In the past, most of our work has been on one or two rooms, maybe a small addition or finishing a basement where getting the measurements is easy. But lately I’ve gotten calls for some pretty elaborate spaces. Just came back from measuring a job that involves remodeling an entire commercial building where the existing layout is a maze of little rooms, big rooms with irregular walls, utility closets, hallways with notches cut into em etc etc. By the time I was done my head was spinning and I felt like I needed a trail of breadcrumbs to find my way out. Just hope I didn’t miss anything… :S
Anyway, what do you guys who run into this do to make sure you’re keeping everything straight etc etc. I think I’m generally pretty organized, use graph paper, maintain a consistant scale and so forth but sheesh… any tips?
TIA
PaulB
Replies
yeah, enlist an architect.
I've found bldg dept's to be very specific when it comes to commercial buildings.
What Maverick said. The other ideas of a digital camera, make your own notes etc are important but get an archy. I'm almost all commercial any more. I know here in Ohio & other places you have to be a registered archy or engineer to get drawings approved for a permit, you should check into that. Also be aware there are differences in the code between residential & commercial.
Off to wait on a plumbing inspector for a dance skool
I was lucky in having some AutoCAD experience. I try to quickly draw an as-built from from my on-site sketches . I measure at chest level, right to left, from corner to feature edge, not accumulating, all around each room. Precision is to 1/8"
A sketch would start at the first corner (right hand corner is always zero). Go from there to the left, to the right edge of the window molding, say 52-1/18". Window molding-to-molding is 42-1/16" wide - make a note that sashes are is 32" wide, 41" high, sill 24" AF;. 2/2 panes. Left edge of window molding to right edge of door molding is 61-3/8". Door molding-to-molding is 46-1/2" wide, note that door is 3-0 x 7-0, inswing lefthand. Left side of door molding to left hand corner of wall is 12-7/8".
There you have one wall. Do all four walls like that; measure wall thicknesses where you go through a door to another room. Measure ceiling heights for each room; make general notes of base and crown and casing.
Sounds time consuming, but it's fast, and you can do it yourself - longest you'll extend a tape is feature-to-feature. If it's more than ~10', I'll measure from right feature ~midway to the left, make a tick on the wall, then from the next feature to the left, back to the tick and add 'em.
Then I sit down as soon as I can on CAD, and try to decipher my squiggles. Make each room as a stand-alone "box", then push them together by the wall thicknesses I measured.
I can easily scan an old sketch and post to demonstrate, if you'd like.
Forrest - wordy, and not even an architect
Sounds similar to what I'm doing but when it's convenient, I sure wouldn't mind seeing your sketches and finished drawings. Thanks!PaulB
Here, you can see how rough and quickee my sketches are - but, if I can get to them within a day or two, I'll remember everything.
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Forrest
Edited 1/2/2008 4:11 pm by McDesign
That's a lot like the way I do it except that I use feet and inches (unless under 1 foot in which case I circle the number to indicate inches - an 'inch' mark looks too much like an 11) and I also record all MEP/FP information and double-check overall room size wall-to-wall at the centers of the rooms +/- . If I can run a tape clear from inside of outside wall to inside of outside wall it's also helpful to have large-scale overall dimensions too.
In older structures more attention needs to be paid to (1) differing wall thicknesses and (2) out-of-level conditions.
BTW ... some of your strings don't add up ;o) <G, D & R>
Jeff
Edited 1/2/2008 10:00 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
Reason I don't do feet and inches is that the way I enter data in AutoCAD, it's easier to type 55-1/2 than 4'7-1/2". Also, working right to left (so I can hold the tape in my left hand), the numbers are upside down and I somehow feel safer with all inches
Plus your thing about wondering if it's 11" or 1'1", or 1-11/16" or 11-1/16"
Forrest
You can always use a .01" tape or chain as surveyors do. Much more accurate, easier imput into AutoCad, and less likely for transposition. All our plans were drawn that way, and we had to convert for the carps and dirt workers.
First of all, let me caution against using the term, "as built". What you should use is "recorded". I don't know the reason for this by lawyers are involved.
This type of project screams out for the use of one of these new laser measuring tools.
Forest,I disagree with measuring and including the various trim moldings. These are merely decorations and may be changed. What you may need is the rough openings or at least something symetrical. I don't do framing, but I believe the center line is what really matters.
~Peter
Johann Strauss was a genius. Rikard Strauss was a bumbling idiot.
paul.... i do a" measured drawing of existing conditions"
i do the exterior with opening dimensions. i take all the digital photos i think i may need
i use a tape & a digital tape... i use a rough sketch .. then go inside and do another rough sketch ... then i go back to CA .... draw the floor plan as best i can
.. do a layout sheet and export site photos into the layout so i have a visual
then i go back and fill in the shell with another on-site measure
some things have to be perfect... some don't....
once i have a measured drawing i like... then i can start the remodel design
hey... that new D80 is something elseMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You're right that the CL is the most important.
Reason for measuring to trim edges is expediency. Easy to measure to a feature; hard to measure to a theoretical point (CL). When I put the dims into CAD, I assume the CLs are equidistant between the sides of the casings, and I dimension to that, and I have a note as to the millwork size and height.
Look at my final CAD sketch, and you'll see that I've done that.
Forrest
Edited 1/4/2008 6:31 am by McDesign
I had an intresting experience with "as built" versus what the plans showed when I was an acting manager of a HUD highrise for seniors. A lady on fourth floor kept complaining about her toilet overflowing with suds every so often. Well, according to the drawings, the waste stack was way at the other end of the hallway from her apartment. Finally looked in the ceiling (drop ceiling, removed a panel) and see that the plumber had a "better way" and put the waste stack at her end of the hallway and occasionally the lady in the apartment above did laundry in a little portable washer and the volume of water was to much for the pipe and it backed up into the toilet below.
That, incidentally, was a plumber who forgot to sweat the hot water supply to a kitchen sink and the fitting let go, of course on a Friday right at five and we couldn't figure out where the leak on fourth floor was coming from. By Monday we were catching a five gallon bucket of water every few hours in the maintenance room on ground floor, after it made its way down from where it started on fifth floor!
Depends on what the record drawings are for - if you are doing a kitchen layout with cabinets or other type of built-ins you must know where the trim is.
Jeff
I'm doing only kitchens, baths, and built-ins now, but in some cases of complex rooms and spaces, I use a digital camera to take photographs in all directions, and even up-close shots of details.
Before I got my camera, I researched and got one with the widest possible angle for its wide-zoom look. Having the equivalent of a 28mm lens is what you want. This makes for getting "roomscape" inside shots.
For doing the photos, it helps to have a few cheap clip-on painter's spotlights, just simple aluminum cones with 100 watt bulbs inside, and some 12 foot extension cords. Helps throw light where the natural or room lighting won't.
Taking and recording every possible type of measurement, I then use Google Sketchup to make a to-scale 3D model of the space. The photos help greatly when constructing the model.
Works like a dream.
I use AutoCAD LT to draw an as-built of every job I do and of every house I own.
On my own house: If I can get the original plans, I can put them into a file in a day. Otherwise, it takes a few months as I fit it into daily routines (get up, do morning things, walk the dog, swim, work out, run, bike, do house projects, measure a room, input info into file, and so on).
When I am working, I put the plans they give me into a file, and then create my own as-builts as I work. I also create a complete picture history of my work and put it on CD. If I work for someone else, I give them a copy of the CD and a printout of the as-builts.
Just to clarify... I do use CAD (CA) but my "problem" is more how to make sure that my sketches are accurate, complete and ummm legible ;)
But great input, thanks guys!PaulB
It usually takes me two trips to get good drawings. I do the same sketches as McD and then convert to autocad, and then go back and find out why the dimensions don't add up. Or why there's a 36" door in a 24" wall."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
As a surveyor, I've had to do very complicated drawings of building interiors and exteriors. Draw it as if you were drawing it for a draftsperson to interpret.
Get a yellow surveyors field-book. Keep your notes in that , and use your digital camera with your tape measure in areas that you may not remember well. Make a separate view of overhead and side-view. Orthographic only when it's a simple box. A good mechanical pencil is a necessity also. Don't try to do it to scale. Just draw it as you see it on one page, and use the facing page for notes.
The FB fits in your back pocket too so you won't lay it down and forget it.
Why not to scale?PaulB
If you have the line dimensioned you don't need scale. A field drawing is just to facilitate the accuracy of the drawing in the office, by CAD or hand. You can do it to scale, but in all my 30 years of surveying and dealing with draftspeople they didn't need it.
However, you should be able to pick up the FB a year from now and visualize the job in your head. Three dimensions are tougher than two, but I've done a lot of both, and it's a good system. The notes are the key. May help to put a north arrow or some other way to orient yourself also.
Symbols are helpful too. Faucets, outlets, BR stuff, wiring and HVAC runs. Make a symbol legend at the beginning of the job and use those instead of words.
Put down who helped you on the job too, or the subs used and all the contact info for anybody else you may need to contact in the future.
Edited 1/2/2008 7:46 pm ET by TomT226
Interesting, especially coming from someone with as much as experience as you. Thanks...PaulB
Have drawn those big boxes divided into a gazillion little crannies before. It's a pain, but worth it if you're doing a lot of work. In lieu of a CAD program, a cheap drafting board with an attached Paraline bar might be worth it. Throw in a couple 30-60/45 triangles, an adjustable triangle, a scale and some drafting tape. And a lot of erasers.
Field measuring tip: do the overall dimensions of the building and large areas, then do the individual dimensions. Don't add up a bunch of smaller dimensions to get an overall (overall always takes precedence). The overalls give you a check against the interior, which sometimes seems to exist in a parallel universe where your previous measurements mean nothing.
If you think a camera is necessary, you might incorporate the shots into your plans. Number and show the direction you take them. Then add the thumbnail photos (numbered) to your set.
beavis-- huh, huh, i said 'cranny'
For complicated stuff--like plumbing in a wall that will be covered later, I take lots of photos and reference them (what wall, where taken, compass direction, etc.). Could even tie photos into drawings like some magazines do!
As always, tons of good ideas. Thanks everyone!PaulB
OK, now you got your Architect. First off, you must be comfortable working with him. Most Architects don't get too dirty...that's said with respect to those of you Architects who do! {we do have interns for a reason ;) }
I do a lot of historic work so field measurement of existing spaces is critical. Years of additions/alterations/damage repair, etc can be a challenge to measure.
All of the techniques presented by others are great, I wouldn't disagree with any of them. My addition to this discussion would be to prioritize the internal spaces. What will be demoed, what will be altered, where are the utilities, make note of the structural elements that may be, or need to be, changed.
You know what you are being asked to do but the walls may contain more than air and not finding things in the first review of the space may put you into a bind with the owner (as in "You should have seen that before! I'm not paying you more 'cause you missed that!" Now ask me how I know that).
The point someone made about overall dimensions is probably the best way of "finding" those little spaces that will give you a serious headache. (Ah, a double wall plumbing chase! And 18"dp!) I do overalls for all interior spaces as well and fill in the windows/doors/fixtures, etc.
And establish the age of the structure. Somethng built in 1950 is very different from 1999 or 1837(my house). Commercial properties are built for longevity and tend not to be difficult to measure out. Residential structures can be a challenge.
ciao, ted
I'm still new at all this, but Google Sketchup rocks! The free version won't let you print out 0.25"/foot prints, but if you're getting an architect anyways: there ya go!
After only a couple minutes of noodling around, you should be able to - at the very least - slap down a bunch of 4.5" x whatever rectangles to represent drywalled 2x4 walls. You can get your bearings that way.
I recommend giving it a try!
Edited 1/4/2008 12:41 pm ET by Biff_Loman