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Discussion Forum

Do I really need a building permit???

willdogg | Posted in General Discussion on March 19, 2005 05:17am

I’m acting as my own general on a master bath renovation.  My tradesmen are highly recommended, and I’ve seen their work in friends’ and neighbors’ homes.  Everyone is bonded and insured. 

Plumber has 20+ years experience, will be doing rough-in, replacing sinktop, vanity, and toilet, and placing a jacuzzi in what is currently closet space in a large sitting room area.

Carpenter/tiler also with 20+ years experience, will do rough-in, enlarging shower by sacrificing another closet space, tile the floors/walls/jacuzzi surround/showerstall, manage drywall and finish carpentry, including french doors.

Electrician has done work for us before, very competent.  He’ll be putting in recessed lighting in the master bath as well as additional lighting in the bedroom, as well as the exhaust fans and ducts.

My situation is that each of these persons are very good, and each one of them has indicated that a building permit is not really necessary for a job of this size.  The only thing being added is the jacuzzi (oh btw, my home is good quality, built in 1971, the ceiling joists supporting the jacuzzi are old-style 2X10’s on 16″ center, and the jacuzzi will be against an exterior wall that is buttressed by a cinderblock garage wall and will be spanning two non-loadbearing partition walls below it — plenty of strength there and nobody at the big boxes has called out needed to reinforce the flooring).  Everything else is tear-out and replace the cosmetics, adding lighting, fans, and with the exception  tearing out closet partitions and extending the current shower stall, the footprint and fixture locations is not changing.  The plumber is not cutting any floor joists!

So again, each of them are waiving me off the building permit.  The plumber in particular stated that it is a judgement call, as the the building inspectors often tell him that adding one fixture is not a big deal so long as the venting is proper (my home has huge vents, and lots of them).  They all agree do do the work according to code, and I know the code enough to check on that at a high level (eg., is the jacuzzi waste line vented, are the electrical outlets GFCI).  This is my 4th home, and I’ve seen shoddy work that I’ve had to correct, and excellent work, so I don’t think I’m going down the wrong path.

What does a building permit get me in this situation, assuming I have contractual statements of work, and can bring in my home inspector to check that the work is up to code (and yes, my home inspector knows the code, he’s incredible).

Thanks, looking forward to the discussion on both options.

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Replies

  1. MikeSmith | Mar 19, 2005 05:25pm | #1

    wil... depends on your jurisdiction..

     how they interpret the code..

    worst case... your job gets shut down.. and the city/town   starts a  proceeding against you

    if you have a valid clause to hang your hat on  as to why you   are NOT getting a permit.. then it becomes more of a personal judgement

    if it is outright scofflaw.. then you are on thinner ice

    90% of the time i err on the side of caution

    Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
  2. MikeSmith | Mar 19, 2005 05:26pm | #2

    any windows in the vicinity of the new jacuzzi ?

    Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
  3. User avater
    SamT | Mar 19, 2005 05:40pm | #3

    Big Brother must approve or Big Brother will rip you a new one.

    SamT

  4. timkline | Mar 19, 2005 05:43pm | #4

    here in pa

    plumbing: you are adding a fixture.  therefore, you need a plumbing permit

    electrical: you are adding several fixtures. therefore, you need an electrical permit

    bathroom renovation: if you are moving walls, you need a permit.   if it is just finish changes, aka, drywall and paint, then no permit necessary

    my gut says you have spent as much time dwelling on this as it would take to get the permits.    don't know what your local code says, but, do you really want to get fined or be forced to rip things out  ?

    in my borough, when you get a moving permit, which is heavily enforced, they come in and check out the house for code violations and they note if you have added any plumbing fixtures.    i wouldn't fool around in my own neighborhood.

     

    carpenter in transition

    1. MichaelPB | Mar 19, 2005 05:53pm | #5

      You have to get a moving permit? Do you mean you have to get one to move from one place to another?

      1. timkline | Mar 20, 2005 01:07am | #19

        yes, when you sell your house, you must get a moving permit.  it costs $10.  i don't remember how they enforce it, but i know you must get one.

        i have never discussed this with the code people, but i am assuming the reasons for this are twofold.  one is to protect the new owner by checking for basic code violations.  they don't get too crazy, mostly handrails and smoke detector stuff.

        the other is to see if any significant changes have been made to the home off the record.  yes, it is revenue based, but tough beans.

        these days i have found most people are too cheap to even notify their insurance carrier when they put a big addition on their home.  then all we hear is "pity me, i don't have enough coverage !"

         carpenter in transition

        1. User avater
          EricPaulson | Mar 20, 2005 02:53am | #20

          Coupla towns around here are starting a new c/o program that gets tickled by a sale.

          They're mostly shutting down illegal apartments and basement, attic bedrooms.

          Probably sucks for some older folks that might rent out a basement apartment to help pay the high taxes, but their tossing a bunch of undesirable at the same time...........prolly over into the next town!

          EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

          With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

          [email protected]

    2. Isamemon | Mar 19, 2005 11:04pm | #13

      In my area, tim kline is right on the money

  5. User avater
    RichColumbus | Mar 19, 2005 06:01pm | #6

    I'd get one.

    Even the best of the best make mistakes.  Not on purpose... but they just do.

    Having an extra set of eyes... who is not intimately involved in the situation or work... can often catch those mistakes.  There is a "familiarity blindness" that is natural for humans.  We see things so many times... that eventually they get overlooked.

    Is one required?  My guess is that not getting one would be a violation in many, many areas... but it is really dependant upon your locality.

    A better question to ask would be "What does not having a building permit get me?"  Does it get you a fine?  Does it get me problems that could have been avoided?  Does it get me a mistake that could have been caught by an inspector?  Does it get me a jacuzzi in the basement?

     

  6. mikeys | Mar 19, 2005 06:11pm | #7

    When you sell this house you may be asked by the buyer about any remodeling and permits in a disclosure form. You'll want to be honest with them.

    Smile. It could be worse. You could be me working for you.

  7. User avater
    hammer1 | Mar 19, 2005 06:14pm | #8

    It depends on your jurisdiction as Mike said. You don't need a permit in my area for repair or replacement. What does a permit cost in your area? It would be less than fifty dollars here. The fines are much higher. It's not always a question of the workers competency. Most experienced contractors are on a first name basis with the inspectors, they aren't out to bust anyone, just to insure that certain components are safe. If the contractors know their stuff, it's just a formality. Someone has to pay the inspectors salary so the hacks don't endanger a family. I would question any contractor that recommends no permit. I'd call the office and ask if you even needed one.

    Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

  8. ponytl | Mar 19, 2005 06:14pm | #9

    permits... are to generate revenue in both their cost and so that they know you have added value to something they will now tax at a higer rate...  and so that big brother knows what you are doing in your private life... plus u have to keep the people around you happy with what you build....because even when they purchased their property next to your pig farm they now feel they shouldn't have to smell your pigs...

    inspections... they are to protect those who can not protect themself

    engineers... are there so that when the crap hits the fan someone is there to catch the fly'n.... stuff...

    in the perfect world people wouldn't do what they have no business doing and those that do would do it right everytime double ck'n all their work and materials...

    do you "need" a permit...  no....  are you required to have one... I'd guess YES and there are 1000 reasons why and most will or have been posted here 99% go back to where the buck stops in any unforseen event... 

    many are there for the lowest of low reasons ie: here you are "required" to have a permit to: replace a wax water closet gasket...  run a phone line..... hook up your ice maker.... install any new light fixture or switch or outlet... but the guy replace'n your roof doesn't need one... the guy painting your house doesn't but he might need approval from a board on the color... now when an outdoor sign is installed you also need a "landscape plan" with type and size plants you plan (read required) to plant to distract from the sign you just installed that you want people to see... hmmmm

    pony

  9. User avater
    EricPaulson | Mar 19, 2005 06:18pm | #10

    Of late, I have remedied several bathrooms in various homes, that were either added or remodeled with out permits.

    When the structure went to market and sold, the potential buyers inquired as to wether or not the new work had a c/o.

    When it becomes apparent that there is none, the bank will NOT provide financing until the situation is remedied. Or on some occassions, the bathroom (or whatever) is rendered into a "room" by removing the plumbing fixtures.

    I can tell you from experience that securing a c/o for work done with no permits is a very HUGE pain and costly as well sometimes involving demolition to provide access to inspectors.

    You need to ask yourself exactly what it is that you are attempting to achieve by circumventing the legal process.

    If all your trades are as good as you say, and they all carry insurance, securing a permit and following the process should be almost painless.

    Getting caught will NOT be fun.

    Eric

    I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

    With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

    [email protected]

    1. User avater
      BillHartmann | Mar 19, 2005 09:53pm | #12

      CO, what CO?We don't need no stinked CO!As said a lot depends on the local.

  10. DanH | Mar 19, 2005 06:20pm | #11

    Depends on the jurisdiction.  Call the inspector's office (block caller ID if you're paranoid) and ask.

  11. davidmeiland | Mar 19, 2005 11:24pm | #14

    The main reason homeowners don't want permits is that it will increase their property taxes. The main reason that tradesmen don't want them is that they add to the timing and sequencing problems, and require return trips.

    Here's a minor wrinkle to consider: a tradesman performing work without the required permits may find that his GL carrier will not cover him for a claim, and, a homeowner doing work without the proper approvals may find the same re his homeowner's insurance. That would depend on the fine print in the policy in question. If you or your subs need to make a claim, permit and inspection paperwork could go a long way towards making it happen in your favor.

    1. User avater
      EricPaulson | Mar 19, 2005 11:29pm | #15

      Excellent points!

      Eric

       I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

      With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

      [email protected]

  12. MojoMan | Mar 20, 2005 12:29am | #16

    If everything is to code and all your people are licensed, insured professionals, why NOT get a permit? Many good reasons for getting one are mentioned by the other posters. What're your reasons for not wanting to get one?

    Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

    1. DanH | Mar 20, 2005 12:54am | #17

      Three reasons (though none of them especially good):1) The permit costs money (maybe a few hundred in cases like this).2) The various contractors will have to arrange for, and possibly hold up work for inspections. Shouldn't be a big deal in most cases.3) In some areas the permit triggers an increase in house assessment. This increase usually is leveled out in subsequent years as adjacent properties go up in value and the reappraisal process occurs.

  13. maverick | Mar 20, 2005 12:55am | #18

    >>plenty of strength there and nobody at the big boxes has called out needed to reinforce the flooring).

    You've really got to be kidding! If you are gullable enough to think your getting sound structural advice from home depot YOU NEED A PERMIT!

    What are you trying to hide anyway?

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