I am going to build a home this summer for my family and am having a hard time with room dimensions.
Bathrooms being a big concern(I have kind of going with an 8×10 if laundry is not present)(I have also been counting on needing a 3×4 space for the comode). I have heard bedrooms should be like 10×12. Kitchens should have about a 15-20 foot walking triangle for working space. Livingrooms/dens 12×16 minimum.
Am I crazy on these.I am trying to build modestly but don’t want to cram my self into something I have worked so hard for only to hate it because it’s a doll house….
Replies
The size of your house will be limited mostly by the size of your wallet. If I were in your position, I would be figuring out:
Divide 1 by 2, and you have a rough idea of how much square footage you can get. Once you have that, start playing with floorplans and see what you can do.
I'll beg to differ with Dave45's simplistic approach. If you really want to create a wonderful and functional space that's no bigger than you really need, consider these principles to make small work:
Eighteen Design Principles to Make Square Feet Work Harder
— Robert ####
Before you begin designing, do this four-part exercise in self-knowledge.
Then, when you begin designing or working with a designer, use as many of the following principles as possible.
Of course these guidelines aren't absolute, and sometimes the exceptions are as intriguing as the rules! Nevertheless, I believe that in well-crafted houses that embody most of these principles, small spaces can be intensified to become richer and more enjoyable. A vibrant level of complexity will automatically unfold. And it might just be that houses made in this way will be understood to be a contribution to the well-being of the planet.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
"Eighteen Design Principles to Make Square Feet Work Harder"
I assume the headline was written by someone other than the writer who, though a good writer, apparently cannot count higher than one.
Rich Beckman
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It is customary to give reference to the source when copying and pasting.http://oikos.com/esb/52/smallefficient.htmlhttp://oikos.com/library/naturalbuilding/design_principles.html.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
It is customary to give reference to the source when copying and pasting.
First, I've never been "customary", and I consider all information on the web to be open source.
Second, I cut and pasted those references from my hard drive where I keep thousands of files on design and building. I don't always keep track of the original sources. Thanks for reminding me where they came from.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I think we have all forgotten to discuss the site I.E. location. So many factors are dependent on where you are building that it really should come ahead of some of our other concerns don't you think?
"I consider all information on the web to be open source."
Cool. Just redefine the world to meet your convenience. That's gotta make life a lot less complicated.
Rich Beckman
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Just redefine the world to meet your convenience.
Your flippant statement implies that someone else has already defined the world and that everyone else is obliged to accept it as gospel, and that my motivation must be as shallow as "convenience" rather than consistency with a moral standard which is based on the highest good of all.
The originating purpose of the WWW was the broad dissemination and sharing of information, allowing a democratization of knowledge and the globalization of the free exchange of ideas.
And, by the way, where I had the author's name, I included it in my post - but this "politically-correct" forum wouldn't print his last name because it was a three-letter word that used to mean happy and has come to mean homosexual.
Edited 2/9/2008 7:10 am ET by Riversong
"Your flippant statement implies that someone else has already defined the world and that everyone else is obliged to accept it as gospel,"It has. Not the whole world, just that part that has to do with other people work."This article appeared in Energy Source Builder #52 August 1997,
©Copyright 1997 Iris Communications, Inc.".
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Your flippant statement implies that someone else has already defined the world and that everyone else is obliged to accept it as gospel...
Maybe not the world. But the sites terms and conditions have been defined. You agreed to them when you signed on.
Taunton Gospel.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
The "Taunton Gospel" or "terms of use" only requires no violation of copyright laws. US copyright law recognizes "fair use" for non-commercial research or educational purposes.
The "Taunton Gospel", however, is far more liberal than my standard as it allows Taunton to use our own postings for any purpose whatsoever.
Fair Use has a number of limitations.http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.htmlhttp://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter7/7-b.html#1http://home.earthlink.net/~cnew/research.htm.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Fair Use has a number of limitations.
Fair Use was not included in US copyright legislation, but was determined by court challenges to exclusive commercial control of ideas.
The whole concept of Fair Use is that Copyright has a number of limitations. You've got it backwards.
Cearly you did nto read any of the references.But outside of the any copyright laws more important you are presenting other peoples work as you own..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Cearly you did nto read any of the references.
First, I did not need you references to know the issues around copyright law.
But outside of the any copyright laws more important you are presenting other peoples work as you own.
Second, never did I represent anybody else's work as my own - where available, the author's name was included (as I already stated). I was merely sharing resources relevent to ths OP's questions.
Third, this is completely off-topic, you have hijacked this thread and you should have the decency to stop pushing your personal agenda and return this thread to its topic.
Edited 2/9/2008 6:26 pm ET by Riversong
You hijacked it when you copied other people's work without giving recognition.Anything that anyone publishes (and yes writing a message on a forum is a form of publishing) is assumed to be their own work unless they specify otherwise..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"my motivation must be as shallow as "convenience" rather than consistency with a moral standard which is based on the highest good of all."Whatever lets you sleep at night.
Rich Beckman
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as IdahoDon said, go into different buildings (friends houses etc.). When you see something you like, take careful measurements and notes. that way when you're trying to put down your own design on paper, you'll have a better idea of whether a space will work for you. If you're trying to design yourself a kitchen but you're not sure of the dimensions you want, you can reference the measurements you took from a kitchen you really liked. (for example, "I really liked the way Bobs kitchen had lots of space between the island and the countertops. thats what I want") If you took measurements of Bobs kitchen you'll know exactly what that distance between the island and the countertops was.
Here's another take on the same subject:
Small, Efficient and Beautiful
Big houses consume more resources than small ones. They use more wood, more carpet, more drywall and more concrete. They cover more ground and generate more construction debris. When completed, they will require more energy to heat and cool.
A house's size has a greater impact on energy and resource use than any other factor, including insulation, equipment efficiency and windows.
"Building small makes 'natural sense.'" says Duo Dickinson, a Connecticut architect and author. "First, you build what's needed and then what's wanted. The problem is that many people don't know the difference."
It would be impossible to get universal agreement on how "small" a small house should be. Prison cells are small, but hardly livable. "For the designer, the key is to make the house fit the clients," says Dickinson. "A house fits when living in it is effortless." Like a tailor fitting a garment to the exact dimensions of a human form, a designer should strive to size building elements for the occupants' values and way of living.
Spec homes can benefit from many of these ideas, too, although the house may not achieve the same level of space efficiency. By using design savvy, instead of adding space, a spec builder can make a house feel better, work better and sell faster.
Space Design Savvy Tips
Smaller is often better, but actually cutting square feet out of a house plan can be difficult. Here are a few ideas that can help. You may find that several of these ideas can be used in a given plan, although you certainly wouldn't use them all at the same time.
While there has been growing interest in environmentally friendly construction, it seems that many of these projects are just too big. On the other hand, there is a smaller countertrend. Some architects and builders see smaller homes as a benefit. Smaller homes are challenging to design, but often more rewarding.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
As for specific room sizes, you might keep a tape measure with you as you visit other people's homes and see what feels right to you. The following range of sizes gives some idea what's considered "acceptable", though some of these are larger than what building codes consider a minimum functional size.
ROOM SIZES
The size of a room is determined by the function of the room and by the furnishings that go into the room. The list of typical room sizes shown below should be used ONLY as a guide for general planning purposes and to determine overall square footage of a proposed plan.
FOYER
ENTRY CLOSETS (24" minimum inside dimensions)
POWDER ROOM
GREAT ROOM
LIVING ROOM -
DINING ROOM
FAMILY ROOM
RECREATION ROOM
MEDIA ROOM
KITCHEN
EATING AREA
PANTRY
LAUNDRY
UTILTITY/MUD ROOM
REAR ENTRY CLOSETS (24" minimum inside dimensions)
GARAGE
WORKSHOP
STORAGE ROOM
HOME OFFICE / WORK ROOM
MASTER BED ROOM
WALK-IN CLOSETS (24" minimum inside dimensions)
MASTER BATHROOM
BEDROOMS
CLOSETS (24" minimum inside dimensions)
GUEST BEDROOM
GUEST CLOSETS (24" minimum inside dimensions)
FULL BATH
GUEST BATHROOM
LINEN CLOSETS (12" minimum inside dimensions)
DEN
STUDY
LIBRARY
Large - 16 x 20
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Thank you all for input, and the small b-fest at the end there. At this point in my "design process" I have a few certain ideas(that yes, were infact approved by the wife first), but really needed a few builders to confirm what I may or maynot have already known. (I am down with broken bones until summer so I have no work boys to run stuff infront of on a daily basis).
You might want to get a copy of A Pattern Langue http://www.amazon.com/Pattern-Language-Buildings-Construction-Environmental/dp/0195019199From the library. If they don't have it get it on inter-library loan.I don't agree with all of it, but it is interest look at the usage of a homes and how the parts relate..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I agree , good book to read through and garner thoughts from.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Captain,
Build as small as you can, but study your decisions b/4 you finalize them. We lived in a 900 sf house b/4 we built. It was easy to want to expand that for a family of 3. Open areas downstairs with the living/dining/kitchen pretty much one big room with "suggested" boundaries like level changes, closet/island. You know how you live, you know what you got. Take a day and layout your dream rooms in the area you're in now if you can. Transfer that to paper.
Cooking doesn't take up much room/storage is a must. Opening up the kitchen (where all those guests seem to want to congregate) helps give it a big feeling.
8x10 bath can be spacious if laid out properly. Do you need that much room? How many baths are you thinking of? We've got 3-sort of. 2 up for the girls, 1/2 down close to the laundry/mudroom/man shower.
10x12 BR isn't much.
Best of luck.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I just got back from a cruise and the full bath was about 4x5. I loved it. I had to have an extended stay on the throne and I was able to lay my head on the vanity top and sleep.
I could spend a couple months every year in that cabin...if you'll pay the bill.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
There are few "living" spaces more well-designed and compact than boat cabins.
A California company that applies those principles to truly small houses offers some little darlings: http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/
View Image View Image
View Image
Edited 2/7/2008 10:21 pm ET by Riversong
Bring your own chow next time?
Joe H
The chow was great but lets face it: they are feeding 4700 people every day. My experience there was about equal to what I experience at home here. The food was great. I only gained 7 pounds though..I was careful. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Go to some open houses this weekend and take your tape measure. Often the rooms still have beds and whatnot in place and you'll know right away what fits the big picture in your head.
There is no substitute for seeing and walking in a space to know if it's what you want.
Good luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I think River song has some very helpful info that will help you design a practical and livable home. Yet I have found that identifying your budget first is vital. This has obvious implications as to size, finishing choices etc. Any time you can define your parameters it will guide you through the less clear decisions.
Riversong is giving seminars again! And he and the others referenced have it right!
I design and direct construction on a couple of high end homes a year and more often than not I'm telling the new owners to go out and walk through a few spec houses and visualize using each room. Then make a list of what you like and dislike about your current home. Usually they have been in some overblown home and thought that's what they want.....until I show them how much space(square footage) is wasted on poorly thought out layout. ("I really don't think you understand how huge a 28x42, 2story family room is". I say that a lot. ).
Now I will defer to the seminars provided by others. Apply them and you'll find the process a lot of fun. Seriously.
Oh, if you are married get your lady involved up front...her needs will differ a lot from yours.
ciao, ted
Oh, if you are married get your lady involved up front...
That's the best advice anyone has offered thus far.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
CaptianMayhem.
Small and compact certainly has it's appeal, however too often it's done for budget reasons rather than for the more important lifestyle reasons..
Look at closests as an example.. you can make large closets and just toss stuff in willy nilly untill it's full.
Or you can make small closets hold everything you want to keep out of site if you design them to hold exactly those items and nothing more..
So you need to understand who you are first and then decide on the approach..
If you are neat and tidy then small and compact will work for you.. I lived for a long time in a 16x8 foot travel trailer. You can't believe the stuff I had stored in that place and yet it always wound up neat and tidy. It had a bathtub and full bathroom as well as well as two beds, a full kitchen etc..
True to get anything required I removed a lot of stuff first and then put it all back, but I accepted those limitations.. ( my wife on the other hand hated the place and the fact that she endured it as long as she did is testamony more about her tolerance than anything else)..
Now how much bigger?
Well remember it's always cheaper if you work to 4 foot multiples.. don't make a room 5 feet because that wastes 3 feet of a sheet of plywood which you may never use anywhere else.. Most material is made on a 4x8 size.. so work with those..
Next,
Control your costs.. don't buy stuff that several people have to handle before you get it. An example is wood..
Some sawmill makes some wood and it's shipped to someone who can dry it, sort it ,and grade it.. then it goes to someone who bundles it together and sells it to a middleman who sells it to the store that ultimately sells it to you..
Eliminate all those middle men.. Buy it yourself from the sawmill. I did and saved more than 2/3 of the cost of buying it from a lumberyard or Big Box store like Home Depot or Lowes.
Actually even more than that! because I bought my wood from a sawmill that sells wood to pallet mills and railroad ties.. Hardwood! I used some pretty fancy wood but you could buy Ash right now at extremely modest prices because of the ash borer is tearing thru forests..
Right now the price of mill run ash is 26 cents per bd.ft. according to the hardwoodmarket report. a typical 1500 sq.ft. house could be made with about 10,000 bd.ft. which is $2600.00
Want to double the size of the house and buy 20,000 bd.ft? you will spend $5200.00. Since you are using hardwood you can make flooring, cabinets doors and windows etc.. from it.. OK you'd rather have Oak? white or red? white sells for about 80cent's a bd.ft. While red is closer to a dollar..
There are plenty of other ways to save money building a house.. but they are outside the box..
I have to concur with most of the replies you've gotten so far, especially the lists of guidelines. I've thought for a long time that we are building way beyond our capacity to sustain and much more than we actually need, wasting materials and resources along the way.
I'm a kitchen/bath designer and space planner by trade, and here are my suggestions:
1. Find out what you can afford. Once you know the approx square footage you can pay for you can begin to build a plan within those limitations.
2. In small spaces think "FUNCTION - FUNCTION - FUNCTION"! If you can't get the required furnishings and elements in a space and get people through the space comfortably, it's not going to work and that's money wasted.
3. Know the basic requirements. Go to the library and get the Architectural Graphic Standards book in the reference section. You'll find accepted guidelines for space planning and room sizes as well as standard sizes for all interior furnishings.This is the architect/designer's go-to reference to find out how much space something takes.You've absolutely got to know how big the things are that you need to accommodate in each room.
4. While at the library, check out all the books available for small homes. I especially like Sarah Susanka's "The Not so Big House". For a little psychological background into homes, read "Home: A Short History of an Idea" by Witold Rybczynski. Been out awhile, but should still be available. Look at all the plan books available for houses - you'll find lots of ideas. Start a design file to keep copies and clippings.
5. Assign square footage to spaces according to what's important to you. If you can live with standard bathrooms, do so. If your needs/wants include a shower and a tub in the master bath, then that's what you do. If you don't need a master bedroom big enough for 3 cars (and no one does!), then scale it back to put more in the bath.
6. In the kitchen, the work triangle is a guideline. So much more is involved in a good layout, such as traffic flow, storage, etc. There are lots of books, you can check out the National Kitchen & Bath Association website nkba.org for consumer guidelines, you can always ask me :o) ...Everything in a small kitchen has to work and you need to get the most out of every cabinet. Consider deep drawers and roll-outs for base cabinets to give complete access to all the storage in them. Assign storage for items and provide the right cabinet for them. I can't tell you how many people I know who won't pay for any interior accessory, then go out and spend hundreds on these wire racks to provide better storage in a kitchen they just paid $18,000 for. And, you don't always need cabinets. Lots of very functional kitchens use open shelves and hanging systems for pots & utensils.
7. Borrow light from other rooms whenever possible. Nothing says that all walls have to be solid. Providing interior "windows" or using French doors inside can bring light into all rooms. Likewise, cabinet doors and pantry doors with clear or frosted glass don't stop the eye like a solid door, so the mind thinks the space is bigger.
Hope these help!