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Certainly an interesting topic! I saw that the other night too, and noticed that it looked like white beadboard that they glued right to the outer plywood sheeting. We were at a builder’s show a few years ago and discussed this with a rep from tyvek who claimed you didn’t have to worry if you used tyvek under the foam. Someone asked him how reliable tyvek was with a few thousand nails penetrating it. He went on to poke about a dozen nails into a piece of tyvek and made a bag out of it and filled it with water to prove his point. Well the thing sprayed water out of each nail penetration like a sprinkler can. Kind of like a lawyer asking a question he didn’t know the answer to….
I just drove into a new million dollar bank with DryVit on it and noticed that the stucco had pulled away from all of the vinyl clad windows during the winter. Should be interesting to watch and see what happens!
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Gabe, I have never personally used DryVit or a similar system on anything but I've seen a lot of it on new commercial buildings. Is "DryVit" referring to the stucco-like material and the process to apply it or does it also include specs for the foam board??
I do know that white beadboard completely disintegrates when wet or in contact with the ground.
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Gabe,
You always miss the point totally.
I rebuild EIFS. That's as close as I am getting to it till the details that will allow it to work unfailingly are known and I have a chance to review them.
Near the stream,
J
*Tyvek is a great water barrier but will catch any "lobsters" that get behind it too. The idea is to have an open capillary break space between the EIFS and the wood structure otherwise called a drain plane....Structure, barrier, space, then EIFS...These details are now being developed by all the EIFS companies and as they refine the system under watchful eyes it will end up being a past problem.Near the stream,J
*I don't know what the universal application is on dryvit, I can only comment on the ones that I worked on. The project Architects specified the wall composition. The drywall contractor's contract included the dryvit portions. The insulation contractor installed the SM styrofoam on the exterior and then the drywall contractor installed the fibremesh and coatings.I've seen it being applied on a NY public television program and the one contractor was doing it all. However he was installing it on the cheap white granular insulation applied directly to plywood sheating.I hope that some other more experienced installers come on board this post to comment on it and hopefully describe their installation proceedures.
*G.LaLonde,I'm currently removing sections of a slab on grade (32 Years old). Under the perimeter is 1" white beadboard in perfect condition. (Location: NE USA) Jerry
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Jerry, I don't doubt what you say. They still make floating docks and insulated concrete forms out of basically the same material. I live almost next door to a plant that manufactured this stuff and could get it for next to nothing to use for various purposes. That particular product and others simply turns to mush and disintegrates when it gets wet. I don't really know what all the standards are for manufacturing this board, but my experiences with it were similar to those that Gabe had. I would suggest that before anyone uses any "white" foamboard, that they make sure it's suitable for their intended use.
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I just talked to my brother in Jacksonville, Florida today, and he said they are discovering a lot of local tracts that used EIFS are having extensive rot and mildew problems. I remember some news from a couple of years ago that there was a class action suit against the manufacturers of these products. However, the manufacturers won because they proved that the builders didn't follow factory specs on flashing around windows and doors. The Tyvek wrap sounds good, but then I would use Bituthane adhesive flashing and Sika-flex cualk to seal things up tight. Perhaps the makers need to manufacture the foam board with grooves on the back to allow moisture to flow out or through.
*Dryvit came out with new details for a new system a year or so ago. They call it the "Water Managed" system. It uses such novel things as small grooves on the back of the EPS foam to let water drain out and plastic weep screeds at the bottom. Weep screeds have been required with stucco since the late 1960's probably.I'm suprised it took so long for the problems to surface. Sometimes people take too much stock in caulking and surface appearances. Windows were a particular problem. EIFS is an more expensive system and often contractors are tempted to cut back on workmanship to compete in price.Many of the problems are appearing in humid environments like North Carolina. There were many problems there. Poor installation practices are also a problem. Drier areas or different climates may not have the same problems. More conciencious (sp?) contractors will tend to have fewer problems.Gary Wheeler, AIA
*I also saw most of this same show. What made me curious was that only moisture from outside the house was suspect in the rotting problems. What about moisture from inside the living space, where does it go? Is the styrofoam such a good insulator that water vapor from inside the house won't condense on it? Where you could see insulation behind the sheathing, it appeared to be FG. I would love to know how much this contributed to failure in such homes. I see an awful lot of old homes being retrofitted with rigid insulation applied on top of clapboard siding, over which vinyl siding is installed. I have always wondered if this supplied a condensation surface for moisure from inside these old (and usually under-insulated) homes, and if so, would the building envelope not rot from the trapped moisure.Does anyone have any knowledge of this?
*Vinyl siding and insulation...The insulation is usually of the type that breathes...The backer that I have used actually was punctured with holes every inch....And vinyl siding also lets moisture out through it....All in all a well proven system over the years...Near the stream,J
*Jack, I am not referring to the perforated foam backer commonly used under vinyl, but 1" foil faced isocyanurate and blue closed cell foam panels. Several years ago I even observed contractors taping the joints between these panels before applying siding. Just looking at it gave me the hebejebies. Is my fear of this technique justified?In fear for our antique housing stock, Bill F
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So I was watching The Simpsons the other night and was too slow to the mute button when the commercials came on. There was Stone Phillips and Jane Pauly telling me how EIFS siding rots houses within a few years.
"What?" I thought. "Must have been a couple of isolated incidents of extremely poor workmanship." I was never-the-less suckered into watching the show (but I turned it off as soon as the DryVit story was finished).
Now, I know this is sensationalistic journalism, but it sure seemed like there's a lot of brand new houses rotting their guts out... They went to a newish housing development and randomly walked up to EIFS covered houses with a "Specialist" who had a moisture tester (needle-like thing attached to a meter). Every house he stuck that needle into had handfuls of rotten sheathing. They even dug up "internal memos" from DryVit and other companies regarding exactly these types of product deficiencies from the 80's.
This was pretty alarming to me. I have friends with this type of siding on their houses.
I looked back and found a thread about this a couple of weeks ago, and AdironJack said something about it...
Jack have you seen this alot in New York?
Anyone else seen it rampantly?
Stone and Jane were testing in suburbs around DC. It IS banned in one of those Carolinas. I've never heard of any problems till the other day. Where can I get one of those moisture testers?
Hoping it ain't so...
Dan
*Dan,I haven't seen any evidence of this problem here in Ontario. I've used it on commercial projects and they were constructed very much like residential housing. ie wood frame etc.But they were also covered with Tyvek, prior to the installation of 1 1/2 styrofoam followed by the dryvit application. Two of the applications are 9 years old, so it's hard to judge at such an early stage. In Europe, an identical product is being used and apparently has been used successfully for nearly 20 years.Still the jury is out on this one.
*I've seen it used in Montana for years too, and never heard of a problem. But then in Montana we wrapped with Tyvek. Here in Tennessee, I haven't seen housewrap used yet. That may be a huge factor. The houses Stone and Jane were yanking apart were <5yrs old. (!)Dan
*Gabe,"Man who won't look beyond the surface of anything"...The jury is only out because of the millions of dollars and egos that are at stake...I know EIFS is bad news and am able to say that because I Have zero at stake. I have never recommended it(actually have a file I hand to anyone who asks for it of all the failure info,) and have never installed it.Every single EIFS project out there with no drain plane and no failsafe window detail (I don't think one exists to this day,)has a water problem if it's built in a climate where rain falls....Commercial included...The reason why you and all the other "fooled" fools miss the defects is they are buried under the wonderful looking stucco. Get a moisture survey done near the windows and other critical "un-caulkable" areas of fenestration and moisture penetration and you will find rot.b No jury out for me.Near the stream,J
*b DryVit = WetRot.
*Jack you shouldn't comment on things you have never worked with, it destroys what little credibility you have left.
*Flashing is the key to keeping water out of ANY construction. Even a duck will get wet if you turn him upside down.
*Certainly an interesting topic! I saw that the other night too, and noticed that it looked like white beadboard that they glued right to the outer plywood sheeting. We were at a builder's show a few years ago and discussed this with a rep from tyvek who claimed you didn't have to worry if you used tyvek under the foam. Someone asked him how reliable tyvek was with a few thousand nails penetrating it. He went on to poke about a dozen nails into a piece of tyvek and made a bag out of it and filled it with water to prove his point. Well the thing sprayed water out of each nail penetration like a sprinkler can. Kind of like a lawyer asking a question he didn't know the answer to....I just drove into a new million dollar bank with DryVit on it and noticed that the stucco had pulled away from all of the vinyl clad windows during the winter. Should be interesting to watch and see what happens!
*G Lalonde,You may have touched onto an interesting aspect. We never use the white granular type insulation on our projects anymore because we found that is not only deteriated within a few years but suck up water like mad.I believe we should maybe focus on this aspect for a little while to see if others agree.