Some of you may have seen my “Barn work” thread in the photo gallery. I really enjoyed that job. The last day I packed up and gave the owner a bill for the extras. He said he’d send me a check. No problem, he’s always paid.
The owner stiffed me for the extras. Not a lot of money, under $1000.00, so I’m chalking it up as tuition, (again).
He said it was because I didn’t have a contract.
True enough, we didn’t have a “legal” contract, but we did have a typewritten and signed agreement. In fact the agreement stated that no doors were included, and the majority of the extra billing had to do with assembly and installation of doors that he asked me to do.
The extras were clearly beyond what was agreed upon yet he apparently felt he shouldn’t have to pay for them.
And then he backcharged me for use of his storage container during the job. He rented it so he could empty the barn while it was being repaired. I asked him if I could use it to put my tools in during the repair process. Of course , he said. He never said anything about charging me. Funny thing is, if he had, I would have certainly had agreed. What’s fair is fair, yes?
It’s not the money that bugs me, it’s more that he has taken this wonderful job, that I’m really proud of, and turned the taste sour.
I believe I went above and beyond on this job. I replaced the front sill and right sill and a few other beams that were beyond the contract, (agreement,whatever), and never even thought about asking for more money. I used stainless steel nails on the siding, and used 1 piece vertical pine on the siding……….no scarf joints, all 1 piece. Why? Because that’s the level of work I wanted to present. I could have finished the siding with scarf joints but I felt a better job was to be had with 1 piece siding. So it cost me another $600.00, it was the right thing to do.
Sorry, I’m ranting.
I told the owner that I had done jobs twice the size of his with no “contract”, on a handshake, once with a husband/wife lawyer team! With no problems.
So back to the original question………
Do I, should I, now work only under a contract.
BTW, I already know the answer…………….just looking for some kind of a consensus.
Rod
Replies
After being in this business for over a decade, I have the attitude of "contract period", no matter who they are, even family. Some people these days will find any excuse not to pay off a bill.
Renaissance Restorations llc
Victorian Home Restoration Services
http://www.renaissancerestorations.com
I have been in the building trades (started as a framer and now I am a builder) for 34 years. I would not think of doing a job without a contract. A contract should be designed to protect both parties.
I can not tell you how many times refering back to our contract has been a great reward.
I also require written and authorized change orders.
Actually, a well written contract will help you win projects.
Edited 11/28/2005 7:12 pm ET by txlandlord
Some people will screw you with or without a contract. A typewritten and signed agreement will suffice. I believe it is legally binding? As far as your extras...were they part of any signed agreement? I'd be tempted to sue him because he is taking advantage of you and stuff like that just pi$$es me off.
I always work from a contract or signed agreement for one simple reason:
If a discrepancy ever exists between what is included and what isn't we can refer to an extremely detailed scope of work to resolve the issue. It averts any arguments and keeps the homeowners and myself happy.
Rod,
I have never worked on a signed contract job. 33 years, handshake only. Many times the handshake includes a scope of work that is written out. Change orders, again on a handshake.
I don't know what to tell you. I have never been burned nor committed arson. I work on referral only, yet many times I do not know the customer when we first start.
I know my system is not normal and I will rcv. a ton of #### for mentioning it. Still, it works well for me.
Best of luck in the future.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
A written agreement , a handshake , a verbal commitment is binding if both parties are willing to tell the truth. Sometimes by a judges decision if he believes you and he can tell there is deception. It could back fire yes but right now hes holding your money anyway. I believe he should have made note of the rental charges be known which he didnt . At least that part comes from rental law Im kinda familar with .
I would take it to small claims court and let the judge hear it and be nice and sweet to the customer . Once you hear his judgement you will probably feel better even if it doesnt serve you the money.
Most will say contract and some wont depending . You are better off to have it ready for court any time you need to go. Just that fact gets you paid most of the time . Then theres a lean on the house owners dont like and a loan agent really goes haywire when one is filed. One time I didnt get paid so I cleaned up and went to the bank to talk to the loan agent since I had met him on the job. I told him my story and advised I was ready to file lean. Its amazing how quickly I got paid althoug it was made clear I would never work for them again after that stunt . Like I would have anyway, duh.
Tim
Contract. Anything over a grand.
Written Change orders. For anything more than 50 bucks.
Recently did a job for 11k that was 2 baths and a kitchen update. Owner kept asking for little things. We usually do a few. Nice lady. In the end she held the final payment saying the job wasn't complete unless we painted the bathroom ceiling and she didn't care if it was in the contract or not. Did it to get the money. She called and wants to schedule new lighting for the kitchen. It will be real expensive with no perks unless a change order is involved. You will always get burned and it will usually be when you least expect it. Unless you are Calvin :-). DanT
Calvin does have a special kind of personality!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Get over it and move on.
Just remember who the bad guy is here.
That prick just lost a wonderful craftsman, and so did a lot of people who he will now be too embarassed to reffer you to.
Jerk............I say burn the place down like Calvin said!!
Decide what you want to do. If you are willing to repeat this; possibly often, then go ahead with the handshake thing.
Otherwise, pay a good contract lawyer to help you develop a contract and stick to using it.
People suck. Just remember who the Karma police will be watching. F- him!
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
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This is what I like about Breaktime...............20 min posted and a bunch of responses already.I'm not going to small claims..........not worth the aggravation.I don't know about the contract thing............I've done a contract for a $500.00 job, and no contract for over $100,000.00 (I know, that's a bit foolish, but I felt very comfortable, and apparently so did they)I generally ask people if they want me to write something up.....if they do, I will..............if they don't care, neither do I. I am trusting, and don't really want to change that way of thinking, but, unfortunately , I might have to.............but I'm resisting.I did ask this guy if he wanted me to write something up,..........he said , no, this is fine. ( I gave him a paper outling what I would be willing to do w/prices) Two weeks later he asks me to sign a paper he had typed up himself. It just repeated everything I had done, so I signed. Rod
BTW, check back on the "Barn work" thread in the Photo Gallery for some final pics of the barn.Now....................if I can only find a good Xmas card for this guy, something with the right sentiment.:)
Send him a shoebox with a large rubber phallus in it... that's what he is.
Like....." Merry Christmas- my lawyer will be calling you to set up a court date."First we get good- then we get fast !
When I did a renovation that was paid in draws, I put in the "contract" that extras were to be paid of the time of the next draw, with the price of the extra agreed upon by both parties before execution. It saves you from arriving after all the work is completed with a bill for ALL the extras. Also the customer knows what the extras cost anfd you get paid for them right away (or pretty close ..) BTW I learned this the hard way too....
Still... get your lawyer to write the guy a letter..... (shouldn't cost much and may move the guy to pay you..)First we get good- then we get fast !
If the Dirtbag has a fax number, E-mail it to me. I would be more then Happy to fax him a Holiday Greeting on your Behalf..........
Not only did he stiff you, but he back charged you for tool storage??!!! I hope you made those doors plenty wide so this guy can get his balls through.
What a piece of garbage.
Sorry you got hit.
BTW I always present a written estimate stating clearly what i'm responsible for and what the homeowner is responsible for, but like you I just do the extras and bill them at the end. I've yet to have a problem.
Thanks for the warning, sometimes I forget that people are people.
If you are not willing to take it to small claims with what you have, a contract isn't going to do you any good. If you want your money you have to get your contract enforced and this means taking it to court.
I think that the agreement that you have signed would stand up in court as a contract but you need to take it there to find out.
I don't know whether you should bother with it anymore but if you are not going to pursue it, quit feeling bad about it and forget about it.
I'm not going to small claims..........not worth the aggravation.
I disagree. Even if it costs me as much as I'm going to gain (or more), I'll go after the SOB. If you don't, you are encouraging him to screw the next guy. And whereas he screwed you out of less than $1k, he might nail the next guy for considerably more. That's like spreading fertilizer on the weeds.
I've only had one case where I didn't go after the SOB, and it STILL bothers me that I didn't. That was my learning lesson of 'don't let the bastards get away with it'.
jt8
"All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke
Edited 11/29/2005 9:59 am by JohnT8
I am just curious what did the backcharges amount to? I could maybe understand the owner not wanting to pay for the "extras" if it wasn't agreed upon first ( I don't know the whole story here). But to charge you to store your tools when nothing to the fact was mentioned " You can store your tools here for half of what the container rent is" that is just BS. Sometimes it isn't worth the effort or time for less than a grand, but still tell him why and what for.
Jeff
Backcharges for tool storage was $60.00/month for 5 months. He calculated that at 50% of his monthly cost. Supposedly $120.00 a month.It's funny because during the job I had mentioned to him how convenient it was having the storage trailer on site, and he said, yeah, and they're cheap too. About $100.00 a month. Now, somehow.............at the end of the job it's $120.00 a month and I'm supposed to pay half.OK, the more I think about it, the more it's time to write him a letter.And I would take the doors back, but..........he bought the doors in kit form from another company, he had me assemble them. The instructions said to screw them together, I said no......I wanted to clinch nail them.......and did. He agreed.Maybe I could take my nails back? :)The job was over $80,000...........agreed upon, and paid for.The extras were all of $1550.00, and he paid just under $700.00, saying he'd send me a check for the rest.Then I get a letter about backcharges, etc.I've done work in Glastonbury many years, a few people are goint to be hearing about this azzhole. Rod
When just starting out I had taken on problem clients that were known to be problems up front without contracts. After being shorted on the final check 3 times for a couple hundred each time I have little patience for it. Now contracts are always used and I have small claims forms with me. The same week someone does something squirly I'll file the papers if need be. The shock of being served right away has resulted in a number of quick checks without the court appearance for a few contractors in our area.
Funny thing is, as my contracts have improved in both form and function there never seems to be the wiggle room to tempt people to do stupid things.
Don't let writing contracts scare you if you don't have the money to hire a lawyer. There are some good resources around to give you ideas of how to handle specific situations and some boiler plate to cover the things that don't change.
My contracts for smaller jobs are 10-15 pages and are written with a large emphasis on supporting the bid presentation. The flow of the contract follows the presentation and logically explains the who, what, when, where, how. Not everything is legal-related and mixing in this marketing/sales information helps inform the client while covering the legal essentials. Contracts don't have to be boring.
Many clients are surprised to see that the last page calls for signatures and a check since the document doesn't "feel" like a formal contract. Each year contractors I know lose work because they allow too much time between the sales presentation and a signature on the contract. The sooner they can be locked in with a signature the better.
Cheers,
Don
fwiw, a little basic law stuff.
A contract is an agreement between two parties setting forth the essential terms. It can be written or oral. Oral contracts are just as binding as written. In the absence of a contract, a performing party has the right to collect under the theory of quantum meruit, the reasonable value of the goods and services provided. Contracts can be created by performance (doing something) or forebearance (not doing something you would otherwise have done). All contracts have an implicit element of good faith. Where a party is induced to enter into a contract based upon a misrepresentation of fact, then the contract is void ab initio (from the outset) and there is no contract. A written contract is construed against its writer (any vagueries are held against the party who drafted the contract). The contract need not include all terms, but must include essential terms (the basic terms and conditions).
The purpose of a written contract is twofold: First, it clarifies the understanding between the parties, thereby eliminating issues of interpretation that may arise later. Second, it provides evidence of the agreement in court. Contracts do not make anyone do anything. If you don't feel that you could trust a person with a handshake, then you can't trust them with a contract. You're merely gathering evidence for when you will sue them later. Honorable people act honorably whether they have a contract or not.
The communication aspect of a contract, on the other hand, serves a very important purpose. However, it is far harder to express in written words the detail that distinguishes the actual work to be done than most people realize, or to cover all the details that make up a job. Few people, including lawyers, have the ability to write with sufficient detail and clarity a contract that is truly informative, and most people use broad, vague descriptions that are subject to extremely different interpretations. Moreover, few people realize how vague their writing is until they end up in litigation, because they know what they meant to say and can't appreciate how anyone else can see the same words and interpret them differently. Unfortunately, this happens all the time, and widely varying interpretations are often quite reasonable given the vague use of language.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
fwiw, a little basic law stuff
Worth a whole lot, thank you very much. Confirmed my assumptions.
I'm a handshaker, with some text on occasion. Burned just once on a misread of the client.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I'm not a builder or remodeling contractor. I'm an installer/salesman for steel racking for warehousing and distribution. Remodeled my home built in the 1800's I did the dirty work and used contractors and trades to do drywall, plumbing, electrical, brick work and cabinets. Most with no issues, this was in the mid 80's. Built a 2nd home in 1995 acted as general again most without issues. However did an install for a company/guy I knew for 20 years and we both made $ on many jobs together. However did an install for him in 2000 job was filled with changes and backcharges, had signed papers by owner to make changes but not by the contractor/sub who gave me the job. Have people who heard him tell me to do the work but keep it under 100,000.00, told me and my lead guy the owners ok it. Asked him if he had it in writing, he said no problem he knew owners. Again I knew this guy for 20 years. I'm making loan payments of 1127.00 per month to cover the money he never paid. He offered 50,000.00 I first turned him down but then realized he had upper hand so I called him to accept offer, he said sue me. Spoke to 2 lawyers told me it would cost me between 15-20 grand to take him to court, with no sure way to collet $ because no paperwork. I could not lien job because I was a sub to a sub. Again the lawyers told me in their 50 cent works i was screwed. This low life still works in the Material Handling field as Pittsburgh Material Handling. This job sent me back to being employee vs. being self employed.
Rackman, did your attorneys tell you not to mention the offending (allegedly) company's name in public? Probably a good idea to leave his name out of public internet posts in my humble opinion.
- Rob
"Fool me once shame on you - fool me twice shame on me" When this happens to me my consolation is knowing I'm comfortable looking in the mirror in the morning every day. Except for all that grey coming into the beard.
Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
You did nice work on the barn, you apparently gave it your all. You should get paid for your work. Follow the correct avenues to do that, if not for yourself at least for the rest of us so that morons like your client don't think that attitude is acceptable behaviour.
That stinks. Here, the contract is binding. Any extras that you mutually agreed upon are binding. Even if you didn't say "that's X$/hr." I've discovered, through other peoples problems thankfully, that the courts (here, at least) put a lot of stock in what is customary for the local culture. I know. That's pretty grey. But I think the way it'd boil down is you'd get paid for the extras and since there was no expectation that you were getting charged for keeping your tools in the container, that wouldn't fly. I say that because it's customary that you would leave your tools at the job, whether thats in the house, the garage, a box is irrelevant. Homeowners don't charge you for that.
But more on point. I'm like you. Handshake means something. I also have done some jobs, some very large jobs, on nothing more and everything went swell. But it's always that other 2%. I force myself into using contracts now. I don't like it. But I think I'm the only one. I've never had a client who thought it was distasteful. Its my own perceptions I fight. Most view a contract as what it is, mutual protection, and appreciate one that is well written and paints a clear picture of what is going to happen, using what, when, etc. Think of it as managing expectations.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I think the most important part of a contract is it's ability to communicate exactly what is expected of both parties. If the relationship between contractor and client lacks trust, the project is doomed.The big problem I see with a handshake is that information is so, so often miscommunicated, forgotten, misconstrued, etc. (this is not directed to the OP). Half the time I can't get people to spell my name correctly when I tell it to them on the phone, how can I expect both parties to remember what I'm giving them and how much it will cost?A contract, for me, is all about communication. A handshake, while it does have that warm and fuzzy feeling of doing things the "old way when a man's word was his bond", does not communicate much at all.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Depends. One customer I did a $50,000 job on a handshake, but most jobs over $2-3,000 I'll write up a contract. I put faith in my instincts, and avoid customers that I get a bad feeling about. I've only been burned once(about $900), so I don't see any reason to change.
Of course, knock on wood.
Stacy's mom has got it going on.
Done it both ways, mostly by verbal agreement. Did a $150k remodel for a customer on a verbal, everything went well. Going to start a $250k for the same customer next month.
Back when I wore a white shirt, I had a contractor who I trusted, and whe built bank branches for me. We had a written contract, but the paperwork was slow and we started anyway. We actually made the first progress payment 5 days after he invoiced me and that was before the contract was signed. I got a strange call from his accounting dept about that, asking what the check was for.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Take the bastard to court and get your money out of the dumb azz homeowner. The only reason these pieces of crap do this is because they think they can get away with it.
Also go to court prepared with every little extra you can think of. Whatever you didn't have on the original agreement, put it down on paper to take to court. Clean up, lumber yard trips, all of that stuff. X amount of dollars for every little extra.
Maybe after that the next time that dogs##t homeowner wants work done he will pay the next guy instead of cheatin him.
Don't let this moron win!
Even if I trust a person, I know that I cannot always trust his memory of what the job entails. I can't trust my memory for that matter, either. Lots of steps and materials even on the small jobs. Lots of jobs=overwhelmed memory. Not to mention the possible mis-communications for various reasons.
I use contracts for larger jobs (IL State law says anything over $1,000 needs a contract), but most of mine are smaller ($100-$500), so I just have them sign a work order, a form showing what I will do, what it will cost, if materials are included, payment terms, etc.
Something to remember besides trusting the person or his/her memory: What if the customer gets hit by a truck (heart attack, stroke, old age, whatever) and dies when you're halfway through the job? You've invested several days of work and a few hundred $$ in materials, and now the client is dead.
It sure would make it easy on everybody to show a piece of paper, complete the job and get paid, rather than fight with the son-in-law who didn't want Grandma to spend any of his future inheritance on home improvements, and now your stuck with the materials and lost time and effort.
Just something to keep in mind when you're thinking whether something in writing is really necessary. Plus, you can use that when discussing with the client who thinks something in writing isn't necessary.
Pete Duffy, Handyman
I do look at the contract as primarily a communications method to scep and detail things.Yopu raise a good point about remembering. I am learning that as I get older and the jobs get bigger, I don't remember the details as well and need written memoes at the very least. I keep a running track of E-mails going regualrly with my customers. Betweent hat and phone calls, we stay on top of it. I have also started to keep a mini noitebookk in my pocket and whip it out al day long lately, then display it to myself on the desk at night.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Who says a signed agreement isn't a contract?
Even if it isn't legally a contract, nobody would assume you would do work clearly excluded in a signed agreement for free.
Charging for a place to put your tools is so against common custom that anyone would consider it ridiculous.
I am not a lawyer and don't have experience with small claims, but I would think any system based on any amount of common sense would get you paid. You seem too wrapped up in what may or may not be techically legal when what is at the heart of the matter is that you have been hosed.
Someday, your dentist, doctor or mechanic is going to charge you several hundred bucks for something and you will wish you had the money. I would rather see you buy something nice for your family for xmas than this jerk.
What happens if you unknowingly work for someone he has told you laid down for this?
You laid out the scope of your work in a professional fashion and did a professional job, why "chalk it up as tuition"?
Don't let the owner buffalo you with his opinon of the legality of your agreement.
Keep in mind that you may not be the only one he's done this with. If he sucessful holding out a bit on each project he does, that could affect a lot of people.
The way I see it, you did the doors as an extra that wasn't in the contract, and didn't get paid for them? Take the doors back. :)
Just curious,
If you used stainless steel nails and no full length pine, and this is your standard level of quality, why wasn't is included in your original price?
Did you decide during the project that this would be nicer? If yes did you discuss with your client and explain the added cost?
I'm asking because I often do small upgrades because it is a better way to do things, and usually do not even ask for an extra. I have also explained a justification for an upgrade, with a client response of "If that is how it should be done then why are you asking for extra money?"
Sounds like you are dealing with an A-hole. Check into putting a mechanics lien on his property. In my state it is very easy to do, but there is a time limit. May not get imediate results, but chances are pretty good that you will prevail in the end.
When I had a larger company, I always got a signed contract. Now that I work alone, for an hourly rate, I've been doing everything on a verbal agreement. I did some work for one guy who drew up an agreement that we both signed, and that was cool. Like someone else said, I only take work I'm interested in doing, and with clients that I have a good feeling about. If I don't like someone, I won't do any work for them. If they don't like me, I don't want to do any work for them.
I see the work I do as part of my dharma, and trust my instincts and higher self to guide me to the work the universe has for me. I don't use business cards, yard signs, truck signs, or any of the other marketing strategies. I don't take work I don't want to do, just for the money. I don't work with people I don't feel good about, just because they have money. I trust that the work I'm supposed to get will come to me, and it does.
I know this doesn't work for everyone, and I'm happy about that. I wouldn't be unique if everyone did things the way I do.
I think the one thing lacking on may construction projects, and the root of most problems, is communication. Talking about things as the project goes along is very important. That may not have been the problem in your case, but certainly someone wasn't communicationg something.
I would definitely take the guy to court, even if the payoff is minimal. It will be a bigger hassle for him than you, and you might be surprised how it all turns out.
Allen in Santa Cruz
"He said it was because I didn't have a contract. True enough, we didn't have a "legal" contract, but we did have a typewritten and signed agreement. "
"he said" it's called posturing, or bulls**t, or some would call it negotiating.
unlike wills or donations, there is no magic language that converts a piece of paper to a contract. in fact, most contracts are not required to be written. a contract is an agreement between two or more parties which bind the parties to perform certain acts. the paper with the signatures is simply proof of the meeting of the minds that existed. I think it was Samuel Goldman who said "an oral contract isnt worth the paper it's written on."
the answer is, sure you have a contract for the services that the contract covered. the question is does he owe you for the work you did that was not on the contract. i beleive that most states would require the owner to pay you a reasonable sum for work you performed at his request which was not addressed in the contract. "reasonable sum" is a perfect question for a judge to answer, and you should damn sure give a judge that opportunity.
i'm sure it's been mentioned here and other threads, but most states have materialman/mechanics liens, that allow you essentially a mortgage on his property for unpaid labor and materials incorporated into the immovable. once you file the lawsuit and get the judgment, you have lots of choices on collection. you can garnish his salary, record the judgment in the mortgage records, and maybe foreclose just like his mortgage company. some states will let you tack on attorney fees for taking the judgment and also for collecting the judgment.
you carry a hammer on your tool belt, and dont hesitate to use it in doing your job. the law also gives you tools. dont be afraid to use that hammer too. he'll probably come around. if you lose, you can sleep better nights knowing that you didnt roll over and let him rob you.
next time you start to say "f***king lawyer," remember the one who gave you free advice.
Disclaimer: although i am a lawyer, i dont know squat about law outside louisiana, and you should understad the above is worth what you paid for it.
Interesting post, davem, coming from an attorney. I have found that if someone wants to stiff you, he'll do it whether you have a signed contract or not. I'm not advocating that others work without a contract. I do it, and it works for me. It's just interesting to hear an attorney say you don't need a written contract to have an agreement.
Allen in Boulder Creek
No, you don't need a written contract to have an agreement. It doesn't need to be in writing to be a contract. But if there is a disagreement later, it's much harder to prove what was in the contract/what was agreed to if it was never written down.Hence the expression, "an oral contract is not worth the paper it's written on". It's much harder to enforce.Rebeccah(I'm not a lawyer, but my father is.)
Hey thanks,
As a contractor how does know the game I appreciate your very clear and helpful advise to all the folks out there how are trying to do the right thing and allow themselves to be bullied because they are better carpenters than businessmen....
He is dead wrong to think there is no contract. Whan a relationship exists like this with service provided and money excahnging hands, you are either A a contractor, or B an emplyee. If he says not contractor, he has indicted himself for not taking withholding taxes and having insurance on you.
It may be a verbal contract, but a contract exists. The only thing to argue out is the details of it.
I would pursue this in small claims court if i were you. He has the idea that he can bluff you. Tiome to call and see his hand.
I work on instinct a lot. most new customers get a contract. most older ones get a handshake. I haven't lost but maybe $800 in all my life frrom non-payment and the biggest chunk of that was one with a contract, going back to the saying that a contract is worth no more than the man who signs it.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I haven't read through this whole thing, but will when I get a minute. I gotta say though... my first reaction is that you are rolling over and dieing way too quick. Contract or no contract, stand up for yourself and get paid.
Try to remember that you're doing this to make money... not friends. While making friends will happen and is a nice side note to the business.... it is never the business I'm in.
It's not the money that bugs me, it's more that he has taken this wonderful job, that I'm really proud of, and turned the taste sour.
That line speaks mountains. THE MONEY SHOULD BUG YOU!!! It bugs me for cryin' out loud and it ain't even mine. Stop falling in love with the job you're on and start falling in love with your business. Or go broke and shut the door like the other 80% of new businesses. Then you can come work for me and continue to do gorgeous work for peanuts. ;)
EDIT: Just read through it all. You've been given some very good advice. Personally, I contract all first time customers now and most of the repeat ones. Like Jon said, if nothing else it gets everyone's expectations on the same page so no one is disappointed with what they've recieved in the deal. I got beat for 4K last winter at the worst possible time of year (taxes and insurance audits).
I didn't have a contract because I've known the guy a while and framed several projects for him. That 4K still makes me want to stand on my head and spit nails when I think about it. That job still haunts me. It snowed constantly and we had to shovel the joint out like 5 or 6 times. It was a condo project. My lead guy broke his ankle on that job and I lost him for two weeks. I even plowed out the parking lot for free after my route just so we'd have decent space to work the next day. Even came up with a better way to handle the fire separation walls that saved him money. Man I get pizzed just thinking about it.
Edited 11/29/2005 7:05 pm ET by dieselpig
Being a contractor in mist states means you are "allowed " to write contracts and most states have required language that must go in the contract, like it or not, it's what is right for your community.
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Rod,
If it was me---at age 43---- I would chalk the $1000 up to tuition payed for some of lifes lessons and move on with my life.
however---me at 25-30----well I would have schemed and planned and made all sorts of stupid attempts to get paid the $1000( in fact I am still Pizzed about $700 I am owed from back then)
But now---- I know that attempting to get the $1000 back would cost me MANY times the value of $1000 in agravation-----it's not worth it to me. not that I am made of money-----but $1000 ain't worth the hassle to me.
all that said----what I might do---from time to time as the opportunity presents itself
Is wait------ periodically someone in the neighborhood might mention what a nice job you did on the barn------ you will graciously accept their complements and happily describe how much you enjoyed working on the project---what a privilege it was to work on that structure---blah, blah, blah--------------and then with a slight look of bewilderment you will look straight at the neighbor and mention" you know---he STILL owes me about $1000 for that work--he just won't pay up"
and just leave it at that----word will get around.
YOU don't look for these opportunities----you wait for someone to bring the topic up----and then you mention in a low key manner that HE beat you out of $1000
Best wishes to you----and keep up the good work
Stephen
"He said it was because I didn't have a contract."
You do have a contract, it may not be enforceable because it isn't in writing, but it is still a contract. I'm not a lawyer or in the construction trades (any more) but I am self-employed and do most of my work with just a verbal agreement. If one of my customers said that to me I'd do what I could to collect just for the principle of the thing. People letting it go is the reason a**holes like that think they can get away with it and they can if we don't do something about it.
So far I think everyone has covered this but...
I have a friend that is an electrician, he goes to court every time, even if it's only 20 bucks. He doesn't care, he will not let a customer screw with him. I watched him walk off a job b/c the customer hired another electrician to do work b/c they added stuff on and expected him to be there the next day to do it. I wish I was able to be as strict as him, in this business you have to be.
I myself have been stiffed a few times, and after losing about 2 grand, I decided it was time for a contract. All my jobs are small, usually under 2 or 3 grand, usually trim and custom built-ins. Personally after meeting and discussion the scope, I give them an estimate, which they sign and return a copy. I then schedule them (I know they are serious) and send them a contract. All of my jobs are T & M, I've never had a customer ask for a bid or quote. If they do, I explain that I boost it up a bit, just incase. That usually changes their minds. If I'm under the estimate, they win, if not, I don't get screwed.
Personally, I prefer handshake deals, but there is always a chance for a misunderstanding. Another example, is I tell a friend I charge about so much a day, said project will take so many days. Guy doesn't even give me a chance to write up an estimate, just says do it. Well when the bill comes, he complains. I tell him exactly what I said. He says he and his wife heard daily amount, and thought that was the estimate. Needless to say we settled on a smaller amount that what I would have prefered.
Unfortunately, you need a contract. Even if it says "Time and Materials" the customer can't complain if you keep good records of when you start and leave and your reciepts for the material. You and your family are number one, not the other guy that gets to enjoy the beautiful, well crafted project.
Jim W.
Coventry Woodworking
Ok Ok, I'm not gonna let him get away with it. I didn't think I was going to anyway. I believe I'll wait 30 days and send him a bill. If he doesn't pay in 30 days, I'll send him a certified letter demanding payment or collection processes will begin.I have no doubt that he will end up paying something somewhere over this.He also stiffed the roofer............my friend.........who I got involved in the job. He tried to stiff him outa $1600.00, but my friend called him at his house, and ended up getting $1000.00 outa him, and he's going to let it drop. Rod
Not to beat a dead horse, but you're talking about a 60 day plan to recover your money. I'd start on him right now. The longer you have to wait for your money, the less the chances of seeing it. That seems to work exponentially for some reason.
Depending on the state, the rules for when you can file a lien and when you can file in small claims court are fairly restrictive. be aware of them.
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Contract, gentlemen's agreement, handwritten or typed, put everything down on paper and sign it, both parties. It can be very depressing to get screwed on any job. Been there. And there's no reason for it. A few minutes at the kitchen table with both husband and wife, spelling out what's to be done, when the payments are due, is usually sufficient. If you feel the least bit uneasy, take your notes home and type it up in legal language. Or use a standard construction contract.
Respect for clarity on both sides is a good place to begin a business relationship.
I agree with Tim Mooney. Small claims and a judge will decide who to believe. Just stay calm and tell the truth. I do most of my work without a contract. One time I did give a written estimate and outlined the work and underestimated the cost by almost half--they paid me a bonus that made up for it. I'm lucky though, in that my wife makes far more money than I do, so if I get screwed out of a few bucks, we can still eat. I might be less easy going about it if I were our only source of income.
notagain,
I work on a handshake mostly when I sell my equipment, I'll deliver a $100,000 piece of equipment with nothing more than a handshake. (heck, I've ordered $250,000 pieces on the basis of a simple phone call). Part of the reason I'm successful is because I display trust in my dealings with the people I work with and because I am willing to trust them people feel the same way about me.
Now I'm not as foolish as that seems.. In that I always know completely who I'm dealing with before I bring out the equipment.. I know their credit score, their years of doing business, who they work for, and what those people say about them.. I'm simply not crude enough to ask them to write it all down before the deal is done..
Part of the reason for my success is that I don't put up obsticales for people to do businss with me.. By appearing to do business on a handshake basis The customer gets to have the equipment in hand before I ask them to sign anything. That way they can see that it is as I described and that they aren't risking anything..
On my own house I refuse to do business with anyone who whips out a contract.. I figure if they are that frightened they must have things in their past that where their poor judgement got them into a bind or they have some other reason to be willing to hire a lawyer to collect.
I never pay in advance but I figure when the bill is presented I owe it to them to have the cash (folding green paper with dead presidents on it) ready to pay).. That way as long as the federal government doesn't bounce their checks I'm safe. (of course with the currant government that's getting much more risky) <G>
Of course Frenchy---you do eventually have them sign something---don't you ?
Out of curiosity---is a lift easier to repo---than say a customers tub surround?
And---in the event that your customer dis-appeares with the lift-----are you Frenchy---personally on the hook for the lift----or is your dealership?
do you think if you PERSONALLY had to pay for a missing $100,000 piece of equipment---you might change your approach somewhat?
One thing I notice here is that a lot of folks over the years mentioned that they use to do the " handshake thing"---untill they got burned a time or two-----then they changed their procedure
Perhaps some of the folks doing the " handshake thing"---just haven't been burned yet?????---- I don't think i have seen any of them mentioning that they have been burned 5 or 6 times but they have no intention of changeing practices.
Best wishes----, Stephen
Stephen,
I'm sorry I'm so late in responding to you.. (insert excuse here <G>)
I've made mistakes in the past (rarely) but learned from them.. I then took responsibility and aggressively sought remedy.
My company couldn't easily forgive a $100,000 mistake so I am careful that it doesn't happen and they know it.. But my customers perchieve it as a simple handshake deal.
Yeh, I'd be on the hook..
* you asked about repossesing a telehandler or 35 ton crane. If I don't know where the equipment is gonna be I won't send it out.. While I'm on the hook I keep close track of it.
If I sent out a new telehandler, manlift, or crane and it came back used and dirty I think my loss would be greater than the value of a tub surround..
Interesting perspective. Most of my customers are relieved as they feel protected against the unscrupalus contractor. They feel it is a sign of being a real company and a professional. I also "whip out" my insurance and bond paper work to show that I really have both instead of just an advertise it.
I know some guys don't work with a contract and do good work. But if you are trying to build a company of any size then having the legalities in order for the future is important. But then again it is a free country and you can hire who you want. But I wouldn't work for anyone on a job over a grand that I hadn't worked for before without a contract so we simply both understand how and what is to be done and be when an whom. DanT