So…I’m finally going to get some help (or at least I thought I would until I got this bid…) on my renovation project.
I’m remodeling our SMALL bathroom (7’X8’ with a 3’X4’ shower “closetâ€) and I’m going to have someone lay the tile….We are going to purchase the tile (friend in the business)…We are going to put down a hex marble floor (comes on a mesh pad/no designs) and a white subway tile wainscotting (up 40†on three walls). In the shower, it will be subway tile floor to ceiling (10’), the marble hex on the floor, and 4X4 tile on the ceilings. The tile setter would be responsible for the shower “pan†(waterproofing). We requested that the walls be floated (mud) and the floor (due to mechanical issues) would be placed on backer board (durarock)
Since we are purchasing the tile from our friend, the bid from the tile setter was mostly for labor—except for mortar, chicken wire, durarock, and shower pan material… The bid came in at $7000.00.
This seems pretty high to me, but I don’t have any other bids to compare it to…I’ve tried to get other tile setters out, but this industry seems to be full of flakes who either won’t return your phone calls or fail to show up when they schedule an appointment (BTW, this isn’t limited to tile setters…I’ve been blown off by sheetrockers and insulation people too…this is one of the reason why I do most of this stuff myself). If my project took two weeks to complete (working 40 hours a week) that’s a pretty good salary—I never should have gone to school!
What do you think?
Replies
My brother had a bathroom, same size same materail situation you are in 4-5 years ago and the bid for just installing his tile was $6,000. The tile is still in the garage and the bathroom is still roughed-in -- not a shower taken or toilet flushed in 4-5 years -- good luck -- Dudley
I find that if cusstomer supplys anything the job ends screwed up
It send 's up a red flag to trades people as being nonstandard
the trades person usually has a mark- up on material to cover overhead
also if theres anything wrong with material supplied by trades person its his problem in my book
material supplied by customer is customers problem &they pay my timewhile they rectify it
this happens so often that I count on it proving to customer how I take care of the hassels dealing with suppliers
It is interesting how often pals of customers stick them with end of line goods, returned goods that are defective and I have to fix at their expence or obsolete goods
Sounds like you had best buy yourself a few books on the joys of tile & do this yourself too.
And by the way, the fact that you are supplying the tile means your tilesetter is NOT making the markup on the tile.
That is the reason for buying it yourself, right?
Do you expect someone to work for less just for the pleasure of your company? You might have a look in the business folder and try to figure out some of the costs of doing business and see if you can understand why it is gonna cost so much for just the labor.
Good luck, Joe H
For all the work you describe, $7,000 is not out of line at all.
Two other points (read: things that drive me crazy when I hear them from people who are not in the trades.)
1. "It seems high to me" You go on to say you have nothing to compare it to. With that in mind, it might be more than you want to spend, but it is in no sense "high".
2. "...that’s a pretty good salary—I never should have gone to school!" That kind of smart azz comment makes it clear you don't have a clue about how a business is run. ever hear of overhead and profit? Guess we're not worth the big bucks, huh?
FWIW, I wouldn't blow you off.......I'm a professional. I'd just tell ya' I ain't interested. By the way, I went to school and I chose the work I do. :-)
Good luck with you project.
Mike
"That kind of smart azz comment makes it clear you don't have a clue about how a business is run. ever hear of overhead and profit"
Your right about it being a "smart azz" comment...cheap shop I know and apologize for it as well if I offended you or others (I get a lot of cheap shots in my line of work too, and try to let it roll off my back)...thought I'd make it a little interesting.
I must admit, though, that my frustration level with the trades is going through the roof--many of these people are "recommendations" and even my own contractor friend has said "good luck" in trying to get decent help...and that if I find someone who does good work and provides good customer service to let him know...The one of four roofers who actually showed up for their scheduled meeting with me actually got the job, because he was the only one to show not because of price...I was glad to pay him...he did a great job and now does a lot work for my contractor friend.
But please help me understand...the overhead and profit in this situation--there is a small amount of materials that the tile setter will be supplying, so those costs are minimal...I understand that he has his truck and his tile saw, trowels, and other tools of the trade. I understand that he may have some stationary/computer costs....But that being said, unlike an average wage earner who can't deduct his car, part of his mortgage (home office), tools and deprecitation (including the ol 179 deduction for his computer), work clothes, boots, gas (please don't tell me that the ol truck isn't used for pleasure now and then)...So help me understand the "overhead" when the tile setter will not be supplying the materials? (BTW, he was happy to learn that we were buying the tile "because he hates having to place, track, and pick up tile orders.")
I'm not trying to be smart here--honest...I'd just like to better understand
Edited 3/25/2005 1:59 pm ET by PNUTIII
Another thing about self-employed tradespeople--unlike average wage earners, most can not afford decent health insurance, and because of a lifetime of not charging enough, don't have a retirement account. I know tileworkers barely over fifty whose knees and thumbs are literally worn out. It's been said that the silica in mortar will be the next asbestos. Some of them still work, but charge a lot to make up for lost time and they see the end of their careers are near. They should have been charging a decent wage all along, but tradespeople are not always the best business people.
What is your line of work? At the end of your career do you expect to be crippled? Do you get paid vacations and holidays, a health plan, stock options, worker's comp if you are hurt on the job? Bet your tile guy doesn't.
I'm not saying he's the best tile guy in the world; I don't know him. Check out some of his past work. If you trust that he'll do a good job and stand behind his work, hire him. Like your buddies say it's REALLY hard to find good tradespeople, especially if you're not a GC providing recurring work.
Mike
Good points, Mike. I appreciate your input...Guess there are pros and cons to all lines of work...I won't bore you with my profession...
I guess the bottom line is this: The going rate for for a 8' X 7' bathroom in California using tile as described, American Standard sink and toilet, one window, shower (no bath), sheet rock, and plumbing (for which I already paid) will set you back about $45,000 (total finished price) labor and material...I guess that is reasonable.
It is depressing that a dual income household (in a "so-called" professional capacity), can't afford to hire someone to do work for them...Depressing. Probably says a lot about our economy and the direction we are going...I guess that is my conclusion and I'll have to think of alternatives. I do appreciate your help, though.
I won't bore you with my profession
You're a lawyer... aren't you? LOL Just a guess!
You're a lawyer... aren't you?
No, but let's say I was...actually I'm YOUR lawyer and I charge you $7000.00 for 28 hours of work...Wouldn't you be curious as to whether this was an obscene amount?--Afterall this is $250.00 per hour. Or, would you happily open your wallet and pay because the lawyer has "overhead and profit." (that's another softball)...he, he.
When you bought your last truck, did you pay the dealer whatever he wanted or did you question the price he quoted and checked with other dealers to see if this is reasonable/the best you could do?
When you bought your home (say in California where a $500K home is a "dump") did wouldn't you wonder whether the $30K realtor's fee was "worth it" compared to the amount of time and effort that went into selling your home?
That's all that I'm doing here...If 7K is what the market is then that's it. Apparently it is the market. Thats fine. I appreciate you validating the bid. Good to know this is reasonable.
I would think some of you would like to take this opportunity to learn from a customer's perspective...what some of these prices seem like, and then use this information to help explain to your own customer's why "X" cost "Y dollars." Just a thought.
"charge you $7000.00 for 28 hours of work..."
OK, if you're counting hours, how many hours will the tilesetter spend giving estimates, both for people who hire him and people who don't? How many unpaid hours will he spend running his business and dealing with all that it entails? How many hours of unpaid time on your job will he spend running around for stuff, mobilizing and demobilizing, etc. etc. etc.
And, what gave you the idea that it will only take (4) 7-hour days, start to finish??
You are clearly in no position to analyze the proposal you have been given. You have a monumental lack of understanding of trades work and the business that goes along with it. You know nothing about what it takes and you're in here trying to decide if it's justified.
$7000 is about right for the work you described, but add another $2500 for dealing with your attitude about it.
"... and you're in here trying to decide if it's justified."
...And that is a bad thing?
$7000 is about right for the work you described, but add another $2500 for dealing with your attitude about it.
Ouch. Another softball hit out of the park...
"You are clearly in no position to analyze the proposal you have been given. You have a monumental lack of understanding of trades work and the business that goes along with it. You know nothing about what it takes and you're in here trying to decide if it's justified."Of course he doesn't.That is way he is asking.But what else should he do. Take the whatever the guy ask for without questions. Whether is is $500 or $50,000?
I guess....
Yesterday we got a quote in for some printing. It was X$. My initial reaction was, why so much?? It seemed very expensive and I wondered why they would charge so much. But that was really my gut telling me it's more than I want to spend. I have no idea about their costs of doing business or doing my job.
My point is, he shouldn't bother trying to decide whether the costs associated with someone's proposal are "justified", he should decide whether or not he wants to buy the tile job. People are constantly trying to decide how much they think tradespeople should make. They say... oh... that's semiskilled blue-collar work done by people who didn't go to college... max $25 per hour and I'd rather pay $15. Maybe the tilesetter in question makes $125K per year, owns a nice house, has kids in college, and vacations on tropical islands. The PNUT gallery guy would probably think that's excessive, that tilesetting shouldn't pay like that, and that would be his basis for saying the job is too expensive. He should get a couple of quotes for the work and decide if he wants to pay that much or not.
PNUTIII "I would think some of you would like to take this opportunity to learn from a customer's perspective...what some of these prices seem like, and then use this information to help explain to your own customer's why "X" cost "Y dollars." Just a thought. "Believe me..................we learn plenty.
Believe me..................we learn plenty.
Personally, I haven't attained the level of "know it all" yet. I still learn every day...even in my field of expertise (which for today is sh*t stirrer)...he, he.
Sorry, I'm a little bored. In all seriousness, people here have been great...I've received really good information, leads, and suggestions in the past. I honestly appreciate everyone's comments. Including the comments about my attitude...well deserved. (Tomorrow, I'll be better).
Print the thread and give it to your tile guy!!!
Bet you'll see him smile!!!!!!!!!
And good on ya for taking the hard knocks in stride.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Print the thread and give it to your tile guy!!! Bet you'll see him smile!!!!!!!!!
We'd both probably get a laugh out of it...I never said he wasn't a nice guy...He's as nice as they come--
As I said, he actually showed up! To me thats a huge improvement over some other experiences I've had. Clean, presentable, easy to talk to, listened and answered my questions...no doubt a good guy....It's just this was the first time in which I was going to hire someone that my price expectations were so wildly off (I thought betwee $4K and $5--but it was really based on a guess)...So, that's why I thought I'd check here...
Print the thread and give it to your tile guy!!! Bet you'll see him smile!!!!!!!!!
Ever think he may be reading it already?
"Affairs on the border cannot be judged by standards that hold elsewhere."
i'm a contractor with 16 years experience, licensed, have two kids, mtg.-- the whole enchilada and i just bid a smallish bath with tub already in place, bare subfloor, drywalled room ready for hardiboard around the tub and ply on the floor followed by hardiboard, then tiling tub 5' up off tub with loose, arty, 4x4, floor with 2x2 washed stone tile and small washed stone tile above ped sink. i said ballpark $10-12k with owner supplying tile. I'm in Seattle.
so $7k for what you are doing is a steal! mud pans take time believe me.
sir, you need to think about your statement that you have nothing to compare it to, you have your arrrogance that's what you have and that doesn't count in this situation except to you. sorry, but you need to hear that. really, you don't have anything to compare it to since you don't work in the trades and really know what it takes to do things, be it a small project or something more complex like a tile job. heck, check out a book on tile setting from Taunton press, there's lots of pages on technique. you know, in the old days men were apprenticed in a given trade for a long time and that's all they did and it took a long time to learn the trade properly...give that a thought, it still takes time to learn the proper way to do things and one either learns it from a master or by trial and error as an auto-didact! it is part of the human condition to think things will only take a fraction of what it really takes to do them, why would we start half of the things we start if it were otherwise!!
so, i do understand your ignorance, but you need to understand that if you want a professional to come in and do the job you have to pay a decent sum, if you want to oversee the job and hire some illegal immigrants to do the job, assuming you have the skill to teach them then you can probably save a ton of money, but you don't have the skills!
"so, i do understand your ignorance..."
Sir, I'll have you know that I am educated beyond my intelligence...
[In his best Vin Scully baseball commentator's voice....]
"Pnut has been getting racked all day...Why does the manager keep him in there? Obviously he doesn't have his stuff...He's been throwing softballs all day long and batter after batter has been hitting 'em out of the park!"
I appreciate the information on your job in Seattle (go Mariners!). It does give me something to compare it to...
overeducated underemployed eh?
you have a good sense of humor, makes all the difference----and disarming!
cheers!
BG
No, but let's say I was...actually I'm YOUR lawyer and I charge you $7000.00 for 28 hours of work...Wouldn't you be curious as to whether this was an obscene amount?--Afterall this is $250.00 per hour
That made me so mad, I'm NOT going to
replayreply.SamT
Edited 3/25/2005 8:22 pm ET by SamT
No, but let's say I was...actually I'm YOUR lawyer and I charge you $7000.00 for 28 hours of work...
If I paid a lawyer for 28 hours of work I would have nothing in the end.
If I paid a tile setter for 28 hours worth of work I would have an asset in the end, and it would be worth the cost of itself.
Now which one is worth the money?
HA!!!
Boy oh boy did you choose the wrong person to ask about lawyer's fees....
But in the sense of decorum... I will refrain from a complete explanation. Suffice it to say that you obviously have not had the fine pleasure of rectal inversion at the hands of an attorney!
A simple search should yield the whole messy story.
After thinking about your question... minus the smartazz comments... I am inclined to say that 7k would be about 1k too high in Columbus, Ohio... give or take 500. I am basing that on a job that I looked up that involved much less prep... and about the same description of the actual space. I am only adding 1k for the prep... and it comes out to about 6k.
Keep in mind... this is sight unseen. I also haven't figured any unusual circumstances... and second story would be an unusual circumstance that would involve up-charge.
All in all... considering the differences between California and here.. the additional prep... you are probably getting a darn good deal at 7k.
It is depressing that a dual income household (in a "so-called" professional capacity), can't afford to hire someone to do work for them..
That's why Lowe's and Home Depot are doing so well.
"Affairs on the border cannot be judged by standards that hold elsewhere."
Worker's compensation, safety compliance, unemployment, federal unemployment, matching social security, general liability insurance, health insurance, fuel, tools (don't ya think those things ever wear out?)... are just to name a few.
Add to that the other 20 laws that simply regulate employment, the accountant's fees, the lawyer, the bad debt allowance... and you have barely scratched the surface (doesn't running a business sound fun?).
It's a lot more than just "a great salary for a couple of day's work". It's a business.
BTW... I have two bachelor degrees, and am a thesis defense short of an MBA. Cum Laude on one; Summa Cum Laude on the other.
Edumication don't means diddly if'n ya can't apply it, er have'n the common sensimibility ta make it werk fer ya in tha real world. I are just a hillwilliam (a hillbilly with an education)... shucks... I is lucky ta make it outta bed in tha mernin'! But I shore can make good in ma double-wiiiide... tha missus and I are fixin' ta finely put 'er up on blocks this here year!
You didn't help yourself much by attempting to figure out what goes into "overhead". It is obvious that you are have dug a shallow hole in quicksand. There is an old hillbilly saying that is very applicable in this instance... "when ya find yerself sinkin' in quicksand... stop diggin' "!
Now... where is my "ol truck"?
"BTW... I have two bachelor degrees, and am a thesis defense short of an MBA. Cum Laude on one; Summa Cum Laude on the other"
I guess if I was that smart I'd be in the construction trades too...
I know I dug the hole....Sometimes it is fun to lob the softballs to watch you guys hit em out of the part. Thanks for playing.
I guess if I was that smart I'd be in the construction trades too...
Nope... I spent many years in the corporate-exec world.. THEN got smart and came back to construction (first love)!
You are indeed a smart man to do something you love...way too much time is spent at work to do something you hate. Good for you in finding your spot...not too many people figure this out.
I bet you'd do a bathroom tile job for free if someone, ahem, asked...just kidding. In all seriousness, dealing with people who actually enjoy what they are doing makes a HUGE difference. I bet this comes through to your customers when the deal with you...
Search the threads on business issues. There are lots of folks who can explain (and have explained it) much more effectively and eloquently than I can. That's if you really want to know.Your comments regarding what this tile person's overhead might be do show both a lack of understanding of business and a smart azz attitude. If I have you pegged wrong, I apologize, but clients like you, those that GC their own projects (sounds like what you're doing) are not very attractive prospects to work for. In my experience they have been the most unwilling/unable to let me make a profit.You make no mention of that in your post. Profit, so you know,is not what you get paid for each hour you work. It is your reward for the risks you take in being self employed. Profit is only made after you have paid yourself a wage, bought your materials, paid your subs and finally, settled with dear uncle. I don't know what percentage your tile guy hopes to make in that area, but, for his sake, I hope it would be ample.Lastly, I am sure it is tough to find reliable people to do work for you as a homeowner. It's not that much easier as a contractor. In your case it adds up to frustration. In my case it costs me money on top of frustration. I need to get paid for that.I hope this helps you understand a narrow slice of things a little better. even if it is just what buttons to push to pizz a contractor off.Mike
Good to see someone is close by Maryland Mike -- I'm in Chevy Chase -- maybe we could sponsor a breaktime fest in DC Ara one of these years --- all the best -- Dudley
You in the business? If so, we probably run in some of the same circles. I do most of my work in the B-CC area, some in upper NW.Mike
Dang, I miss Perrys.....
Where are ya' now? Perry's is great.
Buffalo, N.Y.....nothing comes close to Perrys here....we have lots of beautiful old houses here, but for the most part it's put on vinyl & wrap the trim land....
what kind of work do you do, & who for....I still have some contacts in the DC area, & may be looking to line up someone for a kitchen project in Chevy Chase....
Re-read Dude's comments; I think he hit it on the head. It's not clear how many square feet of tile you are talking about, but $7k sounds reasonable. The fact that you are specifying and providing materials is a red flag that you will be "over-involved" in the process. Spec'ing backerboard on the floor and a mud bed on the walls is a bit unusual, another red flag. Dealing with small hex tiles isn't the toughest installation in the world, but not the easiest either. Lots of angles and corners to deal with.
Doing a simple backsplash is a project most homeowners could handle. Your kind of project takes a lot of experience and skill. There is a lot of potential for things to go wrong, especially with owner-supplied material, so the tile contractor needs a contingency in case his schedule gets messed up because of you.
If $7k still seems too high to you, ask for references from the tile shop where you got your tiles. Or get quotes on vinyl flooring and a fiberglass shower unit.
Mike
PS--you DID know that this kind of question tends to get under the skin of the contractors here, right? For every flaky contractor there's a couple dozen flaky homeowners who make our business difficult.
P,
Yer really takin' it on the nose here...............
In addittion to what others have said..........your guy has drive time. While the average joe working for corporate America may not consider this, it is still his time.
What about the time it took for him to come out and look at your project, answer questions, prepare and mail the bid?? You DID pay him to prepare it right?? Just where do you think that time came from?? It is his time. If you have a need for it, you should rightfully compensate him for it. That time is now the first line in his bid to you. He'll recover it one way or another.
Unless you can assure this guy that he will finish in 80 hrs, your of base using that as a benchmark. Maybe he hopes he will, and has to cover his butt.
I'll bet this bathroom is on the second floor, did you figure his time to hump all those materials up the steps, not to mention the countless trips up and down??
Just something to think about.
You may very well be projecting a bad energy toward anyone you meet in regards to having work done for you. If you think the numbers are high, then perhaps you should consider what attitude you are giving the tradesmen who look at your projects.
A number of red flags were mentioned, that means a lot to proffessional well seasoned craftsmen.
Lose the attitude next time tou solicit some work, and see if things proceed a little differently next time.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
A number of red flags were mentioned, that means a lot to proffessional well seasoned craftsmen.
I think you're right Eric. If I was a guessin' man, I'd guess that the job is a 3500 labor bill and the guy added $3500 so he wouldn't get the job!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I'll try and answer your original question. I too thought it was high at first, but you are asking for some high end stuff. I'm assuming your installing a steamer because of your floated walls and a built-in pan is no simple thing either, especially over a finished area. You are literally asking a guy to carry in 500 lbs. of mud into your house, and if it is a second story, I would probably try to bid myself out of the job as well. The bid may be a little high and you can probably save $1500 w/ someone else. If your guy is truely a master tilesetter he is probably worth it. The problem I come across all the time is these so called experts have no experience and usually aren't any better at it than you, then your $7000 poorer and mad forever. The problem is too many guys are in construction for the money, they price themselves out of jobs, end up not working enough, then try to get paid for their down time. Honest days work for an honest days pay and you'll be plenty busy.
CO--
Actually the floated walls were the tiler's idea--because this is an old house, the walls aren't particularly straight, so he thought this was the way to go...as far as the floor goes, he originally wanted to mud the floors as we (because the aren't level), but due to the placement of the toilet plumbing, we needed to go thinner. These weren't my suggestions they were his...the difference between the mud floor and the durarock was $300.00--in my book, not that big of a difference (I would have preferred the muc, but we are stuck with the durarock).
The big cost was for the shower ($4500.00), but again 3X4, but 10 foot ceilings and the shower pan--which to be honest, I don't know how extensive time consuming it is....the main floor is 56 square feet and that is where the marble hex is (and perhaps installing marble hex is more difficult than tile...but we aren't putting a design in it (i.e. pulling hex and replacing with other colors).
You are right, the shower is on the second floor...I would be happy to lug the materials upstairs for some savings, but I doubt he'd be willing.
Dispite my beyotching, I don't mind paying for a good job (and I have seen some of his work and have friends that have used him with no complaints). For most of the people who have done work for me, I have felt it was a fair deal all the way around...This bid, however, just didn't come close to my expectations--but then again, I hadn't done much research--hence my questions here.
Thanks for replying (and getting to the meat of question/not taking the bait)...maybe it was too crazy of question afterall.
Pnut, $27.50 a square foot for labor in a shower is reasonable. Simple, flat, durock'd areas might be $10 to $20 a square foot, depending on where you are. Floated mud walls (wet packed) used to be the standard, so you must have an old-timer there or at least a guy with some experience. And he's a nice guy to boot? Worth his weight in gold, he is.
Hey, good job for taking the heat. Lots of homeowners come in here and don't like to hear the truth.
Still interested in what your line of work is. We can all learn from each other. Does it involve peanuts?
Mike
I'm glad I got this post going in the right direction. Another thing, we are just talking about 3x6 tile offset, so your really not going to see plumb. Durock should be fine and he'll be scoring and snaping. It's not stone on the walls. If you want it perfect do what he says and pay him. Otherwise there appears to be room for haggleing.
Seems high to me. We do this sort of bath all the time.
But, before the tile guy gets there, all the walls are straightened/plumbed/resquared to each other, so no need for wetbed shower. Studs are notched for the pvc pan so no bulges at the bottom where the pan folds on itself. Most of the baths we do get radiant, so the tile guy levels the floor.
Interesting how some posters think 7 k is low. Isnt it just subway tile and hex on the floor?
No man-hour-eating borders to lay out, the walls dont have to line up with the floor, etc.
Shower ceilings are easy with latex modified thinset and a trowel. The tiles are almost impossible to even pull back off 30 seconds after setting if you are using the right trowel and thinset...
Round here, 4 grand (includes setting the shower threshold and door threshold also)would about do it.
Thats after quite a bit of carpentry to get the old bathroom plumb and level.
If your bath is just stripped to the studs and then redrywalled, without straightening anything, the tile guy will have to turd polish his tile work to make it look good, and he would have to charge accordingly.
P.S. Make sure you have a fan near your closet shower as they are notorious for mildew. Have the glass door stop short of the head so's it can ventilate.
I think yer bass ackwards..."float the walls and durorock the floor"
You want the guy to drypack a mud bed vertically?
7k for magic, pretty cheap.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi
I've removed tile from floated walls, morter and chicken wire 1.5" thick, it was brutally strong. Supposedly the only way to do a steamer right.
..."float the walls and durorock the floor"
Actually, Sphere, this was the tiler's suggestion...see replay to CO Remodeler..
I recently completed a mud shower where the homeowner supplied the tile. It was a line item in part of a much larger project that I assigned $8000 to. After completing I figured I barely broke even on that aspect of the job. I remember saying I would make up the difference somewhere else.
So I dont think your tilesetters quote is out of line. Wait till you get the quote from the glass door fabricator! mine was $3500
You're not alone, pnutIII. I sent along some of the responses the seasoned guys have been giving you to a guy I know that dabbles in the occasion reno job. Thinks he's got it all figured out. Below is his comments about some of the responses so far:
"The whole thing sounds like a joke to me! What an eye opener listening to some of these guys. You'd think they were talking about old masters like picasso, da vinci or someone like that.
It reminds me of realtors thinking that they are in the same class as donald trump or the bronfmans.What a racket it sounds like the reno biz is in the states. Throw around a bit of trade jargon and the price is anybodys guess."
See? We builders/trades can't even get respect from our friends! The reason that Homer Depot is offering more "installed" services now is because the average weekend warrior has no idea what the hell it costs to a job, let alone the tools that are required. They hear figures like $5 - $6 per square foot for something, add up the basic sq ftg, don't factor in bulkhead, returns, cut-outs, dust and noise complaints from the significant other(s) and assume anything over their "estimate" is gouging. We renovators might get a bad rap a lot of the times (some of it is deserved) but the number of armchair experts that we run into over the course of a year for outweighs us. When a homeowner laments that he got a lousy job (from a guy that said he could tomorrow, for example) I just laugh in his face.
You've taken some pretty big hits here today and I applaud you for coming back and apologizing for it. Hope it all works out for you.
Keep your tradesman well hydrated with coffee or soda, keep out of his way, pay him a percentage partway through the job and I think you'll end up a happy man.
Ken
Goober: One point that everyone seems to have missed is the tile on the ceiling. That is a bit of a challenge as I recall reading. I live in Atlanta, Jawja, and two yrs ago had a 10X10 bath done, including a 4X5 walk in shower. I provided all the tile, delivered to the second floor. Got it with sweat equity, disassembling a display of extremely expensive Italian Porcelain tile at the annual Coverings show in Orlando. It was worth it to me to find a good tilesetter by reputation & get a square foot installation price w/ no haggling. Had a mud pan put in shower. Tile setter was happy not having to scout up all the bits & pieces for the job. I cut & etch glass & stone, and made some custom trim pieces in black granite, so it was no problem coordinating with him on what I needed to get. At least I could speak his language. Because I'm not as fast as he was, he lost a bunch of time one day, & I paid him for it. I did not pay anywhere near $7000 for the install. But I didn't have a ceiling to set, either. Knowing now that you are in CA, and the prices for houses there, $7000 seems reasonable for what you want. My tilesetter quoted the job on four levels - floor prep; floor setting; wall prep; wall setting. When I looked at it that way, it all made sense. If your guy just quoted it as a total sum, it's tough to get any sense of perspective on the costs.
I had some funny experiences getting prices for sub contracted efforts on our house. My tilesetter's prices, given on a square foot basis I could put into perspective, knowing what he had to do from reading here. When I asked for prices to wallboard & finish the walls, I got three bids. The highest was over three times the lowest. I went w/ the middle price.
As the GC for my own house, Yes, I ran up every red flag known to this web site - but I raised a lot of them because I have been a faithful reader of these threads for better than 5 yrs, now, and wanted things done the way the tradesmen talk here. Amazing how many others don't do things their way. I'm also a natural born PITA. But at least I know it. I had all the same problems you did w/ subs not calling back, not showing up, etc. There are a lot of flakes out there, but also a lot of great guys, doing quality work at rational prices (Note that I didn't say "Cheap."). In my book, when asking for prices, if you ask for some sort of breakdown in the quote so you can evaluate what you are paying, it really helps. Especially if done up front. You don't insult the potential sub when you get his lump sum quote and choke, and he knows what to give you. Face it, subs have to have some method of determining their price and we have to have some method of evaluating bids, especially if not getting more than one quote.
Before anyone tries to disembowel me as not knowing business - I am self employed as a glass/stone etcher. I know all the elements of cost in rolling up a bid. I learned costing in a very strange place - Uncle Sam's Army (Remember the $600 hammer - I know the contracting officer that did that. That wasn't the cost of the hammer - it was a bunch of other mods to the contract rolled up. Don't recall why that Dammed hammer was in there.) We required all contractors not bidding on a firm fixed price basis to follow standard Cost Accounting Standards - all of DoD does. All the elements of expense were defined - one that absolutely was not allowed was the cost of preparing a bid. That had to be covered in your overhead. I have been very surprised that people here sometimes charge for a bid. To me, that has always been a No-No. For design work, yes, bid prep, no. I have estimating sheets that I use for a job - they include an overhead line to cover all the costs of the bids for jobs I don't get; that includes site visits & jaw jacking (Marketing) w/ potential clients. And everyone pays it as part of the price when they buy from me. Also include a profit line - after all, profit is just another element of expense to get to the bottom line. And don't forget the taxes you pay as a businessman; another element of expense. If I make a lousy bid, at least I know it - my wife reviews them all and she lets me know it. If someone comes to me as a sole source, it doesn't bother me to tell them all my elements of expense - they don't like it, they can go somewhere else. Oh, yes - for the retirement & health care there's a line - called G&A (General & Admin) - covers that plus a multitude of other sins.
Don
Thought I'd give all of you a follow-up...BUT first:
A HUGE "thank you" to all that responded--very good information, with lots of detai. Great stuff. Also, thanks to all for putting up with my "smart asssiness."
O.K...I was able to get 3 other people to come in and take a look...the bids ranged from $3900.00 at the low end to $7000.00 (the first bid) at the high end. All of the people who came were "nice guys."
I decided to go with a guy who did my inlaws place about 10 years ago...the place still looks great and he has done some of our "friends" places too...He is going to charge $5000.00 for labor--and he is glad that we will be doing the tile order (he doesn't like dealing with the retailers). His one caveat was that we needed to be willing to be fleixible with our timing...I have no problem with that--since I'm doing everything else (and workin' slow). This has been how I've worked with all subs I've brought in.
As a courtesy, I will call back all who submitted bids and inform them of my decision.
Thanks to all who provided info!
I find it curious that your tile guy and the guy who first bid it at $7000 were glad to let you order the tile. For me, a true experienced, confident professional wouldn`t give up that control to an inexperienced person. Perhaps you are getting help from your friend in the business. But for me , if a client wants to order materials because they have a connection I would never take that job. There are usually ommissions and with the long waits for tile trim pieces the whole job can be screwed. If you are telling people over the phone you want to handle the materials maybe that is why they aren`t showing up.
Mac,
>>For me, a true experienced, confident professional wouldn`t give up that control to an inexperienced person.
Do you know waht you're really saying here?
You are saying that only people who have the same policies you do are professional.
You are calling me a hack! (|:>)
'N' that jest ain't troo.
SamT
No ... what he's saying is a real pro realizes that 99.99% of the time "customer supplied materials" ends up screwing up the job!
Either it's the wrong stuff ... it's not all compatable .... or they didn't order enough.
10% "extra" ... why that's just waste. I'll get one less and tell him to just be real careful!
Plus ... "customer supplied materials" is uaually the customers way of saving themselves from that dreaded mark up ... U know ... which pro contractors use to steal even more money from unknowing customers ...
"I want U to be in business forever so I can get any call backs fixed for free .... but I don't actually want to pay you for that service ...."
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Well, two things:
1. I think both tilers are so busy they don't mind having someone else doing the ordering...The tile setter is giving me a tile count, however.
2. I am getting the tile from a friend in the business--he happens to be one of the most respected suppliers in the Bay Area--being a consultant on many t.v. shows and some rags. He is personally involved in the details of the order...It might have been different, if this wasn't the case--but I didn't get that impression from either tiler.
man... let a guy question a price of labor and you guys are all over him... but when it's a material price everyone supply'n the material is a thief, the government is control'n it... some big corp is make'n big profits... ect....
I usually have a good idea about what something should cost... if i get a price thats too low and i like the guy I ask him to explain his price... usually he's missed something... if i don't know or like him I just pass... If i get a price i think is WAY out of the ball park and I like the guy... again i ask him to explain... maybe i missed something.... maybe he was expect'n to do something that we were already going to do and have ready for him... I just like to know where people are come'n from and how they are think'n.... I really do when It's my money...
I know i mentioned on this forum about a sprinker system price... ranged from 40k to 210k... and i swear the 210k guy really wanted the job... this being money from my pocket... as much as i liked the 210k guy i just didn't feel like it was up to me to send his kids to private schools...
and yes if it took the guy 28hrs total for your job (and it'd take anyone else doing the same job 28hour...) 7k might be high... but what if a guy is really good knows his stuff works fast never a wasted move and does a 60hr job in 35hrs... should he be paid less for the same job just because he works well and knows exactly what he's going to do 5 steps ahead of himself...?
i pay $195 an hour for a guy to fix/service my elevator and i pay drive time.... I expect the dude to frick'n know how to fix it... and they think i should be happy when they send a second guy out at no charge to help guy #1 who doesn't have a clue... yet i get billed for the 3 hrs he sat read'n the instructions before he figured out... he didn't know how to fix it... then i get billed for 1hr when i call and tell em they left a screw out of a call plate and the button is stuck behind the plate... I'll never make that type call again... (reason being he'd have spent that time put'n the screw in anyway)
question everything if you don't understand... if they won't answer... find someone else...
jmho
pony
I like buying mortar, underlayment, fasteners (stuff that can't be seen but holds the work together) and prefer it if the customers buy the tile and grout (I just specify sanded or unsanded).I just installed a countertop this week where the customer ordered the countertop and declared (after I installed it), "That's not what I ordered!" I am really glad they made the purchase (and had two weeks to inspect it before I installed it). Now it is between them and the supplier, "I'm just the installer." I don't pick colors or finish products (though I do have preferences and have declined to install some products).
My bad. Apologies to you and Sam T for implying that people who install jobs set up by homeowners are unprofessional. There are lot`s of ways to do things and lot`s of things to learn.
Most of my work comes from retail suppliers and big box home improvement stores. When the supplier or homeowner calls me for installation, the finish materials purchase is usually already made. So all I have to buy is install materials, and that suits me fine.I think I understand how you and Jeff Buck do things though. If I did more specialized work or larger projects like additions or entire houses and customers came directly to me in the planning stage--I would probably have more control over materials. I'm sure that has advantages too. The trick is to make sure the homeowner thinks they chose the design, color, etc. even if it was your idea.Edit to add: My experience has been that about half of the time the HO makes a mistake in purchasing materials, if a pro (good supplier salesperson or designer) is not actively involved in the purchase. Most of the time we catch the problem well ahead of the install date. I have experienced very few problems with projects screwed up because of customer purchases. I've only had 3 callbacks out of the last 100 or so projects (two mistakes I made--island cabinets on top of floating laminate, regrouting w/o removing enough old grout, and one because the HO didn't like a product they chose NMP).
Edited 4/24/2005 4:22 pm ET by basswood
Let us know how the job finally turns out.
Good luck.
"What do you mean it's 'last call'? I just got here."
Yeah, that bid is very high (even for a high cost of living area, or for some of the higher trades cost areas of the country)
One of two things seems to be going on here:
1. the tile guy is super busy, and he is bidding very, very high on jobs. He will probably be offered a smaller number of jobs, but he will make more money at them.
2. He doesn't really want to do this job, but if the price is good enough, he'll do it. For $7,000 he'd take the job and make some good money.
I have done several bath tile jobs over the past 18 years or so, and they are all different. Each job must be considered on its own merits, or pitfalls. You can only REALLY compare two or more bids for this particular job in order to get a sense of whether this job is priced too high, or priced fairly for your area, or the guy just doesn't want the job. Trying to get an idea on price from a SIMILAR bathroom (size and type of work) won't give you accurate information. Like I said, each one is different.
You asked a fair question, and got some really bad, and sometimes rude replies. Don't let it get to you. Some of these guys that blasted you are the same people that haggle price, or complain about price on just about everything THEY buy for their home, or for themselves. Everyone wants the best deal that they can get. You should not have to be an exception. However, quality work, with quality craftsmanship does cost more. You have to decide if quality matters more than price - or not.
Just my humble opinion...
James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
PNUT,
I've been watching this thread and where it's going. you got some good answers, well ok the six that didn't focus on beating you up anyway.
I think it might help if you understood a little more about the tradesmen and there businsses. Let say as a self employed Carpenter my goal was to make $75K a year for myself. That is after expenses, all overhead. I can realistically expect to work 40 hours a week for about 48 weeks a year. So after expenses I need to pay myself $1565 a week. My expenses would look a little like this: A truck-$400 a month, business insurance-$200 a month, health insurance-$800 a month, general operating costs-$800 a month.
So, $1565 a week plus $550 for expenses and were at $2100 plus 10% profit were at $2310.
NOw try to remember, IF I come to your house for 6 hours, you buy the whole day. He needs to make X dollars per day every working day. I'm not a tile guy but based on what you described I think 4-7 hour days is optomistic. I would think more like Six plus the time he has involved in bidding the job.
Six days = $2520 plus material plus profit. These are probably very conservative prices, I used Carpenter rates for Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Not Tile guy rates for California.
Around here I would expect the job you described to cost me about $4000 or maybe a little more just as you described.
Now for the not so pleasant part. If I arrived to bid a job for you, you had done a significant amount of the work yourself, you specified certian aspects of the job without discussing them with me, the Pro, and the attitude that came thru in your first few posts came thru in person, I would automatically add 50%.
Your Tile guy is probably very busy. If he loses this job, so what? what he sees is the potential to lose money when your job hits day eight or day nine because you got the wrong material or something else went wrong.
One more question. Why only one bid?
The other guys either wouldn't even come out, or did and never got back to him.
At least that's what i think I got out of his posts.
Robert, I emailed you last week from here and it bounced.
I was curious about the Otis or Ottis thing you mentioned in another thread.
Email me with some info if you would.
Thanks, EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
PNUT, where are you? I've browsed through all these threads and I'm sure you've mentioned it but tell me anyway. That 7k might seem high to you but in may be right in the market. I think about something called "perceived value" in my bids around here. What it all boils down to is comparing all the bids you get, and how the bidders explain the job and the details to you. I tell a lot of my customers that it's not the labor they're paying for, it's the expertise involved in getting the job done right and being prompt. Do the bidders come across as professional or do they just blow through without explaining the processes involved?
Do they bring to light some potential roadblocks (problems) that may occur during the renovating process or do they just tell you "it's a piece of cake" and ask for the money? I like explaining all the above to potential customers and establish a relationship of sorts before we even think of signing the contract. I've found that explaining conditions that may occur before the building starts eases any anxiety somewhat and it also shows the customer that you are prepared in the event something doesn't go as planned.
Granted, the time spent on the job may seem like a short time to you, but think of it this way...years ago I bid and got a kitchen renovation job. This was 1984 FYI. I bid 5k to strip out the old cabinetry, install new cabinets and countertops. Me and a buddy did this in 1 and 1/2 days....the owner was thrilled with the job but was a little perturbed over the dollar amount versus the time spent on site. I asked him one question and settled every ruffled feather he had...I asked him if he would have felt like he got his moneys worth if I'd have spent 2 weeks on the job, disrupting his home life for that same amount of time, requiring him to rearrange his schedule for evening meals, etc...all this in a very polite manner, no sarcasm involved at all...he looked at me for all of about 15 seconds and said he never looked at it that way and was actually pleased that I brought this to his attention. I ended up renovating most of his other rooms in his house later that year as a result of my professionalism and "getting in and getting out" and not disrupting his lifestyle....I gave him an avenue to look at that the average homeowner would never consider...he recommended me to many of his friends and I did a lot of work for them as well.....thats the "expertise" I was talking about in the previous paragraph......
Hope this helps some if you haven't made a decision yet.......good luck....
If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
$7000 sounds cheap if it includes demo and removal of debris -especially for second floor work.
IMHO, unless the tops are crowned on those marble mosaics they look like junk.
Good luck
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski