Hi All,
I’m wondering if anyone out there has used one of the machines H. Depot or Lowes loans to customers who want to blow in their own cellulose insulation. I’ve got about 600SQ ft of attic space to insulate plus open stud-bays at the gable ends. I figured I’d get a helper to feed the machine from down below. My question is, can these machines get the job done, or is this better left to a pro?
Dave in Rochester NY
Replies
i just did my attic last fall. i had a freind of mine feed the bales , they make a heck of a mess, would definatly recommend a mask and goggles, it does a pretty good job of covering everything, i went through before hand to seal off the leaks i could find and blew in about 30 bales. if you can i would keep the machine outside, or next to an open window with a fan, dust goes everywhere...
Frank
We were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail....
Waylon...
"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."
Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae.
(Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.)
Cicero, De Officiis
I'm curious wyowolf, how long did it take to blow in the 30 bales?Dave
it took us about 3 hours , but my attic was difficult to walk around in so i had to stop every few min to reposition myself. I also agree with what frency said, so far it made a big difference in the upstairs, but none in the downstairs...We were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail....
Waylon...
"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."
Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae.
(Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.)
Cicero, De Officiis
The machines are basically all the same, they do the same job. Mark the depth on the trusses, wear a mask, two workers can blow about 120 bundles in 4-5 hours with set up, the 'pros' blow about 20 bundles per hour from the back of a enclosed truck.
warning,
while blown in celluliose is cheap it has limitations..
It does not insulate if it gets damp or wet.. if it repeated gets damp there is the potential that the fireproofing will leach out.
celluliose loses about 20% of it's insulational value as it settles.
celluliose does not provide any vapor barrier. vapor which finds it's way up from living space below will dampen the insulation dramatically reducing it's insulational value.
If due to your climate there is a great deal of dampness and your attic has soffit vents the celluloise will get damp.
Do not cover any soffit or eve vents with celluliose.
frenchy.. i wish you wouldn't keep repeating something about which you know next to nothing
after about the 50th time , it starts to get oldMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Am I to take it that you disagree with some of the points Frenchy makes about cellulose? If so, why?Dave
frenchy takes an experience on his own house and extrapolates it to a universal.. but he really has no idea about why his insulation got wet..
go to the Regal Industries site and read about cellulose..
or google on cellulose insulation..
best thing since sliced bread..
frenchy is pushing sips and foam .. while denigrating cellulose without a basis in factMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Thanks for the explanation. I would love to do this project myself but I have one potential problem. My house is circa 1850. The attic is unheated and currently uninsulated. The soffits cannot be vented as there is a handhewn beam running horizontally that blocks the rafter bays going out to the eves. Here's what I've done so far: I've spent several days foaming all basement/attic penetrations. I've checked for moisture in the attic - everything's dry. I've gotten estimates for Icynene ($3200.00)
Blown fiberglass to R38 ($1400.00) and I've been absorbing a whole lot of different explanations regarding venting, the various products, etc. I'm feeling a little overwelhmed with all the options, pros and cons, etc. Now I'm investigating cellulose. My question is: If I blew the attic with cellulose and packed it in the rafter bays leading down to where the blocked soffit, would I be creating a monster (moisture and heat-build-up) in my attic?Or, having sealed as many airleaks as I could find, and making sure that bathrooms and stove are vented outdoors, and with a dry basement, should there be a problem just using cellulose in the attic with minimal venting?A long question I know, but one that hopefully has a short answer!
I'd appreciate any feedback Mike...Dave
espo.... good question
the icynene is elegant but expensive and the r-value / inch is not much better than cellulose
moisture in the attic is only a problem if there is an uncontrolled moisture source
if you really have air sealed the ceiling /attic border
if you have your moisture point sources vented outside
if your basement is dry
then you are not going to have a moisture problem in your attic.. Frenchy's contention is that because his part of the country is so wet and humid in the summer that the cellulose absorbs the moisture and retains it and concentrates it..
not true.. i live in coastal RI.. any moisture absorbed by cellulose becomes diffused and then it gives it up when the humidity conditions change with the season..
moisture will continually be absorbed, diffused , and released back to the dry side
the only other problem you MIGHT have is ice damming.. but most (MOST ) ice damming is a result of air leaks from the heated living space into the attic, and warming the underside of the sheathing.. resulting in a thaw/freeze/thaw/ freeze cycle
super insulating with cellulose is not going to let the warm air melt the snow on the roof
the only thaw /freeze will then be by the sun on the roof
so .. the air sealing is very important.. you can smoke test to see how effective you have been with your sealing before you blow your cells
anyways.. the only moisture you have to worry about is from point sources inside the house... thru the basement...leaky plumbing.... or a leaky roof
moisture laden outside air is just not a factor
edit:
here's my bottom line... if i were no longer required to vent my roofs by code, i would no longer be venting my roofs..
but when we do vent it is always a balanced soffit/ridge vent with ShingleVentII ridge
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/15/2005 3:45 pm ET by Mike Smith
Mike, I know this is done around here frequently, but what's your take on adding cellulose over blown in fiberglass? I've got about 8"-10" of blown fiberglass and I'm planning on adding another foot or so of cellulose. You see any problems? I'm adequately vented and moisture is not a concern.You're almost as paranoid as the people that're trying to kill me.
the only potential problem i see is moisture getting into the fiberglass.. especially around the perimeter of the attic where it meets the wall plates/rafter ends
i would blower /smoke test first and make sure no air is leaking into the attic
if there is, the moist air stream can hit an area that would be below the dew point and condensation could occur
besides the air sealing... you MIGHT rake the fiberglass back from the perimeter edge so the cells can completely fill those areas.. the cells are better able to absorb , diffuse , and release moisture..
other than that , i'd leave the fiberglass there and blow over it... your total R-value will be the combination of the two, so you do get benfit from the fiberglass that is there.. besides , it's nasty taking it outMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks, Mike.You're almost as paranoid as the people that're trying to kill me.
Mike, Thank you so much for the analysis! It confirms/supports the gist of everything I've read and heard. I went out to the cellulose manufacturer site you recommended and learned a bit there too. I'm going to do the blower test before I install the cellulose. And then periodically I'll check the attic for any signs of problems. I'm grateful for your time!Dave
you're welcome ... pass it onMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I've been "smoke-testing" by crawling around with a stick of incense in the attic with the attic hatch closed. Is this what you're talking about or did you have something else in mind?Again, Dave
you want to be inside the conditioned space..
see if you can pressurize the interior ( a make-shift blower door ) see where the smoke escapes..
or on a windy day .. one side of the house will be pressurized..
any place you can feel a draft is an air leak
the energy guys that do this for a living are much better at it than me.. and thier blower doors and smoke candles don't miss muchMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Please show me in my post where I stated anything incorrectly. Does damp cellulose provide a good insulation? Does cellulose provide a vapor barrier? Can you leech out the fire retardant in cellulose? Does cellulose settle? ANYTHING?
I know that you prefer celllulose and since it's a free country you can express your opinion..
Frenchy, stick to what you know.
Joe H
I'm not going to argue some of your points, but you're just plain wrong when you say that cellulose loses 20% of its r-value to settling. The r-values published on the bags account for this settling. If it says R-40 for 10 inches, then it means R-40 after that 10 in. has settled.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Andy,
with respect,
FHB #56 page 39 top of the middle column.
"Of the three types celluslose will settle the most (typically about 20%by height). Because cellulose loses some of it's R value as it settles........
There is no question that cellulose loses some of its R-value as it settles. However, the cellulose insulation R-values are stated for the anticipated settled density. Another way of saying it is that when first installed, cellulose has an R-value that is greater than advertised. So what if it loses R-value when it settles if you're eventually getting what you need?
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Edited 3/16/2005 1:45 pm ET by ANDYENGEL
Andy,
Untill it gets damp or wet.
Actually I'm argueing since my experiance was with celulose that would get damp and then never dry out untill summer..
Depending on a lot of factors cellulose might very well be a good insulation.. I suspect in dry western states it's really OK. Perhaps because we have well over 10,000 lakes (and I live right on one) my experiance was much worse than other northern locations.
I don't really think the fire issue has a great deal of merit although it is mentioned in that same article.
Sure, you can rent a machine and get a helper and do the job yourself. I found out the hard way that the machine works way better by turning it on and adding the cellulose a bit at a time rather than putting in the whole bag and then turning on the machine.
Just my experience, your milage may vary...
Lefty and very Dusty
frenchy.. how many times do i have to say this... your climate had nothing to do with wet or damp cellulose.. you had a wet / damp house..
no matter what kind of insulation you had it was going to be wet..
you're blaming the cellulose for your wet house.. get over it..
if you've corrected the wetness problems then cellulose would be a perfect insulation for you..
and don't gimme the "land 'o lakes " crap.. it is certainly not as wet as the pacific northwest.. nor even coastal New EnglandMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We've discussed this to the limit.. I've thus far found a flawless vapor barrier. The only source of moisture in that attic was from the vents!
If my house was the only one to ever experiance this I could consede your point but I've seen other homes with this problem. While I cannot testify as to their vapor barrier they too describe it as complete..
bs...
the moisture comming in thru the vents must have been in the form of snow..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Do you understand what the psychrometric chart is?And how used to study moisture in cases like this?
Yes, definitely you will need a helper - one person in the attic, and someone feeding the bails in the blower.
A word of advice, don't wait till the hottest day in the summer to craw around your attic, and don't touch your eyebrows. The cellulose will stick to the sweat, soaking it all up - up until you rub 'em. Then you release the flow of stinging fire retardant into your eyes...
Phat
Never underestimate your ability to overestimate your ability
Lessons Earned Linger Longer Than Lessons Learned, eh?
Great Pic!
it waas worth the money to pay the pros. its hot and messy.
A ton of info in thread # 39075
Sorry, I don't know how to make it a link. just put that number in using the 'search' function. over 40 posts !
You can update the cost of the bags of Cocoon to $7.48 now from the $6.50 they were last year.
It will take you about an hour to blow 600' of cell. I do about three jobs a week with a small Krendl do it yourself rig.
Why? Because I pay by the foot to have it installed. Most people don't respect a 20,000 - 50,000 dollar machine unless they pay for it.
Why cell and not fiberglass? Because it's what I get paid to put in, and fiber is not all its cracked up to be either.
Fiber has a lower flash point (1500) and lets off noxius fumes. Cell is treated with boric acid so say goodbye to roaches in the attic.
I did it myself lastspring. Had 90 bags from the depot delivered, they get $5.25 a bag here in the Detroit area. It was worth the savings and not difficult. I got several estimates and installers wanted at double to triple that price to install it and they get the stuff at less than what the depot charges.
Do it on a cold day, have a person outside filling the hopper. Make sure you get enough hose. I had to ask the depot give me two 50 foot sections of hose that I duct taped together to get it up to a 2nd floor attic from the garage and reach accross a 45' attic floor. I called the manufacturer of the blower and they said they supply the depot with 100' of hose per machine and they are capable of pumping the insulation through that much hose.
I fed the hose through a gable vent that I bent the louvers and removed the screen temporarily. Do wear a good dust mask. Duct tape your pants around your ankles and tape your long sleeves at your wrists. Let it fall like snow if possible, don't pack it in. I put baffles between all the trusses for soffit vents, and put some fiberglass batt strips in to fill the gap between the baffles and the attic floor.
Dave,
For my house, I found that the cost differential wasn't that great - the pros can buy the materials cheaper than I can, and it was worth having them do the job.