Drain problem, can I get fined for this?
I may or may not be in a lot of hot water here. I am wondering if I can even be arrested, or fined by State officials for what I did. Details are long, so here they are below. I want opinions if you have any on whether or not I did do something illegal or not.
Situation. I built an addition for a woman, it was to be a laundry room. Her present Washer was in the bathroom taking up space. It was draining into her sewer line which is at this point in time a septic tank. While plumbing the laundry room we discovered we could not get the proper fall to get to her House Drain…it was all the way on the far side of the house. However, we then saw that the kitchen sink drain was draining into a line that went straight down into the ground. If we plumbed the washer drain to this we could get the proper fall. We next investigated where did this drain go….we looked high and low, could not find a tank or anything. We assumed, due to the age of the house, that it probably just dumped into a drywell, whereabouts unknown. The HO said the drain was like that for years, no issue. The man of the house died 2yrs ago, he knew where the drain ended up, the widow did not. So we saw evidence where a washer was hooked up to this drain before and reasoned that it worked before as a washer drain for years (per the HO), so all we’re doing is basically draining a washer back into that line again and all should be well.
Job completed, washer has been draining fine for months, all is well.
Then the HO wants us to build a deck. In the process of clearning shrubbery for the deck we discovered a lid buried several inches below ground. Lifting it revealed a grease pit where, you guessed it, the washer water and kitchen sink water was dumping into. So what to do…..the deck plan called for the deck to be built overtop this location, the lid would become inaccessible after this….so we couldn’t build the deck overtop this because this pit would need to be cleaned from time to time. On top of that there was a municipal sewer project going in to which the HO had to hook up to later on in the Summer or early Fall.
We advised the homeowner that we couldn’t build the deck until after she had her public sewer hookup completed and that she needed to make as part of that project the rerouting of the pit drain. The HO, upon hearing this, said she’d talk to the excavator whom she already contracted with to do her hookup later when she got her hookup notice. Her excavator said he’d do the rerouting job for an additional $500. No problem, deck project was on hold.
HO then thinks about and calls us back and says it sure would be nice to not have to wait for her deck because no one knew the timeframe she’d receive her hookup notice and she wanted a deck for the Summer. She asked us if we’d do the rerouting now so that we could proceed with the deck construction. We agreed to do it for the same price, $500.
After reviewing the situation it was decided that the pit drain needed to be rerouted over to the septic tank. We surmised the drain needed to only be 2″ since the combined total DFUs was 2, and that a small hole in the septic tanks top to dump the drain into would be sufficient as a temporary fix knowing the sewer hookup would happen in a few months. This in effect would cause the kitchen sink and Washer water to drain into the septic tank, as it should, and then later when her hookup contractor came to do his job all he would have to do would be to merely plumb this rerouted drain into the new 4″ drain that will connect to the public sewer line. This entire 2″ drain line would be run underground of course. The septic tank is about 30 feet from the pit, so we trenched and plumbed it with 2″ PVC, sloped it right, poked a hole in the septic tank, covered her up and built her deck.
Now the problem…….her hookup contractor is going to start the job in 2 weeks because he has an “in” at the township and knows the woman will get her hookup notice in the next few days. The HO has told him in the past that as soon as she gets her hookup notice she wants it done right away. So he contacts her last night and refers to this rerouting of the drain she needs done and she told him “it’s already been done so we could build our deck.” He starts asking all these questions, did I get a permit, did I have it inspected, blah blah blah. I did not get a permit for this drain rerouting because I considered it a “repair,” merely rerouting the drain to where it shoiuld’ve been routed all these years in the first place. In my view I was taking an existing situation and making it better or at best, merely duplicating the existing situation, only causing it drain where it was supposed to drain.
This contractor contacts me today and as soon as I said I did not have it inspected the first words out of his mouth are “I’m going to fix your error, you don’t know what you’re doing, I’ll be suing you in court and I’m informing DEP that you’re not a licensed plumber who is doing plumbing work in the state to the extent that you are not properly handling wastewater when you do your plumbing, and DEP will be coming at you to fine you all kinds of fines…..” He never was diplomatic, he was immediately on my case, he said he’ll tear apart the deck and remove the 2″ line and install a 4″ PVC line as required by code. He said that the code says ANY drain line that is buried must be a minimum of 4″ PVC, and that a 2″ that I ran is considered illegal to the code. He said I ran an illegal line that he refuses to plumb to and wouldnt’ be allowed to plumb to anyways because it would not pass inspection. He further said I was required to pump the grease pit and fill it and that I will be receiving DEP fines for failing to do so, building a deck over it making it inaccessible as I did, preventing the pit to be properly handled. He wanted to know the name of my Company, and my insurance information and said he will be seeing me in court to collect all the bills he is going to be putting down my throat for my “illegal” activity and for having to rebuild the deck that he has to “destroy” as he put it to fix the problem.
Well gee, if that wasn’t nice. I refused to talk to him anymore because all he was doing was talking about suing me. I refused to give him my name, insurance, etc, said he can sue me for that info.
I later called the township, I spoke to the building codes officer. He said the guy is an a-hole, says that what I did by buring a 2″ line is fine and confirmed my 2 DFU calc was correct. He said there should be no problem. he said the only thing I did wrong was build the deck without a zoning permit at a cost of $30, told me to stop in and get it taken care of and not to worry, that the guy is prob PO’d for loosing some of the work.
I later called the man back as a courtesy and explained I talked to the township and was told I committed no violations. He said I did not talk to the correct people, asked if I talked to the Sewer Enforcement officer, I said no, I spoke to the Codes officer. He said that was the wrong person. He said that HE got a call FROM the township regarding MY call to them about this issue and said that the township told him that I was in full violation of the Code here and that my line is illegal and he would not be allowed to plumb it into the sewer line. So according to him the township called him behind my back aftger telling me I was ok, and told him I’m not ok. He assured me that in the next two days the township would be inspecting what I did to confirm I committed an illegal act, and that in the next few days some “very important people are going to be at yoiur front door to and you arent’ going to be happy by the time they’re done with you.” I said fine, I rested on the fact I know what the township told me which he persisted in saying was wrong.
I said I can take up some deck boards and access the pit lid, pump the pit and fill it, put the deck boards back, and satisfy the DEP requirement. I said I didn’t think DEP considered a grease pit a septic tank, and a deck built over it seems to make filling immaterial. All he did was come back and say “you’l be sorry you ran that line.” Then he said he knows my name and address and phone number, that the township provided that information to him. Said he is considered one of the biggest excavation contractors in the area (I Never heard of him) and that he’s “in” with the township and they’re totally siding with him. I asked him to tell me my name, my address and phone. He wouldn’t repeat it back to me, said not to worry, he knows what it is and in due time he’ll prove to me he knows when the “important” people come to visit me.
So long story….anyone care to give a take? By the way, in PA not all townships require you to be a licensed plumber. I am not licensed, I’ve done a number of plumbing calculations, and passed inspections many times with several inspectors in varying townships. I do not do plumbing where you must be licensed except for repairs in such areas where no inspections are required.
Edited 7/24/2006 6:57 pm ET by WillieWonka
Replies
Get the permit for the deck.
Do not call the sewer mouth again.
If he ever calls you, hang up.
If you ever hear from anyone else what he's saying, sue him.
Edited 7/24/2006 6:56 pm by SamT
Right, the Codes officer was extremely nice to me, said he's not out to get anyone, said I needed the zone permit and understood why I didn't know I needed it and said just get it and all would be fine. They just want the record the deck exists for the house.
Thanks...I'll see if anyone else feels different. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
I'm sorry, but I had to laugh reading your message. I work for the health department, and I've heard almost the same story (in the form of a confession) several times over the last 20 years. But it still surprises me that people think we're going arrest them (we don't have that authority) or take them to court (only if they refuse to make corrections). My response is "come into the office, get a permit and pay the fee, we'll take a look at what you've done and see what you need to do to fix it." I'd be happy that you went to all the trouble to get it into the septic tank where it is supposed to be.
On the other hand, knocking a hole in the top of the tank for the 2" pipe probably won't fly, since you are by-passing the inlet baffle of the tank, and that could cause some problems. Filling the "grease pit" might be required by code in PA, but that may depend on the volume. The main reason for filling a septic tank is to prevent it from collapsing in the future, after everyone has forgotten that it exists, as well as preventing someone from improperly reconnecting.
You might want to contact the sewage enforcement folks. They typically have operate completely independently of the building code staff, and you may need a permit from them.
And it's been my experience that the contractors who most often brag about having an "in" with building officials and health department officials, and who complain the most about other people's work have reputations among officials for being PIA's.
I'd be interested in hearing the rest of the story. That is, what happens next.
I'll gladly give you an update, I would expect a major update in the next day or two if what this guy is saying holds any water at all.
The 2" hole I poked into the tank is actually on the concrete riser that sits atop the tank and holds the cleanout lid. The tank is about 8 feet into the grouind (top of it) and the riser brings the lid to about 12" below the ground where it was covered by the lawn. The hole was poked just above the joint where the riser meets the tank, oh about 8 or 10" above. The hole was likewise sealed with putty to make it "watertight" in the interim time. Although, it prob didn't matter much anyways because we discovered her septic tank was actually CRACKED. it was leaking water everywhere. When we trenched we kept wondering where all the water was coming from. We eventually found out why.
The township claims they don't even know the name of this man when I told them who it was. Go figure. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Well the scoop is, I spoke to the sewer enforcement officer directly this morning. The officer said he doesn't know who this guy is, never heard of him, and he can't have an "in" with the township. He also said what I did was no problem, and also that DEP would never get involved. he also said the township would never sue me even I did so something wrong, they'd want me to fix it, that's all. he further said he would like me to pump the pit and fill with stone regardless, I talked to the HO about it and the HO said no prob, they'll pick up the additional cost.
So "sewer mouth" as some have called him here is truly that, spewing crap from his mouth that ain't true.
See my next post titled "Can HO break this contract" for the next saga here. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Wow - what a story! Glad to hear it is working out.
With advance apologies to all of the courteous and right-minded public officials who inspect work and enforce codes for our safety . . . . sounds like this loser will be out of business soon and applying for the inspector job at a small town near you! THat or maybe just a position on the local variance committee. He has some un-satisfied power hunger that needs an outlet.
One concern that came to mind in all of this is with the widow. Did the sewer mouth guy bully her, too? He may have her so scared she can't see straight. Invite him back over while you and a member of the local constabulary are there so he can correct (for her) his previous mis-statements.
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Give this clown my phone number. Tell him I'm your PR guy. :)
Even if what you've done is totally illegal (and I don't think it is at all) he still has no grounds to sue you. The worst he could do would be to report you to the town officials if in fact you've violated some code.
Like everyone else said, go smile and nod at everybody in the town hall. Get your permits, pay your fees or fines, make it right and clean up your own backyard.
When this yahoo calls again, refer him to your lawyer for all future contact.
If this nice old lady (your other thread on the topic) truly doesn't want this guy to do any work for her. Tell her to call and cancel the contract. Better yet, tell her to cancel the contract in writing, via certified mail. If this guy persists and shows up to do the work anyway, tell her to call the cops for trespassing. They'll probably pistol whip the jerk for bullying an old lady if it came to that.
My experience with guys that talk the biggest game, are the loudest guy in the crowd, drop the most names, and make the most threats..... have absolutely nothing in the tank to back any of it up. All bark, no bite. A .357 firing blanks. I'd bet one call from your lawyer would send this guy whimpering away with his tail between his legs never to be heard from again.
He's obviously a bully. He's trying to bully the old lady. Now he's trying to bully you. Calm down and think rationally. Do the next right thing by remedying the situation with the town, and you'll be fine.View Image
wonder if this dude is going to try and start work at this lady'd house before the town sends their notice, cause "he knows it's coming"?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
This guy sounds like a real winner, huh?View Image
oh, yahope he doesn't bambosal the old lady.BTW it's a beautiful day and you're on BT?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
Waiting for the roofers to finish up so I can demo the front porch underneath them. I'm winding down on one job and gearing up for the next.... got a little down time to enjoy. Gonna go play in the yard soon.View Image
"Gonna go play in the yard soon."good for youscratch the dog's ears for me.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
Thanks, Diesel, I appreciate the support. The woman is speaking with an atty to find out how to cancel the contract. She's a VERY nice woman. she assured us if she knew we would do the sewer work she'd have given the work to us. She's been nothing but ecstatic about our other work we've done for her. I celebrate my first years relationship with her next month where I startd doing jobs for her. It's the kind of relationship that makes working for others enjoyable.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Cool. If all of what you're saying is fairly accurate, I really don't think you have anything to lose sleep over. I've been on your end of a conversation like that before though. First reaction is to panic and you get that rotten feeling in your gut. It can be quite unsettling. When I calmed down and looked at the situation rationally, I knew that I had done no wrong and the other party was just posturing and trying to get something for nothing.
I refered them to my attorney for all future contact and never heard from them again. Until they called and asked if I'd be interested in doing more work for them about six months later?!?!
I really do just think that you've simply crossed paths with a scumbag bully who is pizzed that a third party may have just gotten in the way of his robbing of a nice old lady.View Image
See my update in the other thread about breaking the contract. You're gonna love what I foundout tonight.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Great. Glad it worked out so easily--as it should have.
Now, here's hoping that the HO can jettison the bully to whom she mistakenly made a commitment. Maybe his threatening behavior will be leverage, if she needs it.
And, hmmmm, PIA bully+septic tank to be abandoned and filled=??
Just joking!! Now I've gotta hope nothing really happens to the jerk.
> And, hmmmm, PIA bully+septic tank to be abandoned and filled=??
Alas, that's a soils engineering problem. They want you to fill with gravel because it won't compress. Organic matter shrinks as it rots away, leaving a slight depression on the surface. IIRC, this was discussed in a Jimmy Hoffa thread. ;-)
-- J.S.
LOL
"I later called the township, I spoke to the building codes officer. He said the guy is an a-hole,"
I agree.
What is HE going to sue you about.
Now, I know nothing about the codes on external sewer connections nor anything about how Pa or that township works.
But in general I think that there intent to get things done right. And even if you have done something actionable, from what you said that the intent was to improve an existing sitsuation and you did that in a reasonable matter.
What you did not do was not reckless, for example running a discharge a few ft from a well or similar.
As you saw with the zoning permit, that if there is a problem there aim to get the problem solved and rather than punishing people to use as examples.
Thank you, I appreciate your take on this. The Codes officer was very reasonable on this. Dare I say he was probably the nicest one I've dealt with, very flexible, and just wanting tomake sure the bases got covered.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Sounds like Mr Potty-mouth is upset cuz you took the $500 he was going to get from the old woman while he was supposed to be doing county sewer work. I would not call him back. And if he calls again, tell him you have talked with an attorney and you have been advised to sue him for slander or mental anguish or whatever, and lost productivity, and then tell him you're not going to sue unless he calls back again or starts more trouble.
And I think you need to be at the permit office first thing in the morning to fill out any and every piece of paper they want, and do it with a smile.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Actually the officer ASKED me " could you swing by this week to do the paperwork, if not then we'd appreciate it if we could at least have it next week." That's how reasonable he was being to me. I had already decided to do it tomorrow no matter what.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Mr A-Hole doesn't have any grounds to sue you. I would think the path for a law suit (if there is a path at all) would be Mr A-Hole doing the work & charging to the HO. Then the HO sueing you for what Mr A-Hole charged him for "fixing" what you did but the HO knew full well that what you were doing, right? Therfore no court issues.
Seems to me that the louder someone talks and brags, the less substance there is to what they're saying.
Sucks that he rattled your cage though.
best response i have for "I'll sue you" is.... "get in line...seems i'm in court everyday anyway and happen to like it"
which for the record ain't true... but when you make it sound like it's something you enjoy people get no satisfaction from it...
p
I agree with the others. He has to have standing to sue you, meaning you caused HIM some damage which needs to be corrected which as far as I can tell you didn't, so he has no standing. If what you did caused the HO some damage then SHE COULD sue you, but it sounds like no damage was caused and and the a suit will never happen. The HO is the only person who could ever have standing in this case.
As it is, guys who kick up a lot of dust about lawsuits have no experience with them. They claim that all this bad stuff will happen to you in the next week, but for a lawsuit on a matter like this to proceed (if he had standing) it takes a lot of bad blood, lawyers sending letters to each other, and most of all a lot of time like six months to a year. Call his bluff, ask him to give you his lawyer's name so your lawyer can correspond with them, ask him to sue you and to call the Sewer Department, let him waste his time and money on something that will never happen in the end, I bet he doesn't even have a lawyer.
Speaking of which, it sounds like you too don't have a lawyer, I know that most people are not fans of lawyers but having one that can handle legal issues and give advice from time to time saves a lot of headaches in the end. I have one I pay $600 a year and that covers for him to draft a couple letters, glance at the occasional contract and give me advice over lunch every couple months, anything more and I open my wallet but I have never had to do that. I think last year he saved me around 3 to 4 grand by helping me avoid a bad contract issue and sending 2 letters to clients who were yanking me around about paying for some work in a timely fashion. So he paid for himself and then some. I think every small business owner out there who thinks that they don't need a lawyer on retainer or at least on a bill per service basis is fooling themselves.
Good luck with this bully, call his bluff, kick him in the j^nk and drag him around the playground for threatening you.
Day
I do have an atty who would represent me. However, most people who know me know that I'm pretty civil and like to work things out. When attys get involved you all of a sudden loose the personalities involved to agree on things. I only go to an atty when it's pretty obvious that I actually need him. So I'm with you, it's just that I try to limit the use of one, that's all.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
I'm not a plumber and I certainly have no idea what that town's codes are, but the one thing I can think of that might be a little bit wrong is that a number of places now want 3" drains for horizontal runs that include a washing machine.
I had to completly re-design our bath and laundry because of this. Of course that was only the fifth or sixth time anyway, so what the heck!
Some guys see contracting as a way to make useful things, and improve their communities. Others dream of being pirates, act like little Hitlers, and seem to think their role is to pillage and burn!
Yes, it is true that work improperly done can make for extra work tomorrow. DIY attempts, and "hack" contractors do make a real contribution to my bottom line.
You main mistake - learn this for next time- was in not sticking to your guns, and BS-ing in something to accommodate the CUSStomer. Don't do something like that unless you are really sure it's done correctly. You might even sub the work out to a specialist....
An "in with city hall?" Yea, right. As the Nuns in Catholic school used to say, "Empty barrels make the most noise." It would have been proper for this guy to ask for the details of what you did- but he went far beyond.
His line of questioning seems to have been more directed toward 'what excuses can I find to run up the cost of my work?' He was laying the groundwork for charging her for re-doing all your work.
Now, that in turn could easily lead to her suing you, to cover the repairs to your improper work. The legal term for this is: "A big mess."
You can be certain the CUSStomer will never understand that it was THEIR impatience and whining that set the stage for this mess. Some of the most one-sided, least reasonable, sharks out there present themselves as "little old ladies."