So i’ve gone through the archives and the consensus seems to be that refinishing a floor with an 8″ rental drum sander is very difficult.so heres the deal…
The HO on a remodel we have been working on wants me to refinish the fir floors in a 24×14 room (nice open rectangle, no short runs)..) I am an experienced carpenter who wants to continue to learn new things. That being said I sure don’t want to f-up his floors. I know i could rent an orbital that is slower (and may not do as good a job?).
the question is…..just how difficult is it to operate the drum? If im real careful and alert can it be done? Of course the safest thing to do is call my floor guy…but especially in this economy I like to keep as much as possible in house.. Thanks for any input.
Replies
call in the sub, mark up the sub's price.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Do not attempt this.
Edit: I've tried it.
Edited 2/11/2009 7:48 pm ET by Biff_Loman
You are gonna lose your azzzzzzzz & a customer would be my guess.
As jeff sez, sub it & mark it up.
You didn't ask about the refinishing, you know how to do that part of it, or is that gonna be a learning experience too?
Joe H
We've got the new finish covered. I use OSMO hard wax. Easy to apply, easy to patch scratches in the future, low toxicity, etc. Thanks for your candid 2 cents!!
I was gonna put in my first post "You know how fast a belt sander takes a fingernail"
Keep that in mind if you can't get an orbital, you can dig a trench in a heartbeat with one of those big drums.
Andy Engel did a road test on the orbitals a few years back in FHB, looked pretty foolproof, belt not so forgiving for a novice.
Screwing up a customers floor is one of those hard to escape situations.
Joe H
PS, it it real hardwood or engineered flooring?
Solid Old growth VG fir. No big deal if i screw that up right?! I'll just overlay some pergo with a picture of fir and the HO will never notice....right??OK....I called my sub...he'll be there tomorrow at noon..i'll watch and learn
Looking back at the number of things I screwed up on the first try, someone else's floor wasn't one of them.
sometimes it's better to let that opportunity go by than to loose your #### finding out it's harder than it looks.
Joe H
>>i'll watch and learn<<That there is a good plan. About twenty years ago I tried it myself, having never seen it done at all. For two days I dragged the thing across a southern yellow pine floor. When I was done it looked like a pond with a 30 mile-an-hour wind blowing across it! And I had a backache for a week.First time I saw a pro doing it I smacked myself in the forehead. I had been pulling, against the spin of the sander, backwards across the floor! (You are supposed to let it walk you down the floor under it's own rotational pull). The next one I did, was perfectly fine. I've never understood why people say it's hard. It's boring as all get-out, but not hard, and if you've got a small back room to practice on or some such, I don't see why someone who has a clue about using any other sander would have too much difficulty with it. As some one else said, the key is the thing has to be in motion when you set down, and in motion when you pick it up, and moving at a constant speed in between touching it to the floor and lifting it off. Slow down or stop for an instant an you have a gouge. Once you understand that, it's just matter of concentrating...and being really really bored for the next 18 hours.I don't use the commercial edgers though. Just my 6" Festool. The commercial ones can grind a ton of floor away in the blink of an eye, and leave a bunch of swirlies while doing so...I've used the big square orbitals on pine, but it would take a long time on hardwood. HD here rents the u-sand. Maybe I'll try that next time.Steve
Edited 2/12/2009 8:04 am by mmoogie
There's a huge difference in sanders. Take note of what your sub uses.A buddy and I did a floor with a cheap rental drum sander. Looked good until the finish went on and then very subtle chatter marks showed up. Pointed it out to the customer and she thought there was no problem, but it bothered us. Wouldn't let us redo it.My friend did his floor and found a belt sander. Big heavy machine with better control. He said it was a night and day difference.
Unless the floor is really in bad shape--gouged up and so on--and all you really need to do is sand the old finish and refinish, it seems to me that a drum sander is more than you need. One of the rental orbital sanders with screens would be just fine.
I think you could probably figure out the sander--like on your third floor.
I do lots of different work, but sanding and refinishing a floor is just such a dusty, hard, pain in the A$$ that I just don't do that anymore...
I'm with those guys.
Bring somebody else in.
If you HAVE to do it yourself, then the trick to the drum is never be stationary. Always be moving forward or back before you let the drum to the floor. Some nicer rental units have a lever that makes that easy. Most are put to the floor just by moving the handle.
Be careful how aggressive you start. If you need to, you can go at a slight diagonal to 'flatten' the floor. Get a book and read on...
Good luck,
Pat
1st time out......as with you, I was an experienced framer...plus finish carpenter.....wanted to do my own floors....was going to rent a drum sander but had difficulty in my area finding one available but HD had several orbitals so I went that route.
The orbital will also do your edging so that saves a second rental as you will generally need an edger along with a drum unit. Simply remove your quarter round and it'll run right up close.
I had just put my floors down....australian yellow knotty pine so I was working with new uneven flooring. Once finished I've never seen a more professional job and it couldn't have been any easier......more trouble than typing this message but fairly easy for a construction job....the absolute hardest part of the job was getting that heavy thing off the truck and in the door. Should of seen me get it up the stairs to the second floor....whewww
I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.....word has it that these units handle dust much better than a drum sander too....the vacuum intake is in the middle of the 4 pads so dust is drawn "in and up". Sanded approx. 2600 sq ft of this stuff. When finished I used a wet vac with a drywall filter to clean up.....didn't even fill the bag.
I think this would be a major advantage when doing a remodel.....I take it they're living there while you refinish.....of course as always thoroughly seal up the place from the rest of the house or you'll live to regret it.
Have fun stretching the buck......I rented mine on a Saturday at 7 am.....20 min. to the house.....sanded, ate a quick sandwich, sanded, ate another quick sandwich, sanded, slept 20 min. sanded, drove back to HD and returned it at 8 am Sunday morning when they opened......one day rental for 2600 sq. ft.
Pedro a Muley cheap floor finisher
Good post.
I tried a drum sander on my rental house and really gouged up the oak floor. I sub out all of my sanding jobs these days.
OB
Sounds like you used a U-Sand...
FH had a brief feature a few issues back that highlighted this particular model - got 4 oscillating heads that works like 4 hand-held orbitals all attached together. More or less self-leveling (supposedly), relatively easy to control and can get close, eliminating the need for an edger. Been trying to track one down for finishing my floors here in So Cal, but they're a bugger to find. Found a place that'll rent 'em out for $80 a day...
I've got about the same amount of brazilian walnut - just a scooch harder than pine. Not too many height variances but it's the same thing: newly installed 3/4" x 5" plank. I heard unanimous feedback that if you don't know what you're doing, then the U-Sand is the way to go...
It might sound like I work for the company but I don't! Just heard lots of horror stories about the drums - best left in the hands of experience...
Just my 2c...
Yep, 4 - 6" random orbit pads on a schtick.
I had one spot that was a good bit high and had to cut it down.....I had bought a pack of 36 grit....took about 15 minutes on that stretch.....much like a chainsaw but you're right....it leveled itself out, then I simply went back to my regular series of grit until it was flawless and slick. Been in the house 2 1/2 years and not a single problem.
Hey, with the economy as it is HD might ship you one from NC to use hehehe
Pedro - a Mule in human form
i've used drum sanders... and like others said... if you keep em move'n and dance with em.. it really ain't that hard but... it someone elses floor...
i just finished my 5th floor in as many days today... only 300sf each... I'm hand plane'n then sanding... then a stain sealer coat... in one day... (first thing in the morning i put a second polyurathane/linseed oil coat on the floor from the day before)
before i went a rented or purchased a "floor sander" i just had to try my 18" floor buffer.... now they sell pads/plates for sanding that fit these machines... but not in my nature unless i found one on ebay for $30... which i didn't... do i used the disk that grabs the scotch bright type pads for floor stripping... i then used a TAN scotch bright pad (tan is one of the softest/finest) then i happen to have a full case of 3m screen 80grit floor sandpaper but it was 18" x 12" so i just clipped the corners off (seemed likr the thing to do) and laid it on the floor under the tan pad which was on the floor buffer.... now you'd think the buffer would just spin on the sandpaper... or the paper whould shoot across the room... but nope... hooks right on like velcro... and stays in place until it's time to flip it over to get more wear out of it...
takes all of... 30-45 min to do a really nice job on sanding... no marks... smooth as can be... i use up the paper pretty good so... maybe it's alot finer grit once worn down.. but i don't know that... i then finish up the edges with my hand held 5" orbital sader with 120 paper... i have huge blowers set up in the doors so most of the dust os blown outside... i finish up with a vac... and then an electric yard blower...... no tack cloth... nothing... then stain sealer coat... I'm up to about 50% polyurathane in my sealer stain coat... and about an 80% polyurathane on the second coat... after baseboards and finish trim... i'll go back and buff the floors with a tan pad and put one last finish coat on... prob a 90% poly...
so far they are look'n really good,,, got the 2nd coat on 4 floors and I'll get the second coat on the 5 in the morning... and start sanding on the 6th... then just 6 more to go :) fun for me...
P
It takes practice and "the touch" like finishing drywall but tougher in the sense you're using a very powerful machine to get a smooth finish. Do not practice on a customer's floor. If you ever try it; the first thing to remember is if you hit the wall its going to dig in fast. Great if you want gutters around the edge.
Rent the ROS or bring in your floor guy.
Those drum floor sanders are great, but absolutely unforgiving. One slip up and you'll have a gouge in the floor - probably in the most conspicuous place in the room.
A couple of other advantages to the ROS are that you won't need a separate edge sander, and they're better at dust collection.
Fir is soft.
I learned to use a drum sander on an oak floor and did fine. No one held my hand, no one told me how to do it, I read about it and got it done.
With that said, you need to make sure the drum sander is adj properly and dont use real agressive paper till you figure out how to best sand the finish off. (real course paper will dig a hole in fir no matter how good you are as a rookie)
Other option is to see if rental company has belt sanders or whatever the new stuff is that is less prone to hole digging.
With that said, I am afraid of nothing when it comes to construction so it depends upon your comoft level with risk, vs reward.
Dont practice on a customers house. Call a sub.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Did a lot of drum sanding back in the day along with edge sanding. Hardwood's not so bad, but try the white pine and you'll see a real days work if you want to make it look right.
Buck said it. Sub it out to the pro and do the mark up. Drum sanders can be real beasts in the wrong hands and it's a killer on the back.
That and roofing...no more.
I'm a wizard with a belt sander, but i wouldn't tackle my own floors without learning from an experienced sander, let alone a customer. I had someone teach me and learned a lot of tricks, like sanding on the diagonal to start the process; it keeps the waves down. A lot of people who've done their own floors are happy with them, but i've never seen an amateur's floor that would please moi.
We did the drum sanding with a Clarkes to 120 grit, which is where most people stop. I decided to follow that with the big orbital to remove those chatter marks, get inside the closets, and get the edges. This turned out to be a very good procedure for getting an excellent floor.
I found the disc edger to be a lot less manageable than the drum sander.
Heck, I can do anything, right? So, in our new to us 50 year old ranch house, I rented a drum sander to redo our oak floors. Read the manuals, watched someone else do it, and went to town - beautiful! until I put the finish on. There was a nice gutter all along my first wall where I KNOW that I didn't pause at all. Darn!
Get a multi pad sander or hire an experienced sub.
Mike D
Years ago there was only drums and I did my two rooms with it. Pretty easy for a DIY kid but when I stained it...yikes....
Then came those orbits, I did the living room and the last bedroom with it...oh boy it came out way better than the guys who did the floor before us and a lot better than the two rooms we did!
I believe you. By the time I'd gotten through 5 rooms with it, I was pretty good with the drum sander, and I still hated the thing. I only used it because it was the ONLY thing available to rent at the time. If I ever need to resand floors, it will be with one of the multiple orbits.
Mike D
I know this is an old topic at this point, but still wanted to comment. I stand behind your desire to want to learn and try new things when it comes to remodeling. That shows a higher level of thinking and a desire to want to further your knowledge. Even doing something once will give you more hands on experience than reading an article and then you'll always have that to look back on and form your own opinions.
Calling in subs sucks and is only good advice if you want your schedule screwed up and if you don't want to learn anything new. Plus, they will charge so much that you will not have the opportunity to make money on them and then they will always leave garbage behind.
Got any pics of the first floor you sanded, Mike?
Ha-ha
Well, back in the day when I was a pee-on for a floor refinishing company it wouldn't have been too cool to stop what I was doing and start snapping pictures, but I see where you're going.
If you don't try something at least once, you'll never get a chance to have a real feel for it. You'll never gain that courage to cross the line and learn your boundaries. I'll sub out many things now only because I tried them once and I know that they'll either be too hard or take too long for me to do.
Although, I do have pictures of the first Bobcat I rented and got to drive (piece of cake and fun), and the first stairway railing I installed (very hard, no thanks). I know my limits through trial and error.
Besides, the original poster considers himself an "experienced carpenter". Would you consider someone an "experienced carpenter" who's never sanded a floor?
'Besides, the original poster considers himself an "experienced carpenter". Would you consider someone an "experienced carpenter" who's never sanded a floor? '
I consider myself an experienced carpenter but after sanding one floor my experience told me it was one of the jobs to sub out at all costs.
Sadly, floor finishers are specialists at a mundane mechanical operation.
Cheers
You won't find a more ardent - or less fearless - proponent on this board of DIY than i am. However, you yourself didn't learn to sand floors through trial and error, but from your entry-level position learning from experts in their field, correct? All we're counseling the OP to do is to follow in your footsteps. ;^)
Correct. I learned floor sanding from the guys I worked for, they were experts. They taught me the skills and tricks necessary to do a professional job.
I have a how-to video of floor sanding which outlines and teaches almost every step, method, and trick to sand a floor properly virtually identical to the way I was taught.
So tell me, does someone have to work on a crew to gain that experience, or can they teach it to themselves by watching a video or reading a book? Where's the line? What's stopping them? Lack of courage?
There's no arguing that those drum sanders are scary, especially when the paper rips and makes even more noise flapping around. I could see the hesitation for someone whose never ran one. Besides, even when our floors came out perfect, the homeowners still complained about the dust, so it's a no-win situation no matter who does it.
I think your question about what a DIY should reasonably tackle is deserving of a thread of its own, but essentially, i would draw the line at OJT in areas where the consequences of getting it wrong were irreversible, dire, and/or affected someone besides myself. For me, so far, that's only been floor sanding and concrete slab finishing.Several also mentioned the safety aspect. My teacher was a pro and a careful man, but one day as he was heading home after a day of sanding, the bag full of dust caught on fire in his van before he got home to empty it.
Edited 2/18/2009 5:51 pm by splintergroupie
Concrete slab finishing, now there's something I probably wouldn't tackle on my own, even if it was my own house
You can save enough money setting your own forms to justify a laser level, though. <G>
the screen sanders work just fine.. slower but without the risks..
I've finished a few floors. Everything said is true. A few years ago, I was working doing trim in 1880's house that the owner was splitting into condo's. Her son(who was out of work) was doing the sanding. She had bids from real flooring companies, but her son was out of work, and...
Anyway the apt. he was working in caught fire about 1 A.M. She was living in the other side and smoke detector went off. She got out, called the firehouse. The cause of the fire was bad connection in the wiring. The high draw of the motor had caused arcing and it took a while to flare up. One of the things I asked her was did he empty the bag and remove the garbage bags from the unit.(One thing I always do at end of day.) He didn't. The saw dust in bags could have caused a fire, but the firemen found the bad wiring.
I removed my smoke covered tools from the unit I was working in and started my next job early.
I use my Porter Cable dry wall sander for this kind of stuff. Good dust collection, and (if Norton still makes the 40-grit paper for it), really fast removal.