hey all, thanks for clicking on me, i just have a few questions about the cabinet doors that I’ll be making:
I plan to use walnut for the frames and 1/4″ walnut ply for the panels. joinery will be “shaker style” (i think that’s correct.. flat panels and tongue and groove joinery).
Here are the questions..
1. can i use 4/4 lumber without a planer? I havent bought much hardwood before and i dont know wether s3s(surfaced 3 sides) will be even thickness from board to board. I could get 1-by-lumber but it’s got the rounded corners that I’d havto rip off, plus i like the thicker look of 4/4.
2. I’ll need to buy a tongue and groove router bit or bit-set, I’d like to get the combo variety.. One bit with adjustible cutters, but my concern is that setup might be difficult, any opnions? should I bite the bullet and pay more for the set?
3. I want to allow room for the frame(the solid-wood) to breath, how much smaller than the opening should I make the panels.. (couldnt find a clear way to ask that.. if i need to clarify my question, just ask)
Thanks for taking the time
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Replies
Some answers:
1. Yes. I finish sand everything anyway but what you'll buy should be good quality and I'd worry more about straightness and flatness than the planer quality.
2. The set is nice but slower because you flipflop cutters. An individual cutter can be simply raised or lowered, depending on what process you are working on. I usually do all my tongues at one time, make some extras, and then match the grooves to the tongues. If for some reason I'm slightly out of plane, I can make the groove just a hair wider to solve the problem.
3. I don't worry about how tight the panel is to the joint in thickness. It will move if it wants to, you can't stop it. The trouble is if it's really tight and your frame joints are not strong, it can break them out. Just make sure to leave the panels shy of the opening by at least an eighth of an inch in height and width. Smaller for small doors, larger for larger doors.
Edited 3/22/2005 6:06 pm ET by Mad Dog
Awsome! thank you Mad Dog! I have a question though about your #2 answer (RE: tongues and grooves):I had planned on doing all of my grooves first(both on stiles and rails), before cutting the stock to length so i wouldnt havto worry about tearout. Then cutting the stiles and rails to size, then cutting tounges on the rails.. EDIT: Could I adjust the tongue for plane like how you suggested with the groove?this is a little different then what you suggested, I wanted to eliminate as much set up as possible so there would be little room for human error. I was assuming that cutting all of the grooves (on both stiles and rails) would be easier when the stock hadnt been cut to length yet. (so only two setups, one for grooves, one for tounges)In your expirience (or if anyone else wants to chime in) would I be better served cutting to length first?______________________________________________--> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad
Edited 3/22/2005 6:37 pm ET by skyecore
If the stock is nice and straight, go ahead and run your tongues and grooves in length, use featherboards to keep everything in line. If you have to cut if first to make it straight, then keep it as long as you can.Most of the tearout on tongue and groove work would tend to get hidden, but if it seems to be a problem, you could allow some waste for it and cut it later with a mitersaw.Cut a few scrap pieces and mill them for test fit. You'll get the hang of it pretty fast. Again, if they are slightly off don't worry, your finish sanding with a random orbital disc sander will even it all out.
can i use 4/4 lumber without a planer? I havent bought much hardwood before and i dont know wether s3s(surfaced 3 sides) will be even thickness from board to board.
usually, s3s for us means front, back (wide faces) and one edge. this would mean, depending on the supplier that it could all be the same thickness, or maybe not.
usually surfaced 4/4 s3s comes through right around 3/4", not 1". it is 4/4 in the rough, before surfacing.
check with your supplier, your results may vary
carpenter in transition
i did, they said it was 15/16 which sounds great to me, i was just unsure how finely they surface it.. I actually dont care too much what the actual thickness is as long as it's consistant.EDIT: because doors will be sitting on top of face frames
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Edited 3/22/2005 6:41 pm ET by skyecore
I am guessing that 15/16" is skipped planned.That just knocks the roughness off and there will be a some unplanned areas. You really need a planner to finish it.Now I got some ash from a small mill and it was strickly rough cut. But there 4/4 stock varied from 1 1/8 to 1 1/4. After planning and also the cupps in the boards I ended up with 7/8.
"hey all, thanks for clicking on me, i just have a few questions about the cabinet doors that I'll be making:"
Hey I clicked on YOU you would not be thanking me.
"1. can i use 4/4 lumber without a planer? I havent bought much hardwood before and i dont know wether s3s(surfaced 3 sides) will be even thickness from board to board. I could get 1-by-lumber but it's got the rounded corners that I'd havto rip off, plus i like the thicker look of 4/4."
Probably, but you need to check and see what you supplier offers.
One of the places that I go sells S2 RWL by the board foot. It is surfaced to 13/16" allowing for a final cleanup pass on the planner
The also sell S4 stock in standard lenghts and widths. It is sold so much per board. I have not checked, but that might be a true 3/4". so just get it from one source and you should be OK.
"2. I'll need to buy a tongue and groove router bit or bit-set, I'd like to get the combo variety.. One bit with adjustible cutters, but my concern is that setup might be difficult, any opnions? should I bite the bullet and pay more for the set?"
The T&G sets are often for glue up and the T&G is not deep enough for what you want to do.
And most cabinet door sets have a molding profile on them so they won't work for you.
You can do this with a slot cutter for the grove and then use a rabbit bit to make the tounge (in two passes). BTW, if you go to the extras section in the FHB website they have a video of someone making a transom window this way.
You can also do the whole thing on a TS using a dado blade.
Way to go, trying your own kitchen. I'll be heading down that road in a few months myself. Same style, using wormy butternut panels in cherry and maple frames.
Your answers:
1. If you buy your lumber all in the same place, you shouldn't have much variation in thickness. Check it at the lumberyard. You may have some parts and pieces that may have some cup, bow or warp to them, and you won't be able to get it out without a jointer and planer. If you're doing your own kitchen, then you're saving thousands of dollars NOT buying ready-made cabinets. I used that as justification to buy new tools, and you can get a decent benchtop planer for well under $300.
2. Get the adjustable Amana. Expensive but infinitely adjustable.
3. 1/8" all around, and get some Spaceballs for the groove. Alternately, you can buy a tube of pure silicone caulk, cut the tip to get a 3/16" bead, and squeeze a number of long beads onto waxed paper. When they dry, snip them into 1/4" long segments, and you can use them in the groove instead of the Spaceballs (it's a small ball of rubber or something that prevents the panels from rattling in the groove).
i love cherry, i wish i could afford it. I had some left over from a small project that I made a picture frame out of for my sister. I hope you'll post some pics when your done.______________________________________________
--> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad
Built first time cabinets above my computer desk. Used Home Depot poplar and I :
1. Planed all the stock first to get it all the same thickness first. This greatly aids in assembly because there is almost no sanding required and it allows for accurate reference surfaces for the routing the T&G.
2. Let the stock sit in the assembly room for a day or so after planing to allow it to adjust.
3. Cut stock to rough length or finished length (use backer block when routing to prevent tearout) and route with T&G bit. (I used a Freud adjustable) Be sure to adjust the length of the stile pieces to allow for the tongue. Do some sample cuts with some scrap before getting into the good stuff.
4. If the doors are larger 12" or wider, you might want to consider doweling the joints along with the T&G for strength. There are some pocket type dowel jigs available, just drill the holes prior to routing.
5. If you want some doors to be glass, just route a rabbet on the backside.
Good Luck,
Tom
There might be a few options available to you that your hardwoods supplier didn't mention for fear of bombarding you with too many choices, each has advantages. There are probably other options, too, but for 4/4 there's -
"Hit and Miss" - 15/16" thick, both edges rough, inconsistant planed quality because of variations in board thickness when board was rough (but for the most part you can see the color and grain pattern (I think someone else mentioned a grade called "skip planed" which might be the same thing by another name
"S2S" - surfaced two sides to 13/16", edges rough
"S2S, straightlined" - same as S2S but one edge has been run through a straightline saw, which will be a huge help for you, will save you from having to joint one edge of each board straight before ripping it to width. In my mind, this would be well worth the extra 10 cents/board foot for the first time cabinet builder. Just the material you'll save will most likely pay for itself.Free speech leads to a free society.
Here's a sequence I have used.
1--rip the rail stock to final width +1/8"
2--crosscut your rails to exact length, allowing for the tongues
3--make your cope cuts (i.e. the tongues on the end of your rails... do this on a router table with a sliding fixture to control the workpiece)
4--rip 1/16" off the INSIDE edge of each rail piece to clean up tearout. Your rails are now final width +1/16". Mark each piece with chalk before cutting so you know which edge will be the inside.
5--rip stile material to final width +1/32" and crosscut to final length +1/8"
6--groove all pieces
7--assemble your doors. They will be 1/16" wider than final, and 1/8" longer than final
8--take them to someone with a widebelt sander to sand them to final thickness
9--using a crosscut slide on the tablesaw, trim them to exact size. If you have an edge sander you can use this instead, but I doubt you do. During the exact-sizing process you are making sure they are square... very important.
I would not assemble a door to exact size and hope that it was square, I would assemble slightly oversize and square it as the last step.
I can't thank you all enough, This project is one that I have been looking forward to but also a little stressed out about. The step by step instructions are great, I'll pick and choose what works best for me after making one or two mock-ups with scrap lumber.______________________________________________
--> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad