a long way in 15 years! I remember that softball game..
Haven't seen Kevin (the mechanic used to call him "3 finger Louie") or Tom, but I spoke with Chris Norton a while back to ask him to sign one of my Certificates of Experience to get my B license. He wasn't working for Kasler anymore, but had a higher position working for another big concrete co.
I think the labor foreman's name was "Dimas" short for Nicodimas (the devil)
I worked harder on that job than any other in my life, but strange thing is, it's one of my best memories...(besides, met my husband of 17 years while kicking around in Santa Barbara)
Happy that you have a great wife! Sure improves the quality of life...
Take care
On the money Mike.....damn, but these guys are quick on the draw.
I recently completed a $13,000 exterior renovation for a woman. A peice of base moulding around the bottom of a porch post opened at the miter a week after I was done.
Thankfully, she called me to come have a look-see before bothering with the BBB.
Aint that what warrentees are all about?
I also love how guys immediately assume she was "ripped off".
Can't get anyone on this forum to offer a "ballpark" on drywall per board......but a couple of pictures of an open miter joint and suddenly everyone knows she payed too much.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I agree that people here can be too quick to slam other people's work sometimes. Best to wait and see how the situation is rectified - that is the true indicator.
re >> Can't get anyone on this forum to offer a "ballpark" on drywall per board......but a couple of pictures of an open miter joint and suddenly everyone knows she payed too much. << I'm paying $19 a board (12'), no extras. Level 4 finish. I buy the board - they buy everything else. That's for new construction. 2 pointups.
< edited for spelling >
Edited 5/9/2008 7:25 am ET by Matt
"Can't get anyone on this forum to offer a "ballpark" on drywall per board......but a couple of pictures of an open miter joint and suddenly everyone knows she payed too much."LOL! That might have to be sent to the quote of the year department! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Knots need to be sealed with shellac. I've never had another primer that will seal them, even though many say they will. And shellac drys in 30 minutes, so there is no excuse that it takes too long.
BIN makes a spray can of white pigmented shellac just for this purpose. However, I find it clogs easily. I just use a disposable brush or a small foam roller and paint white pigmented shellac over the knots.
The work is not of acceptable quality for anyone charging what you paid. The quality of work I see in your photos is worth no more than $15 an hour, even in Massachussetts.
I don't know how your painter billed the job, but however he did it, here's how it breaks down in the real world:
If you paid $6000 total, that means you paid at least $4000 for labour, because I don't see more than two grand worth of paint and trim stock in those photos. That's not $55/gallon stain up there, nor is it expensive clear architectural trim. The paint is what is often referred to in the trade as 'landlord quality' and is commonly available at under $20/gal. And the trim is mostly flat 1x and 5/4 stock; in #1&2 pine that would be a maximum of about $3-4 per board foot up here; your mileage may vary but not by enough to change the basic equation.
I also don't see more than a hundred man-hours on that job, which means the guy was charging you at least $40 per hour. That is not as much as you'd have to pay a first-class custom builder or painting contractor, but it is substantially more than what you should be paying Joe Paintbrush and His Buddy while they learn their trades.
To give these guys all the breaks possible, I will say that 'everybody has to start somewhere' and that if they're honest and persevere and learn from their mistakes, they could one day become reliable tradesmen.
But mistakes of that magnitude should not have cost you that much.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
You have to make a lot of assumptions to look at one picture and know how much work was involved in prepping / stripping that paint job. I lean to thinking you are mostly right, but would not be that certain about it.
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Oh, yes, you are quite correct. I assumed a whole bunch of stuff in order to come up with that guesstimate.
But like you, I spend a fair amount of my time working on houses in precisely that kind of condition, so I'd feel safe betting a couple of beer that my assumptions weren't completely out in left field.
Either way, unless there's something really major the OP hasn't mentioned yet, six grand to paint that place is definitely champagne pricing. And that ain't champagne work.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
dang man, ripped 'er a new one he did.
No wonder... View Image...is what it is.
be depending on what yer definition of is is.
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I don't get how I ripper her any new one, bro. Maybe Joe Paintbrush oughta be takin' care where he sits down, but not the OP.
Her I feel sorry for, but she asked a straight question and I gave her a straight answer.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....