Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Oct 23, 1999 04:21am | #1

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   Use conventional traps. Why do you want a sewer vent? Do you really mean a cleanout? If so it is plugged with a threaded plug until needed. Use RV or some other non-toxic antifreeze when you winterize.

   Even if codes do not apply use them as an intelligent base for actual construction. They have evolved over a good many years so should only be disregarded if you know enough about the subject to come up with a better answer.

   Also, you may want to ask your insurance company if they will require an inspection before they insure the property. If so, you willneed toknow what standards they will use and how hard nosed the inspector will be. Some automatically put DIY work in the fail category while the more intelligent look at the work, not the worker.

1. 
   Guest_ | Oct 23, 1999 08:48am | #2

   *Freezing shouldn't hurt the traps since they are open at both ends with plenty of room for expansion, unlike a water line that is completely filled with water and closed. But, then again what do I know about freezing?

1. 
   Guest_ | Oct 23, 1999 09:18am | #3

   *Freezing will deffinately break open the traps; but it's no big deal to pour a cup or two of RV antifreeze (the pink stuff) in each trap and toilet before you turn off the heat.Jerry

1. 
   Guest_ | Oct 23, 1999 06:12pm | #4

   *Now that I'm starting to understand the plumbing code (sorta), I agree with heatstroke Mike. Get a copy of the reqs., and/or Kardon's "CodeCheck" as a primer and follow it. The traps stop not just stink but also flammable and poisonous gases.Vents are simply supposed to above your head or window. The methane and such is warm and rises I guess. I don't know about septic tank design; venting may help your drains drain, though. Tanks are susceptible to poisoning though -- people here have suggested vegetable oil or trap primers for winterization.

1. 
   Guest_ | Oct 23, 1999 09:01pm | #5

   *OK, Mr. Baggins, here's the scoop from a WI licenced plumber. The WI plumbing code is a code unto itself. WI doesn't use any of the national plumbing codes - sometimes they match, sometimes they don't, although what I will follow with is pretty much the same throughout the country.ALL fixtures have to have their own traps. The exceptions are fixtures that are approved with their own internal traps, such as toilets and some water fountains.ALL fixtures have to be properly connected to a system of vents that will adequately keep the traps from siphoning. Just as you have to properly size the drain piping, you also have to properly size the vent piping.Vents normally terminate through the roof. If the roof is just a covering for the house for weather protection, the pipe has to extend at least 8 inches above the roof. If you have a flat roof and are using it for any human occupancy (partying, etc) the vent pipe has to extend at least 7 feet above the roof. The vent has to be located at least 10 feet from an air intake, 5 feet from a power exhaust vent. No vent shall be located near a roof scuttle, door or openable window unless it terminates at least 10 feet horizontally or 2 feet above the scuttle, door or window.With regard to keeping the traps from freezing, use RV anti-freeze. It will not harm your septic system as automotive anti-freeze will. Pour some in each trap, in the toilet bowl and also in the remaining water left in the toilet tank.Remember that your water supply piping also has to be properly sized to meet the plumbing code. When I installed plumbing in northern WI cabins, I always installed the water piping so it would drain back by gravity or if that wasn't possible included some kind of fitting with a removable plug in all the low spots so the system could be drained. There are guys "up North" that make it a business to winterize cabins and cottages. Many of them have fittings they can install on the water system to use compressed air to blow out all the water. One guy I know actually pumps the water piping full of RV anti-freeze. It's non-toxic and will flush right out of the system when you turn the water on in the spring. If you do your own winterization, be sure to get all the water out of the piping, drain the water heater, the pump tank and anything else in the potable water system that can be drained.The pertinent portion of the plumbing code for drains, vents and water piping is called Comm 82 and I believe it is available on line. If you have trouble figuring out how to install the plumbing to meet the code, it will be well worth you while to hire a WI licensed plumber to either do the entire installation or to plan the system and supervise your work.One other thing - WI law says that the only persons who can legally do plumbing in the state are WI licensed plumbers and homeowners who are doing plumbing on their primary residence while they are living there. Technically, your summer home is not your primary residence, so you cannot legally do your own plumbing. Usually, if you make every effort to do the job right, this technicality is not generally enforced. Click here to find the WI plumbing code.

2. 
   Bill_Rose | Oct 24, 1999 12:20am | #6

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   The risk of breaking the traps is minute, as Mike Mahan stated above. Try making up a trap and putting it in the freezer. It should be fine. Figure the chances are 1 in 10000 or so of rupturing the trap (a wild guess). But with any risk, however minute, I wouldn't argue with someone using antifreeze. For info on how pipes burst see http://www.ibhs.org/documents/pdf/freezing.pdf.

3. 
   Guest_ | Oct 24, 1999 01:53am | #7

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   Came across an interesting type of vent in New Zealand once. It had a spring loaded flap on top, ( in fact it didn't penotrate the roof, but stayed in the roof cavity ) that allowed it to suck air when needed, but would then close off to prevent escape of gas.

1. 
   Guest_ | Oct 24, 1999 02:15am | #8

   *Mark -Here in the states they're called a Studor vent or an Auto-vent. Some jurisdictions allow them, some don't. The problem is that after they've been in service for a while, there is a concern that they will stick in the open position and allow sewer gas to enter the building.Some inspectors will allow them, especially on retro-fits where it's nigh unto impossible to install a real vent without major reconstruction. I've seen them used in old houses with no vents on the drains where they're a lot better than having no vent at all.

1. 
   Guest_ | Oct 24, 1999 08:02am | #9

   *Well, glad to know the WI plumber agrees with someone who isn't a, is it Badger? Really odd that some government would draw such a fine line between someone's primary and secondary residences. Wonder why that is?I'm still not sure Mr. Baggins is referring to a vent rather than a cleanout. But now he has the info whichever he meant.So, are we talking to ourselves or has this been helpful Mr. Baggins?

1. 
   Guest_ | Oct 24, 1999 08:24am | #10

   *B. Baggins....hmmmm...I'll bet you get a lot of cracks about Hobbits and such.Rich Beckman

1. 
   Guest_ | Oct 24, 1999 08:54am | #11

   *Just speaking from my experience. I had a summer home in the PA mountains and have replaced ice damaged traps.Jerry

2. 
   Guest_ | Oct 25, 1999 07:10am | #12

   *I had a summer place in upper NH that had electric heat. I would shut it completely down in the winter whenever I left. Put 1 1/2 cups of RV type antifreeze in all the traps, would empty the bowl of the toilet and refill with 2 cups of RV antifreeze. Never had a problem with freezing, staining, and it did not inhibit the natural action of the septic tank. I guess my 2 cents would be, use standard plumbing (traps, vents, stacks. ), and winterize them. Less hassle, and you'll know they'll work

3. 
   Guest_ | Oct 25, 1999 08:48am | #13

   *I have a small cabin in the Ozarks. Does not get as cold there as Wisconsin but freezing pipes can be a problem. I have used windshield washer fluid in my traps and the toilet bowel for five wnters now without a problem. Less than one gallon does the entire place. I drain all of the supply lines and remove the stems from all of the cut off valves at the fixtures. I also "bail out" the toilet bowel. I have a well and pump. I have one ball valve that drains the pressure tank and nearby supply lines. The only problem I have had is a freeze cracked spray head at the kitchen sink. I unscrew the head now and blow it out as part of my winterizing routine. I agree with the other posters. There is no need to drain your traps if you use an appropriate anti-freeze in them.

4. 
   Guest_ | Oct 25, 1999 09:50am | #14

   *I still recommend RV antifreeze in unused plumbing systems. Freezing, for sure. The other big reason is evaporation. Even if the water in a trap doesn't freeze, over time it may evaporate. I've seen (and smelled) it first-hand. Since then I've used A/F in my Wisco place (Big Cedar Lake, near West Bend) if I'm gone for long periods of time, even in the summer.Many of the old-heads do what Andrew wrote in #4...they use vegetable oil. If it's new construction, certainly consider installing a nipple in the supply lines to blow them out when needed as allaround suggested. Easy to do.

4. 
   B._Baggins | Oct 25, 1999 09:55am | #15

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   I'm building a summer home in northern Wisconsin. Almost entirely a DIY project. Two related problems on my mind. 1) Can I avoid septic tank odors from a vent pipe that wants to come up near a dormer window? 2) Can I avoid having to drain 6 traps every winter when we close up and go south?
   Is it possible to solve both problems with a single trap in my basement hanging drain just before it exits the foundation wall? Or with a buried trap between the wall and septic tank? Two toilets will empty into this line, with all other drainage upstream--kitchen, washer, showers, etc.
   Or, I could fill all traps with anti-freeze, but I'm not wild about running it into my septic system.
   A final note: no building codes in this rural county.