I’m building my own home and learning a lot along the way….
I need advice on how to hang a solid wood door (Simpson, Fir) with sidelights onto a concrete sill. What needs to go between the concrete and the door frame? And am I only able to secure the door from the top and bottom since there is no “door frame” per se?
Also, after finishing the door with 3 layers of laquer, I read somewhere to sand the final top coat with 0000 steel wool. Has anyone done this? What does this do?
Thanks for the help…
Replies
OK, what did you forget?
Do you have just the door slab and the sidelight insert? Do you have a complete jambset with threshold? Or, do you have a prehung ready to place into a rough opening and add trim? What do you mean, "No door frame, per se"?
Concrete sill? Is this a poured slab with frame construction or Conc. block?
Under the threshold you can place a sill pan. You'll also see a lot of thresholds just set in a BIG gob of caulk and then tapcon'd into the sill.
I have a prehung door, ready to set and trim. But because of the sidelights I don't think I can screw into the sides... or can I? The only part of the jamb that is accessible to screw into (without going through the finished wood along the sidelights) is above and below the swinging door. Does this make sense?
It is on a poured slab with frame construction.
Tapcon'd??
Thanks,
The Rookie
(Chic With Tools)
Hi, you will need a pack of shims, some good caulk (PL polyurethane works well) finish nails, wood putty (wax or other) to fill the nail holes, and a level (4 foot at least, six and four is better), and some good oil based primer....
Hopfully your rough opening is plumb & square, & has enough head height that you can lay a generous bead of caulk under threshold and then set the unit down on it (but prime the underside of the threshold first)....
plumb & square the unit in the RO (rough opening), using the shims to wedge it in place at the four corners (if you push one shim in from each side that wedges without twisting...)
Pre-drill nail holes at the shim locations, (use a bit smaller than the nail size), nail in but leave the nails 1/4 inch up.
If the unit feels secure, gently open & close the door to make sure it's working properly...
If it looks good, set the nails, add shims & nails at the mid points, either foam or stuff with fiberglass insulation between the sidelight jambs & the framing, and you're ready for trim.
No doubt someone else here will tell me I've left out sill pan flashing....can you post a picture...if the door's under a good roof you shouldn't need it...
Good luck....
Thanks for this.
I am setting the door right onto concrete so what do I need to put between the threshold and the concrete?
I've heard: nothing, a piece of roofing shingle, felt paper, blue foam, spray can foam.
Anybody else have an opinion on this?
My opening is pretty tight so I don't have a lot of room.
Hey Chic,You need a moisture barrier between the concrete and the sill.This is assuming that the sill is like most doors I install. They are usually an aluminum extrusion over some kind of crap, often finger-jointed pine or worse.Actually, you need a moisture barrier no matter what your sill is. Concrete is a tremendous wicker. (I'm sure there is a good play on words in that last sentence. I'm too tired)
What you put under the concrete depends on the conditions, and the type of threshold. First thing to do is to look at any instructions that came with the door. They may specify a caulking pattern for under the door (especially with an all-aluminum threshold).The surface where the threshold will mount needs to be flat, and also square with the opening (hopefully level, but definitely square). Use some sort of featherable concrete patch (or thinset) to smooth/level if necessary.If the threshold is all aluminum then generally two beads of caulk -- one on the outer edge and near the middle -- is what you need. (Resist the temptation to overcaulk.) For a threshold containing wood you need some sort of membrane to separate the wood from the concrete.Sealing under the threshold is obviously more important where rain will be able to reach the door, or where a stoop may catch rain and allow it to be blown against the door.
You can pilot drill through the sidelight jambs and fasten using finish nails, then fill the holes with a matching wood filler.
Tapcon screws are specially designed for fastening into concrete. Typically they are supplied with a masonry bit of appropriate size. You pre-drill with the masonry bit and then use a drill or impact driver to install the screws. This is a good solid fastener for thresholds.
Enjoy the ride,
WallyLignum est bonum.
Depending upon your location, you may be required to use screws at predetermined points around the jamb just to comply with code. Plan review officials and inspectors require the testing and installation data be supplied with the building plans and will go around with the data sheets in hand and count and measure each and every screw position listed.
Maybe I should start a new thread for this info....... if you are in Florida, product approval is now required for certain building components. I have a four page product approval information sheet that I must file with plan review each and every time I pull a permit. I have to list the manufacturer, product description, limitation of use, the State product approval number and a local approval number as well as have a copy of each manufacturer's printed instructions (including the complete list submitted to plan review) on the job site available to the inspector. If there are any products that I or a customer wants to use that do not have product approval at the time of plan review I must prove to the plans examiner that they are code compliant before I can get an inspection on the job. Any changes made in mid-stream and I have to go through plan review again.
Something as simple as a site-built exterior door, with individual components like off the shelf or custom jambs and threshold and what ever door is chosen or built, including the hinges and the lockset, will all have to be either independently tested or signed off by an engineer or architect. (And Plan Review).
HOLY MACKERAL!I love Kentucky.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I'll just do it>
thanks for the lesson, question, when you buff with wool after sanding, it that also always with grain?
Whenever possible, yes. And you'll find it real easy for your hand to take an arching path rather than staying directly in line, too. But in-line isn't always practical and is sometimes impossible.Let's say your door has raised panels in it. It won't be practical to rubout with the grain at the profiled raise in these panels on two out of the four raised sides. So, cross grain it is.Also, be especially careful at your outside corners as you sand and rub out. That's where it will be extra easy to go thru your finish as the finish will likley be thinnest there and the pressure you apply to your SP or wool (particularly if it's under your finger tips and you're bearing on it).........can cut thru a bit faster than you think. Do the deed, but use caution in these areas and you'll be fine. The above is one of the reasons why it's important to roll any sharp outside edges a bit with some sandpaper before you finish. The sharper the edge, the harder it is to get the finish on that edge, the greater the likelihood that the edge will act as a knife and cut thru the finish when said finish dries and contracts a bit....... and the sharper the edge, the greater the odds that you rub thru when you rub-out.A little caution and you'll do fine. But I think you're going to be surprised by just how much pressure is required by your fingers on that wool .... and by your arm muscles to even out that sheen on spar varnish. Nitro lacquer goes real easy, comparatively speaking. You don't have to do the whole door at once. Work at it for a while and when you're tired.....take a break and do something else. The door won't run away. You don't want to ruin your finish at this stage of the game with scuffs and scratches. Pad the underside of the door. If you have some tall sawhorses, cover 'em with carpet (or the like) and do your work on there. If a workbench, do the same. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/3/2005 1:12 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
When I worked with Michael Dresdner, he refered to them arches as "chinese bridges"..he'd admonish the participants at our seminars about that...I still tell my Dw and other helpers.." NO chinese bridges here please"..LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I'll just do it>
Man, am I glad I LEFT FLA!DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Thank goodness I live in a county with less than 20,000 people! When you ask for an inspection, he's there the next day. When you ask for a plan change, they say "just send us a picture". When you ask for code they say, "what does the installation manual say." And also being an owner-building, he seems to go pretty easy on me. The inspections have been less intimidating than I imagined them to be.
That's how it should be. They are supposed to be working with you, with us, not agin us. They're a bit like police officers - if you work with them, they'll work with you. If not, then watch out...
Good Grief, thank the powers that be that I'm not working in Florida....code review for hanging a door, what next......
Sly, Are tapcons better than actuated gun for concrete application... just checking for future purchase.
Depends on what you plan to do. Sometimes one is better than another. You wouldn't use a powder actuated tool for finished work like the threshold mentioned in this thread. But if you were strapping out structural steel for some kind of architectural finish, the Remington or Hilti would be perfect.
Chances are you'll acquire a hammer drill or rotary hammer as they are commonly used in carpentry work, so that makes it easy to use Tapcons too. A powder actuated tool is less versatile but there are certainly times when they are the most effective solution. The Remington is inexpensive and worth a look.
WallyLignum est bonum.
3 layers(coats) of lacquer?
Nitro-cellulose(Deft maybe?).....water-borne.....or catalyzed lacquer?
If this is an exterior door.....none of the above are appropriate for an exterior side of a door......if it sees any rain or sun at all.
And other finishes won't care to bond all that well to the existing lacquer, either. You'll be stripping it soon enough, I fear, to finish with another product.
Sorry.
Edit: Rubbing out with #0000 steel wool is a procedure (amongst many other available procedures) to smooth the final surface, to rid it of little nibs (flecks of dust in finish, etc) and/or to alter the final sheen to a lower reflective level. It has nothing to do with the durability of the finish.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/2/2005 9:48 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
I used Minwax Helmsman Spar Urethane, not a laquer - I mis-spoke. I stained with Watco and sanded between each coat. It has turned out beautiful. It will be even more beautiful when it is between me and the 18" of snow that is outside!
Thanks for the clarification on the steel wool - the satin finish was a bit too shiny for my liking. I will buff it out with the 0000.
Chic With Tools
Yes, that is good to hear. Spar is a decent choice for the door.When you rub out with the #0000.......I'd advise a wet-sand with a bit of water first. 400 wet or dry grit......or even 600 if you have it around. Use a split-nose rubber block to hold the paper or a cork block if you have one of those. In-line with grain only and sand lightly. You're just after cutting down the nibs. Use your hand/fingers to hold the paper where the block won't work. Wipe dry.When you rub out with the wool.......make sure you have the door postioned such that light is glaring across the surface on the area where you're working at any particular time. If this is spar, you'll have to bear some on the wool to get a result. First thing is to unroll your pad of wool. Then tear it in half. Use those pieces separately. Change when a piece wears out and isn't producing much of a result.As you rub (hand-held here), you'll see the surface begin to dull a bit under the wool. You want to rub so that the entire surface dulls equally under the reflecting light. Some areas under the wool will want to dull sooner, but you'll continue in any given small area you're working until all is evenly dulled. Move to the next area. Is your arm tired yet? Too bad. <G> You've got a ways to go and spar is a tough rub. (Make sure this stuff has cured for at least 5 days before you do the rub-out)When you're done with the #0000, rub the surface hard and briskly with a cotton cloth to restore some luster. If that isn't quite shiny enough to suit, stick a wool or cotton bonnet in your hand-held drill and buff out with that. If that isn't shiny enough to suit......post back and we'll take a walk thru various glazing/polishing compounds you can use in conjunction with the bonnet to make the finish glossier. But I think you'll find satisfaction in one of the above for an entry door.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Was tired last night and didn't relay some info correctly.If you've never done a rubout before and go at this door with the wet or dry paper before the wool, be prepared to see something when you wipe it dry that will leave you believeing you've just ruined the finish. Your paper will have scuffed the surface, leaving it very dull in the areas where it makes contact. Not to worry.When you wool any particular area of the door, you'll actually be bringing the reflective value of those sanded areas up (polishing them), while the wooling of any previously untouched areas will lessen their reflective value. You'll continue to rub in any given area until the reflective value becomes equal. If the light is bouncing off the area and you have your head positioned right, you'll see when you've reached reflective equality. Then you buff. Then you reach for the Bengay. <G>Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Thank you so much for this lesson in door finishing! Now, rather than going at it timidly hoping that I'm doing the right thing, I'll take it a little more head on! Thanks especially for the note on waiting 5 days... in my inpatience I was ready to start buffing away today! A few more days and I will.
Lessons learned during this:
- If at all possible lay the door or whatever you are coating vertical. The door I did vertical, the sidelights I did horizontal because of the size. I was constantly fighting run marks on the sidelights, whereas the door looks perfect.
- Have a good and steady source of light so that you can eye your sanding job, your staining job, your brushing job, your buffing job. The inconsistancy in my lighting caused inconsistancys in my finish.
- Be careful and consistant with the final sanding of the wood right before the stain. The sanding will effect how it takes the stain.
- Prepare to spend a lot of time doing this. Prepare to be visually rewarded for doing so.
I'm sure some of this is elementary to most, but "If I knew then what I know now...." Still, the door came out beautiful. I will buff and hang it later this week. Then let it snow, let it snow!!
Again, thanks for the advice - you guys are great. I certainly wasn't expecting to find the help I was seeking here. But I did!
I'll post pictures when I get her hung!
The important thing here is not whether your first door finishing project came out perfect, but that you're paying attention and learning along the way.Horizontal application is the easier way to go, particularly if brushing, isn't it? <G> You're probably going to find that you can eliminate some if not all of your sins with some careful wet-sanding. Don't be afraid to keep things well wetted while you sand, afterall...... this is spar varnish and if it can't stand up to being wet for a while....what good is it?But do be careful because the wet surface will skew your view of what is happening under there, the water will help create a suction that pulls your paper tighter to the surface and it will also prevent your paper from clogging so rapidly, consequently the cutting action doesn't diminish as much as if you were going at this with dry paper. When/if in doubt, grab a towel and dry off the surface to see what's happening under there. Water is cheap. Toss some more on again and continue. If you have lap marks and such, you may well be able to carefully sand them out without going thru your finish. (Use a block under your paper on those flat areas) If you do go thru, well....toss on another coat on the whole door side and wait while it cures out a bit. Go at it again. Better to do that than hang the door if it ain't right or doesn't please you cause it's gonna hang there for quite a while. There's no problem either with grabbing the wool and rubbing out to see what you have for a result in any given area. You can always go back to the paper to try to remove the last bit of a lap mark or whatever.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Get this:
So there I was applying the third and very last coat of spar on the door (the sidelights and one side of the door are finished). This was it, after a week+ of working on this thing. I have brushed about half the door when I notice (but don't think much of it) that my spar is getting thicker. But I keep at it and finish the door. I come back in an hour later and the part where I noticed the spar thickening is now a pastey/milky white. AAAAAHHHHhhhhhhhhhh!!!
I have no idea what happened. The remainder in the can is definately goobing up, thickening. So something chemically must have happened.
The only thing I did was clean the brush the night before in paint thinner. That should not have done it. So what happened?
I just hope that after drying over night that I will be able to sand it out and coat it .... again.
Anybody got any guesses on this one?
Humidity will do that.
Didn't you say this was a satin varnish and it was too glossy to suit? That's probably the first time I've ever heard someone say that satin was too glossy for them. Ummmmmm. Did you stir the varnish and keep it well stirred while you worked?I'm betting "not" at the moment. I'm thinking that failure to stir up the stearates (that's the stuff that converts a gloss finish to a satin or semigloss one) left you applying a "gloss" finish until you have now reached the bottom of the can.......where all the stearates still are. And those white-ish powdered stearates are what you just brushed on. They would resemble exactly what you've described.If this has just happened, return to the door ASAP and take a cloth (several will be required)...... well-wetted with mineral spirits/paint thinner and wipe off everything you can. Repeat to get it all or as much as you possibly can. Then report back later tonight or tomorrow.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Doh. I bet that is exactly what it is.
Per another fine woodworker, he said do your first two coats in gloss with your final in satin. So I went through an entire can of gloss - without stirring - and was proceeding as normal with the satin. Damn. There's a rookie move for ya.
Too late for the mineral spirits. Sanding is my next option, yes?
Thanks for the help.
CWT
What makes you think it's too late for mineral spirits and removal?If it even tacky yet at all, the MS will eat into it and you can then remove it.Flood the surface and let it set if needs be. Should lossen up in a few minutes........if it's tacky at all yet.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
It will have been applyed for about 20 hours before I can get back to it. Not tonight, unfortunately...
Will the mineral spirits "eat" into the previous layers?
Damn.No, the MS won't eat into the other layers that have already set.Yup. Now you're in for a sanding to remove this layer or a strip and start all over. A wet-sanding with 320 wet/dry paper wouldn't take all that long on the flats of the door, but it's gonna be a job on the profiles and such. If you go for the wet sand......and you happen to go thru all the layers of finish to bare wood somewhere.........you'll have to allow time for the wood to dry out before you apply any more finish. You could accelerate this with a hair dryer at a safe distance. But you don't want to fry or boil the remaining finish, so put your hand down there so you can keep track of how hot the surface is getting.The advice about gloss followed by satin was good. too many coats of satin on top of one another and things get milky lookin'. Some products allow for two coats of satin, others only one to avoid this. Depends on how much stearate is added to any given product, etc.Ugh. BTDT. 90% of learning is a negative experience.......as a rule. But at least now that I'm older than dirt, I've changed that percentage a bit by reading and learning about what I'm about to attempt before I blaze away in there. <G> But you haven't done anything we all haven't done in one way or another......and more than once, too. That's why we can call ourselves "experienced". LOLI see yer profile says you're in Oregon. If that's the state, as I presume....and not Oregon, IL......I can't do you much good with hands on help. If you're being cryptic and it's Oregon,Il.....I'm about 30 miles away. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/4/2005 11:05 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
how appropriate your signiture quote is for this one.
Alright, I'm heading back up to my place. If I'm lucky, it will be tacky. I'll pull an all nighter if I have to. Its been 9 hours, do you think there is any hope?
9 hours?Dubious. Depends on product and ambient temps.Maybe. I wouldn't rule it out totally. Spar is slow setting stuff, particularly if the temps are 55F and under.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Wish me luck.
Can we retitled this discussion, "Dumb Rookie Mistake"?
Nope Oregon state is it. Guess I'm going to have to deal with this one myself.
Thanks for getting me this far at least.
I'll keep you posted.
CWT
You can try gently using some #0000 steel wool along with the MS to aid in removal if you have some around. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=108Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Thank you for that link. O, just think how much wiser and smarter I will be after all of this...
Next discussion line: "Wood stripping 101"
Yep, she ain't pretty.
Damn.
Can I add to my list of "things learned"? Like a martini - stirred, not shaken.
Since its 20 degrees out, I'm going to hang the door anyways, and then pop it off when it warms up a bit. Hey, on the bright side, one side of it looks great!
Thanks for the help.
CWT,
Sometimes we add a treated 1x under the Rough opening before we install. If the door has a small Threshold (in height) and the door is installed, then you add a thick finish floor (3/4 hardwood / thick tile) . Then when it comes time for the homeowner to place their favorite rug to wipe feet on, the bottom of the door drags on the said throw rug!