Drypack slope shower base quest/thoughts
I posted a cpl of questions/thoughts over at John Bridge’s Forum about doing a drypack sloped mud shower base and thought I’d copy and paste it over here too with one of the answers I just got.
I’ve done quite a few over the years but these are some new thoughts I had.
Any of all ya’ll thoughts goes appreciated.
Mucho thankso
andy
Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 108 | cpl of drypack sloped mud base questions Have all my Hardie up on the walls of a nice sized shower I built for a customer 3 1/2′ x 8′. I’m up to doing the drypack shower floor and have a cpl of questions. One I’m just curious about. What’s the reason for not needing wire lath in the mud base over the liner?? In my case the liner I’m going over is a lead pan my plumber put down for me. Just curious. Also..Is it better to wait a few days to tile over the base or is tiling over it the next day as good….or better…or doesn’t it really matter? Just curious as to whats best. I also had this new idea on my way home tonight and wanted your opinions on it. I was thinking to get my slope at the drain…I’d unscrew the drain up from the pan to exactly where I want my mud base to stop…. which “I’d be using the top of the drain as my guide”. After my mud base is done I’ll screw the drain up to the height I need it when tiled. Hi Andy, when I do a mud base, I make a level line mark off the drain on the wall from the furthest from the drain, then make a mark 1/2″ higher and level it around. That is if your drain is 2 ft from the furthest from the wall, then after you get it where you want it take a piece of floor tile and scrape it down around the drain so the floor tile will be flush with the drain. __________________ Thanks Mike…I’m with ya on everything you said. The only thing in question for me is… “at the drain” I’m going to make my mud thickness approx. 1 1/4″ thick….and like you said…I’ll go up to the longest wall 1/4″ per foot then connect it around the other walls. My question though was…at the drain I was was thinking of using the “top of the drain” as my guide. I thought I’d screw it down approx. a tile and the thickness of the thinset. I just thought the top of the drain would make for a real nice solid guide for one end of my screed. What made me think of that was I’d seen somewhere where they sell this ring that acts as a guide that goes around the drain. I thought why not just use the top of the drain as my guide being I can screw it up and down. I just never heard of anyone doing that before. |
Edited 12/8/2008 10:03 pm ET by andybuildz
Replies
Andy, I always put wire in, thinking that not so thick concrete could crack. Necessary? Who knows but how much is the wire?
Adjusting the drain top to the finish level works, and no tape needed around the threads, don't forget to put some spacers or tile chips there so the concrete isn't actually into the threads much.
Even if it gets in the threads, you're going up from there not down, SeeMon?
Joe H
Thanks Joe...Usually I do add spacers around the drain...it was just an after thought I had tonight to use painters tape instead around the drain. I'm always trying to think of new and improved ways......to the point of giving myself a headache...lol.
Geezzz..it's only been 30 something years of doing this...lol.
I guess what the spacers or tile chips does is allows any excess water around the drain to go down into the drain weep holes but my thought tonight was if I used tape the area the water might work its way in would be super minimal. I guess I'm not really sure of the exact purpose of the spacers around the drain. Thats just the reason I'd always done it.
Also..as far as the wire lath goes...I'm pretty sure John Bridges and other known tile guys have always said they never us it..which was why I brought up the question. Like you....I thought it can only help. In the shower I'm doing it'll cost me anothe twenty bucks or so but it's not the money....I'm just wondering why they never use it is all.
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Edited 12/8/2008 8:57 pm ET by andybuildz
Hi Andy, With drypac morter you will need the mesh. It will also be easy to screed to a 1X at the walls which will be removed as you go. Screed to the drain is the way to go. You can go to NobleCompany.com and watch video's on the whole procedure. They sell all the product you will need. I have used their products and they are superior. Are you using a clamping ring drain? Hope this helps. Steve
Thanks Carpster
I've done quite a few mud shower floors over the years but these were some new thoughts I had tonight.
In the past sometimes I've done it the way you suggest screeding from the top of a lenght of 1x embedded over some mounds of mud bringing my 1x up to my exact height and then removing them as I go (and filling in where the 1x was) and other times I just pound my mud up against the walls to the floor base exactly the height I need it and screed from that to the drain. When I say pound my mud down I mean I pack it down super solid at the walls to give myself a nice shelf (3-4" out towards the drain) to run my screed over.
Thanks for the reply...I like any info I can get : )
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The articles on John Bridge's site in the "Liberry" do show using wire mesh in the drypack. See http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5434
Have they backed away from using the mesh?
Billy
Have they backed away from using the mesh?
Billy
Probably not...I forget where I read that. Thats why I brought it up here b/c it sounded wrong to me and not the way I'd ever done it b/4.
Thanks for linking me to that.
edit: Just checked that link and they're going over a wood floor. I'm going over a lead pan so it can't be nailed down it would have to be embeded.
Also I checked Carpster suggestion and looked at the Noble seal site and the "don't" use wire in their mud bed...hmmmm.
andy
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Edited 12/8/2008 9:45 pm ET by andybuildz
I'm going over a lead pan so it can't be nailed down it would have to be embeded.
Andy, you lost me there.
You have a lead pan with your sloped dry pack on top?
Or I misunderstand you.
Joe H
Joe...yeh...I'm doing a mud base over the pitched lead pan.
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OK, got it now.
Sounded like you were putting the pan on the subfloor and then the sloped pan.
So, you already have the sloped dry pack in, the lead is next.
Why lead? I'm from Calif, hot mop was state of the art there since the 50s. Never saw a new lead pan.
Joe H
Joe....LOL...yeh I know...thats what everyone says..including me, but in my town it's code beleive it or not. I think most guys don't abide by the code here. I'll tell ya what though...after looking at the pan after it's tared it looks more bullet proof then anything.
I think the only thing better is Kerdi IMO.
I'm not so sure I'm ever gonna do it this way again...I think from now on I'm going to always push Kerdi even if it's just for the floor over the mud into a Kerdi drain....code or not.
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I'm goin' to sleep and made up my mind. I'm not using any wire lath. I think it's a waste of time and money. Maybe if the shower was HUGE or I was going over felt on a subfloor and I could staple it down...
I think I worry too much...View Image
nite***
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It's only 9:30 here so I'll worry about it for you for awhile.
Done snowing too, maybe tomorrow's going to be more workee here.
Joe H
So Joe...did ya worry for me last night : ) Appreciate it...lol.
Mannnnnn..am I sorry I asked these questions. Just when I deceided not to use wire reinforcement I get a post from Michael Byrne himself saying he ALWAYS uses it....then some other guy thats been doing tile for over 30 years who's work I looked at and it's really outstanding says he "never" uses it..ugh..geezz...oh yeh..and to make matters even worse I get some guy that keeps telling me diamond wire lath will make the mud bed seperate b/c it won't allow the mud to adhere to it self properly...that one really seemed off the wall to me...when I have used the diamond wire lath I always have pounded my cement into place as hard as I can to fill all air pockets so I don't see how the diamond lath will make it seperate if I used it...he claims it should be the heavy guage wire 2"x2" like they use in foundation slabs I'm guessing...that sounds totally nuts to me...I may go back to worrying again before I go to sleep...lol. too many answers...lol. Amazing!!
I'm doing my mud bed tomorrow morning...lugged all my sand and cement up two flights of stairs today...not to mention over 200# of tile (said that on my ticket)..my backs killin me..ugh..but at least the worst is over. Where's help when ya need it????
On standard (not real deep back lugs)10 x10 wall tiles I usually use a 1/4x1/4x1/4 square notched trowel (I always back butter my tiles as well especially in showers...except for mosaics) and on mosaic floor tiles in a shower I ususally use a V notch...what about you?
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Andy,
At the drain I unscrew it out of the hole (hoping not too many pebbles fall in) and cut the Kerdi with a hole about 1' in diameter smaller than needed. This will leave an extra 1/2" all around sticking into the drain hole. I then make a series of cuts so that I can 'bend' down that 1/2" of Kerdi into the drain hole. The water will (if it gets through the tile and grout) run right into the drain hole that way. (I think)
In the corners I will fold it just like a vinyl pan, up the wall about 8", only I will cut one of the triangles neatly away to avoid to much build up from the thickness of the material.
I'm surprised that I haven't been flamed yet for saying I use Denshile so I'll let another cat out of the bag. I use the pro grade bagged sand mix from the mason supply yard. It is NOT like wat they sell at Depot.
Similiar to your quandry about the mesh, I have never been able to understand how this bagged mix can be too "rich" on Portlandt as that is what many experts will tell you. I mix it till it's like you want beach sand to be to build a castle and I have at it. I've done it the other way but it's much messier and time consuming and you always end up tossing some thing.
For the curbs, I fold the lathe in a sharp Z and stick one leg into the base to hold it in place. The othe end I leave long and fold it over the top of the curb and tack it to the outside face of the curb with a couple of nails.
Smash it down flat and then I put a piece of CBU on the outside face again and fasten it in place to use it as form for doing the curb after I have finished floating the base. For the inside of the curb I will brace up some 1x for the inside of the form.
Add some water to some of my left over mud and squish it in there.
I know more than one or to 'tile' guys that are petrified of floating a base and curb. I've done a few for them and some for real tile guys and almost always get compliments.
If I have time tonight I will see if I can come up with some pics.
Call me if you need any help. I'll pm you with my #.
Eric
I was always too afraid to use the Denshield in a shower even though it says you can. I 've used it on back splashes though. Super easy to use. I can't see why it wouldn't work but it just seems too easy...lol. The Hardie is easy enough (compared to Wonderboard or Durorock) so I've been using that. I also just about always use my grinder outside to cut it on longish cuts.
I don't wanna hijack my own thread BUT....I ALMOST cut off three of my fingers last week!!! The worst accident I've had in over 32 years!! I have this big Bosch grinder I've been using. the Hardie was about to fall off my saw horses outside and I went to catch it and crossed my hand right through the grinder blade!!! I F'n freaked!!!! I automatically made a fist and all I saw was blood coming out of my hand. I felt sick to my stomach. first thing I did was look at the ground to see if I saw my fingers there...really...ugh...no fingers there. I was afraid to open my fist. I opened it and all I had was a seriously bad gash just about down to the bone on one finger and the other two were just bloody. I washed it but couldn't stop the bleeding. The blade as you know is pretty fat. I looked for crazy glue in my truck...lol. No glue. I put tissues around it after spraying bactine on it (lotta good that did) and wrapped it up REALLY tight with duct tape...lol. the bleeding stopped finally. Couldn't decide whether of not to go to the hospital. I'm thinking...F that.. I don't wanna loose a day if I don't have to so I kept working.. Seemed ok. Got through the day. Left the tape on for a few days...undid it and it looked nasty but not gangrened up...lol..so I put more #### on it...gauze and surgical tape. Seems ok now. More scary thinking about it then anything I think. That'll wake ya up!!! When I got home DW asked me how my day went..I said I almost cut off three fingers...she goes..you should be more careful...I'm thinkin'......well ya don't wanna know what I was thinking...lol...doncha hate when people say the obvious!! I just wanted her to say...ohhhhhh...I'm sorry baby..let me give you some.... ..lololol.
Anyway...I was going to do exactly what you said about folding the kerdi into the drain as well as tfolding the corners. Already have done enough Kerdi jobs to know that much.
On this shower I actually tested thinsetting the Hardie to the tarred lead pan on the outside of the curb where the drywall will go eventually. The next day I could not get it off. Matter of fact all I got off was the face of it. I'm gonna actually need a chisel to get the thinset off it stuck so well. I was a little surprised....soooooooo...I thinset my Hardie right onto the curb using zero nails...same with my two bench seats on both sides of the shower. Worked amazingly well. Doubt I could do that with any other material except maybe Kerdi.
This shower should be bullet proof between the lead mud and Kerdi...lol.
Carried up the stairs to the second floor way more spackle buckets then I'll probably need of sand today just to be sure. something like 15 buckets and loaded over 2000pounds of tile in my van (said that on the ticket) and carried that in too. My backs breakin and I ain't even started tiling yet.
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Glad you still have ten.
I hate tile work.
you do? I kinda like it. It's the prep work I have issues with. thats the hard part....then again isn't that the case with everything? The actual work you see is usually the easiest part.
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I think often what makes it sucky is poor choice of materials that I had no say in. I love it when our designer specs a deco horizontal feature where the deco is half tha thicknes of the field tile...........duh............or vica versa.
I'm pretty freaky about lippage and with all the large format tile we are using, I do a fair amount of padding and ranging in hopes of ending up with a flat, true finish.
I probably should'nt be doing tile. dunno, just not a big fav.
Howzabout the newest concept of grouting mosaics then back buttering with thinset...then set the tile in and keep going. It's supposed to keep all the tiles in the square evenly spaced and keeps the thinset from poking through. I swear I'm not gonna try it...ugh...Maybe justa cpl...lol
edit: oh yeh..sure you hate tile...I always know if theres a tile question you'll be right along...lol...love hate thing I think
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Edited 12/9/2008 8:06 pm ET by andybuildz
I just went through that!! Spent a couple of hours picking thinset away from the 1/2' squares............not happy time for sure.
I'm driving home wondering why they cant put them on a solid backing like Kerdi maybe??
Great idea! I say go for it. Just make sure they're flat when you do it. They often require two 'coats" of grout anyway. Where did you get that?
it was in a TCA paper...
oh..and dig this one....too late for me to do it but...how bout instead of going up the walls with the kerdi 6" you go behind the felt paper onto the stud walls then the cbu over the felt. THAT sounds REALLY waterproof if all you're Kerdying is the floor!! Next time!
I think this time I'll go up the walls 6" or so (whatever I have) and use Redgard right over the thinset onto the kerdi an inch or so and up the walls 2-3' to really seal things....oh geezzz. I better stop thinking. It's almost tomorrow already..ugh
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Edited 12/9/2008 8:33 pm ET by andybuildz
didya hear the one about the tile guy and the grinder? no?
tile guy gashes his finger terribly.
his wife asks: "did you mess up the whole finger?"
he says:"no, the one next to it..."
thankew, thankew...
k
laughter is the best medicine?
"I was always too afraid to use the Denshield in a shower even though it says you can."
I started using it about 10 yrs or so ago when, I belive it first came out. Started with a shower in my own house as a test case. Never had any problems with it until my semi-grown kid came home over the holidays and took a 40 minute shower -- heck, I don't need that much water for a full week, but kids will always be kids, even if they are grown.
Anyhow, as she was ending her l o n g shower, I noticed water dripping out of the light fixture below the shower. I checked it out - the escutcheon seal had let go and water was pouring in around it. From the looks of things (stains, rust, etc.), this had been going on for some time -- just never involved enough water to make it through the ceiling before. Despite this, the Densshield, although it had been repeatedly edge and back soaked, was just fine.
Made me smile.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
OK then...I'll give it a shot in my next shower...speaking of which. Just finished my mud shower floor today.
One cool thing I did being the floor was sorta big was...I built me a tempory sandbox in the middle of that bathroom with a luon floor and 2x3 sides screwed together.
Made it the "exact" size of my shower floor 3 1/2' x 8'. Poured my sand and cement in and went to town. Wayyyyyyyyyyyy easier then a wheel barrow or cement pan....plus it allowed me to make the exact amt. I think I was left with a 1/4 spackle bucket of mud. Not bad! I also ...in spite of what some people said here and in JLC...I embedded galvanized wire lath. It can only make it that much better IMO and the effort and cost was next to nothing so...
The thing came out perrrrrrfect and I'm exhausted so...nitey nite kids***
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I also ...in spite of what some people said here and in JLC...I embedded galvanized wire lath.
OMG!! Tell me you didn't do that!
Just kidding!
Tough work for you old guys eh?
Andy, when you mentioned grouting mosaic strips you mentioned a TCA paper?
Some kind of subscription?
Have fun... http://www.tileusa.com/member_main.htm
Actually mixing up that much mud properly and fast with my boo boos was no fun at all.
I hadda get out the ol' duct tape again when I saw blood dripping down the side of my cement hoe....lol.
View Image
BTW...that black thing on my finger nail is cement..not a booger...oh geez..the camera didn't get the ringer finger.
and that happened almost a week ago..echhhhhh
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Better keep an eye on that pointer bud...........couple of hot soaks in some salt water and wrap it up with some bacitarcine cream.
Thanks for the link.
Thats EXACTLY what I've been doing!
Yer welcome
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Dude...a few of those books they sell look awesome! And CHEAP!!!
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Andy,
I don't think I have ever used mesh. Byrnes does in his book, but he is using chicken wire or something. I've never been too impressed with his methods.
You are right on with using the drain as a guage for hieght. It's all I do now.
For the side screeds, I take my time and very carefully set the wall substrate bottoms, at the exact height I want my mud to be. I force the mud under the substrate and use the bottom edge as a guide for the height.
Slope to drain with a straight edge. I do the curb with galvanized wire mesh.
We are using Denshield almost exclusively in our showers and tubs with very good results.
If I am doing the job, I will Kerdi the mud base and up the walls 6-8" and do all the corners as well. Als will Kerdi the curb. It makes a efficient production, solid shower.
Be glad to send you som pics or post here if you wish.
Eric
Thanks eric...I asked them if they wanted to spring for Kerdi but they didn't. I showed him the Kerdi job in my own shower I did but he didn't wanna spend the extra money...so it goes. It's not like Kerdi was always used in the past was his rationale which is true but.....whatever.
Like I said in a previous post I used to use a 1x wood guide over a bunch of lumps of mud bringing the guide to the exact height I want around the pan then screed over that to the drain but recently I found it easier and just as good to just pack my mud down real tight against my walls and screed from the top of that.
I think on this job I'm going to dilute some Redgard and paint the walls with it about two feet up and also on the two bench seats I made for added protection. I love that stuff now that I discovered it. (I used it the first time this summer on this job...use the slide show feature to view it best if ya want http://picasaweb.google.com/andybuildz/COLDSPRINGHARBORHISTORICMANSIONRESTORATION# )
I guess my biggest question is why no wire lath. (the diamond galvie lath). Wouldn't that hold the base together better? I've done it both ways. Without it, it worked fine but........just curious why not to use it?)
Also the other big question I have is around the drain why seasoned tilers always use spacers or tile chips to let any water that might ease it's way in the drain ...out the weep holes in the bottom of the drain. Seems to me if you go tight up to the drain it's be better? Or not? and why not? I was gonna just put blue painters tape around the threads this time and the next day unscrew the drain...take off the tape...and when I got the tile up to the drain add some thinset around the drain and screw it back in.
Just wonderin' ....
edit: Geezz...I guess I asked a good question about the wire lath b/c I'm gettin' all kinda different responses between JLC and John's Forum...ugh..lol
Some guys are even sayin if I you do use wire lath to use the heavier guage with larger holes. That really seems like over kill to me. I think I'll just go with galvie diamond wire lath like I'd done in the past. I ain't building a freakin' garage floor slab for gawdz sakes...lol
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Edited 12/8/2008 10:33 pm ET by andybuildz
$100.00 worth of Kerdi, I can cover a couple of bases (maybe 3) and up the walls 6-8" and do the curb. I know it ain't Mongo -ized but it's better than not.
Couple of jobs we did, we had issues with the some part of the mud base leaching back up through the light colored floor grout..............I think. Plus the Kerdi will create a crack isolation effect where the wall tile meets the floor tile. You know, where the grout ALWAYS cracks. Using the Kerdi virtually eliminates that and certainly eliminates the possibility of water entering the pan at all.
The chips I always do, but I here you. It seems to make for a weak(er) spot in the pan, and if you have to unscrew the drain.................
Though was that the mud base is trapped, why would you need wire lathe? Dunno the technicals on that.
Eric
Like I said...I agree about the Kerdi..oh yeh...don't forget though..you also need the Kedi drain for it to work properly..although I wonder on this particular project being the drain is already in if I deceided to spring on my own the $100 which is what 54 sq ft goes for and I'd need exactly that amount for just this one project if I cut aound the drain thats there..if that'd work....I don't see why not...do you...better then not using it all ...hmmm.
I worry too much..ugh
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Edited 12/9/2008 7:44 am ET by andybuildz
oh yeh...eric..you'll be happy to know I broke down today and called Tile Protetion . com or whatever they're called (I've gotten my Kerdi stuff from them before)...and ordered the 54sq ft roll. the guy on the phone said to me that being I'm doing a mud base and not the premade kerdi base that it's cool if I don't use the Kerdi drain. So yeh...I decieded for the $102. It'd make me just feel better about doing at least the floor that way.
Thanks for pushing me over the line....lol.
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