Replies

1. 
   Ben_Carnes | Oct 07, 1999 06:37pm | #1

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   What's next? Probably 1X lumber that measures 3/4" and 1/2" plywood that measures 7/16"....

   -Ben
   View Image

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   Guest_ | Oct 07, 1999 09:49pm | #2

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   It applies to a lot of things in these times. If you (or someone or something else you favor) can't meet the standard, just lower the standard.

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   Guest_ | Oct 07, 1999 11:24pm | #3

   *Yeah, I can see how, a very high grade siding with no more than two 1/2" diameter knots per 8 feet of stock would eventually be the best we can find. But we can't call that "clear" can we? - jb

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   Guest_ | Oct 08, 1999 12:06am | #4

   *I know that when I lived in Wyoming a few years ago, one of my friends, who was a grader for one of the local sawmills was telling me that the grading had included both sides of the lumber but they changed that to only grading the best side.I also found it interesting that the graders there were paid by the sawmill. I always wondered that if a board was right on the line between 2 grades, which way it went. ;)

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   Guest_ | Oct 08, 1999 01:38am | #5

   *I just added my infinite wisdom to this thread only to have it cancelled out by some other posts - I guess anyway, because it didn't show up but three other posts did.Anyway my feeling is that you can call it anything you want - if they can call a flat, desolate manufactured home development in the city "Mountain Meadows", you can call a stick with a couple of knots in it "clear"...When I was working in a saw mill a couple of decades ago, most of the stuff I see in home centers would have ended up on the cull pile or in the incinerator. But we just don't have the trees left to do the old fashioned version of "clear" any more (O.K. there are two left, but everybody is fighting over them...)With the factory farming methods of forestry now in vogue, they cut anything approaching 8" in diameter. That means that soon you won't even have the knotty boards - only those that are chewed up and spit out encased in plastic...

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   Guest_ | Oct 08, 1999 05:05am | #6

   *JimA couple of years ago I was framing a house and the main 2 x 10 floor joists ended up being two different lengths. The main beam was staggered off centre. The ends of the J's overlapped the minimum, and all the one size were smaller than all the other size, by about 3/8". This would have caused a hump in the floor which I had to deal with by fussing and shimming. I took some offcuts back to the yard and dropped them onto the owners desk. He was equally surprised, made a few calls, and came back with the info that they were both within"spec", he then followed up with a photocopy of the then current grading and sizing standards.i Caveat Emptor!!-pm

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   Guest_ | Oct 08, 1999 07:30am | #7

   *I built a spec house two blocks away from the senior center in a small town whose main industry was plywood mills last year. Since watching me build a house alone is apparently more entertaining than ol'ladies and bingo, I attracted a regular gathering of geezers. I even had my own supervisor geezer in charge of these gatherings. The cull pile was a favorite conversation spot. One question that was never resolved was, did there used to be a minimum number of growth rings required in framing 2x stock? Some swore there was, most couldnt remember. Question came up regular while examining the culls.BTW- These guys knew so many dirty tricks that could be used in the manufacture and grading of plywood it was scary. Very educational.JonC

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   Guest_ | Oct 08, 1999 07:51am | #8

   *I always have to check 3x lumber for size. that is why I like I-joists. especially for between the first and second floor. Also my electric plane comes in handy.Rick Tuk

4. 
   Guest_ | Oct 08, 1999 10:03pm | #9

   *Hey Jim:If my studies in Wood Design and Construction are good for anything it's for situations like this. I have been working on a project trying to determine if some small diameter Ponderosa Pine 2x4's are good enough to considered structural. We sound wave test for modulus of elasticity and then compare that to what a professional lumber grader determined the board to be. Then we test them to point of failure, big noise, flying pieces of wood. Anyway, they usually look at only one side and are sort of like home inspectors in that they don't do so well by rejecting material, one reason design specs are so conservative. I am in the core of what they call the Forest Products industry in that all my work and even my living wage right now is coming from those companies, and I'll risk Siberian prison camp interment by saying that they are all in a sad state of denial. Sort of rambling but I have to get it out somewhere since I haven't quite worked up to open vocalization in the Forestry Building. If you have any questions that I can ask please let me know. I have to come up with something for a professional paper/thesis and I would like it to be from a pragmatic/builder/carpenter/semi-environmentalist POV. I should go, forgot that I made my coffee this strong, rambling......

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   Drew_Kirk | Oct 09, 1999 09:03am | #10

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   Just this week these lumber sizes came through my job site: 2x4's that were 1 3/8" by 3 1/4" and 2x10's that were 8 3/4" wide. Eight and three-quarters inches!

4. 
   Guest_ | Oct 10, 1999 08:17am | #11

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   Can anyone enlighten me as to what the stages of shrinkage of 2 bye finished lumber has been over time? When was the dimension shrunk to its current state of 1.5" and what was it before that (was it 1-9/16?)?

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   Drew_Kirk | Oct 10, 1999 08:41am | #12

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   About what are they in a "sad state of denial?"
   Are there any potential thesis topics regarding the use of Radiata Pine from New Zealand or whatever wood it is that is harvested from the Russian taiga?

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   Guest_ | Oct 10, 1999 08:45am | #13

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   Casey , I think it was in the early 60s and they were 1 5/8" and only a short time at 1 9/16 " I remember my uncles all complaning about the smaller lumber. Whats with the 2x4 s that should be used for pulp wood being sold as structural studs?

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   Guest_ | Oct 10, 1999 10:12pm | #14

   *I thought some of you might get a kick out of this ad. It is from a local box store (Home Depot), but it says a lot for them all. They honestly believe this crap, and try to convince the customers that their wood is the best available. Now if I'm like most contractors, I have been in a bind once in a while, and needed a piece of lumber or two fast. I make my way to the local Home Depot, or Lowe's, or whatever and I find decent wood, but only AFTER I toss the junk wood aside. You've probably all seen the same thing. Wood with bark on it, edges torn off, some of it about 1/4" wider than others, etc...This ad says it all. It says to me that these guys will sell anything, and tell you how wonderful it is. The old addage is... tell the people bull crap long enough, and they will start to believe it.James DuHamel

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   Guest_ | Oct 10, 1999 10:50pm | #16

   *Casey Just perused My library and in a few books, the latest printing 1977, 2x4's dressed and with a moisture content of 19% or less were 1 1/2 x 3 1/2 and above 19% 1 9/16's so these dimensions have been around for a while. Was doing it for My own curiosity and thought I would pass that along. Lumber identification and gradings are done by humans and it is to our benefit to be educated, at some point reasonably close to the seller. While it is easy to tell what we will or won't accept for our particular use, knowing the actual grade specs can save us from paying for something a grade or two down from what we are being charged. A wiley customer who does their homework and incorporates a lawyer could hurt someone who isn't hep. CYA. There's a lot of art and science involved. VPI (Tech as we call it here) has a Wood Science Department and those boys are a good and knowledgeable crew. You can't know to much. Skip

7. 
   Guest_ | Oct 10, 1999 10:50pm | #15

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   I didn't want to sidetrack another thread, so I'll ask here. Rufus reported that, according to the Western Red Cedar Association, "clear" lumber can include knots.

   I am not doubting what Rufus says, but this really bothers me. "Clear" means clear to me. What about you folks? Are you gonna sell a customer "Clear" siding, then have them come home and see knots in it? What's next? - jb