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Going on two years building my house. Hired a drywall contractor to supply, hang, finish and prime the drywall. Hung it fine in under 4 days, finishing though… Please tell me, is it expected or overkill to look at the drywall with a flashlite at an angle to inspect for a proper finishing job? I don’t want to drive my drywall guy crazy but, before he primed, I could see that practically every spot that was mudded was still high, or proud of the drywall surface. This is not so obvious looking straight on, but with a light almost every spot casts a shadow. The only sanding they did was one guy with a long 10 in orbital sander, which left arcs in many places and cut ridges in the plastic bullnose corner bead on all the outside corners. I asked him not to prime until they had sanded the walls but, I don’t think they intended to sand anything. Now, they’ve primed, and yes over the mudded areas without further sanding, and when I go in at night to work with the shop lights on, all the walls look horrendous, most every spot stands out in relief, some places are two or three screw spots connected with a long stripe of mud. Can any of you drywall guys offer some advice? Am I being too critical? Will this actually hide with paint? And the big problem… The primer they used from Wa__ Ma_t won’t sand to a feather edge. When I tried to sand a couple spots down level, the primer tends to polish and makes a rough bulls eye when you break through. What am I up against here? House is 3200ft sq with an open floorplan, and knockdown ceilings and really tall walls. Any help would be most appreciated.
Bill Smith
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Hey badhabits,
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"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it."
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*Joseph, That's why I'm asking your advice, thanks. I need to know what's reasonable to expect from the drywall guys, and at what level of finish is "ready for painters". Are painters expected to deal with the blobs on the wall? And if they can't sand through the primer either, how do they solve the problem of all the spots on the wall?
*Hard to say from where I'm sitting if you got a good job or not. A couple of points though, even the best jobs will look bad under work lights. If you don't plan on living in it using work lights, that isn't much of a way to judge the final product.The arcs and nicks in the corner bead would not be acceptable.The screws covered with a continuous "stripe" of mud is the correct way it is done. Sanding all the way down leaving just the hammer dimple filled will show through the finished wall.I would say they made a poor choice of primer, although I don,t know of many primers that would sand out to a feather edge on drywall. My choice in primer is USG's First Coat. It is a little heavy - bodied for some, but covers nicely.FWIW the drywall can be repaired (and spot primed) after the initial priming. For a finisher of my caliber (.00), it usually is necessary.After all repairs are made and it is primed, bring in someone who knows what is acceptable and get their opinion. Just do it during daylight hours.Terry
*Drywall will never be perfect. Reading your post its hard to judge the job without actually seeing it, but I think the crummy job spotting screws would indicate that the whole job is suspect.I typically pay between $.65 and $.80 / s.f. all materials supplied and installed in my area for a top notch job. As Joe stated, they get the walls ready for paint. Alot of finishers here will throw a light to the wall when sanding and there is generally no touchup once the painters start.I wonder if you got what you paid for?
*You didn't say how you plan to finish. A heavy orange peel or knockdown texture will hide most of that. Most of the builders around here use texture for that reason, and extra time spent sanding taped joints is considered wasted money.On the other hand... If you are going to use smooth paint, your walls need to be very flat. You may need to go over the whole surface with a skim coat of finishing compound and then do some sanding with a large flat block. Expect this to cost a lot more than texture paint.
*Hi badhabits, If you want a smooth finish on the spackle its best to sponge it before priming. That's sponge it as in wipe the spackle to a feathered edge using a sponge and plain water. Use a big sponge and don't soak the wall either. Stay on the mud and don't get the paper too wet. Rinse frequently and change your water often too. When it dries rub it with your hand. You can wear a light cotton glove too. Now take you light and cast it along the surface. There. Overkill? Nah. Insufferable?... Dan-O
*I agree with TLE on the scuffed paper on the corners. I've seen guys tear this stuff up pretty bad, and have a heckuva time trying to cover it up. Better tapers I've seen end up with a clean, straight line on the round bead. No scuffing on the paper. All in all, like it's been said, you'll always be able to find imperfections no matter who tapes it. A perfect tape job and parting the Red Sea are along the same lines of skill.
*Thanks for all the help guys. I didn't want to say it to start with, but I used to do (and still do a little) automotive paint and body work, and I'll admit this may be getting a little in the way, and I have done some drywall hanging and finishing on personal projects. But with body work, what's good enough for drywall wouldn't even be close on a fender. And when I've done drywall, I always sanded the joints and screw spots down pretty close before I ever thought about primer, and it's much easier to sand bare mud, than trying to doctor the spots after it's been primed, just wish my finishers knew that. And maybe I'm expecting a little , but only a little too much from the drywall finishers. Anyway, it still looks like crap to me, we'll see later this week when the subs are coming back. Maybe they'll suprise me...Bill Smith
*Switch to wall paper?
*"10 inch obital sander" to sand walls? I've installed thousands of SF of walls and I have never seen a power sander used. For a smooth wall a good taper would put on three coats of mud using wider knives on each coat. Knock down the ridges after each coat with the taping knife. Sand only after the finish coat using a pole sander with 100 grit open mesh paper. Wipe down with a sponge mop that is almost dry. If you paid the going rate for a flat finish then you should receive the desired finish. If this was a low budget taper without experience then you got what you paid for.
*This sounds like the customer from hell. Comparing wall paint to auto body paint! The compound will always be a little proud especially on the butt joints. And for the tapered joints you all know it also will be proud. If sanded completely flat the tape or at least the ridge of the taper will show. Now I know you all know that. How do you cover 4 inches of taper with 18 inch wide compound cover and not be proud. And for the sander it was probably the porter cable professional unit that only the big guys have. You know which one I'm talking about. Feather edge interior house paint? Only if you go back to the days of lead paint. This guy is an idiot.
*Badhabits, I can see you aren't going to get much help in here on this question. It is very hard to judge a quality job without seeing it.I think Mace is coming on a little too strong but his message is sound. It's not fair to judge a flat painted drywall job against a car exterior that is going to get a high gloss polished surface. That's called comparing Apples to Oranges and it shouldn't be done.There is the possibility that you have a lousy job. Your frame has sat a long time and there might be significant problems with the flatness of the plane. Studs that stand that long without cover tend to do wierd things. Is it possible that your frame was not up to snuff and is contributing to some of the "problem'?You were advised to judge your results in the proper light and I agree. I'd also like to suggest that you evaluate the house that you are living in right now. How is the drywall in that one? Now, take your flashlight at night an re-evaluate it. If there is significant difference between your present house and the new one than maybe it needs some more work. If your new house does need some more work, give the contractor an honest chance to make his work good. Many will do whatever it takes, if asked in the proper spirit.good luck.blue
*Hey Mace,Your attitude makes YOU sound like the idiot!CM
*Mike, I think he might be referring to the Porter Cable drywall sanding/vac machine. Even good tapers find this thing most cool. They might have to do a little hand work, but the dustless beauty of this thing sure has some pluses....the main one being no dust. In commercial remodels, it sure beats fighting the mess. Residential, where you've got room to move, same thing. About the only criticism I would have is it's damn loud. Just wanted to make sure you knew it wasn't some goofball that puts it on thick and then takes a power sander to it.
*bad.. it doesn't sound like a good job..and that's bad..but i'm not there .. and that's good..could i sell that finish to my customers ?could i get my painter to paint it without asking for an extra for uneccessary prep work ?doesn't sound like it..but there are a lot of different standards in taping..one of the reasons everyone here went to skim-coat plaster...we still do our own taping with durabond.. for repair work and small remodeling.. but nothing like what you are describing... my customers just wouldn't pay or give us a referral for future work...but like i said , bad, .. i'm not there.. and that's good !
*You can get a nice drywall finish, the problem is that it is damn hard to find a good contractor. I can only think of one guy around here that I would let in my house, and I know many. So the odds are you will get an average job, and while your job sounds like it *might* be on the low side of average, the drywaller doesn't owe you anything.There are many reasons not to let the drywallers paint, but your situation is another. As you have found out, sanding the compound flat now is not an option. If you want flat you need to skim; you fix what needs fixing, sand and dust the walls, trowel the worst spots, skim, sand. It's just not always fun being a contractor...
*Many years ago I had builder use a drop light to "check" my drywall work. 7200sf of dw in a log cabin. No ceiling or exterior walls, so there was a considerable amount if interior wall surface. After his first walk through with his light and pencil, I gave him a touch up. The painter primed the walls and he did another walk through, and I gave him another touch up. the painter touched up my tuoch ups and he did another walk through.You guessed it. This was going to be a nevere ending cycle that neither the painter or I were going get out of.Both the painter and I did excellent work and what that clown was picking us apart over was the difference between the surface textures of the drywall mud and the drywall paper. The only way to avoid seeing that difference under a low angle light is to skim coat the whole wall.Now if you have obvious goughes, then you mark them and have your contractor fix them. If you can't live with the look of drywall, then maybe you should have paid for a plaster job. Don't hold your drywall man to a standard he can't reach with the product he is using.
*i Both the painter and I did excellent work and what that clown was picking us apart over was the difference between the surface textures of the drywall mud and the drywall paper. The only way to avoid seeing that difference under a low angle light is to skim coat the whole wall. Not necessarily true. If you do drywall finishing, you should know right off to use the PROPER primer. The proper primer is PVA primer. This primer is very specific in its usage, and it eliminates the difference in texture and finish between the paper and the mud (taped joints). Once the PVA primer is applied, you can apply the paint primer of your choice, or just paint right over it with your top coat. If you prime with a standard primer, and then topcoat, or if you do like some, and just topcoat bare drywall, you will most definitely see a difference in final appearance of the taped joints and the flat areas of the drywall panels. These areas do not accept paints or primers equally, so the PVA primer is used in order to get both of these surfaces to accept paint and primers equally. When you have primed with PVA, and then painted, you caanot see a difference at all between the two surfaces.Even when the walls are getting textured, we still use the PVA primer. It has saved us a lot of headaches, and does wonders to the finshed appearance of drywall. Just a thought...James
*You have a brand of PVA primer you generally use?
*This forum is great! Such a lively group of folks. Seriously though, thanks for the input. Dan-o has the right idea if they'd done exactly this BEFORE they put the cheap primer on! Mike S. the sander was the common Porter Cable unit and in CAPABLE hands should be a gift from above to drywall guys. But remember the round plastic bullnose cornerbead got nice long flats sanded in them from floor to ceiling by the guy with the sander, that's just total stupidity, at least I stopped him just before he started the upstairs. And, as for the price, I agreed uncontested to his price which was 1600 bucks HIGHER than the low bidder, and 500 bucks higher than the next highest bidder, because he "had done many custom homes like this and the radius walls and bullnose was no problem" But, the "ACRYLIC" knockdown ceilings I specified and signed for ended up being "BAG MUD" knockdown. The circular windows they were to trim with "trim-tex super L bead" ended up being drywall sills and nothing close to round. I spent last weekend tearing them out to bare framing, cutting a drywall circle and attaching the "trim-tex super L bead" to it and reinstalling it into the wall, it looks great and the drywall guy was very impressed. And...I'm certainly not trying to get an automotive finish out of a drywall job, but I am trying to salvage as good a job as I can out of this without making enemies. I've been very diplomatic and patient through this, as they started the last week of Dec and were to be done in 4 or 5 weeks. My intention from my first post was to ask you guys what level of finish "SHOULD I" expect from my drywall guy that agreed to supply/hang/finish and prime. All of your responses have been very helpful with the exception of "MACE"! Geez Man, did you forget to take your Prozac last week? I think Qtrmeg and James DuHammel have a handle on the situation as it stands now and I bought 5gal of Sherwin W Preprite High Build drywall primer surfacer to use after the drywall guys are done. I think they're going to skim everything and re-sand and if they do, I don't think I could ask anything more and I'll go on with it from there. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt 'till the end, but I am gettin' a little tense! James, what does PVA stand for? And has anyone else used any of these trim-tex pieces? What a real time saver. The Super L Bead worked like a charm...Again, thanks much for the help and opinions as always,Bill Smith
*James, I said many years ago. PVA was just coming of age then. In 1976 poly vinyl acetate was finding some applications in trade sales (residential) paint, but the majority of it was used as bonding agents and white glue. I was lab tech. for a major paint manufacture in one of my preconstruction careeres. The painter was my next door neighbor, and believe me if there had been a product on the market that would have solved our problem, we would have found it.I did get some satisfaction when I had the same builder locked up for giving me bad checks in excess of $500. I got paid, he got a roto root from the owner, and I got to build two decks for the owner.
*
Going on two years building my house. Hired a drywall contractor to supply, hang, finish and prime the drywall. Hung it fine in under 4 days, finishing though... Please tell me, is it expected or overkill to look at the drywall with a flashlite at an angle to inspect for a proper finishing job? I don't want to drive my drywall guy crazy but, before he primed, I could see that practically every spot that was mudded was still high, or proud of the drywall surface. This is not so obvious looking straight on, but with a light almost every spot casts a shadow. The only sanding they did was one guy with a long 10 in orbital sander, which left arcs in many places and cut ridges in the plastic bullnose corner bead on all the outside corners. I asked him not to prime until they had sanded the walls but, I don't think they intended to sand anything. Now, they've primed, and yes over the mudded areas without further sanding, and when I go in at night to work with the shop lights on, all the walls look horrendous, most every spot stands out in relief, some places are two or three screw spots connected with a long stripe of mud. Can any of you drywall guys offer some advice? Am I being too critical? Will this actually hide with paint? And the big problem... The primer they used from Wa__ Ma_t won't sand to a feather edge. When I tried to sand a couple spots down level, the primer tends to polish and makes a rough bulls eye when you break through. What am I up against here? House is 3200ft sq with an open floorplan, and knockdown ceilings and really tall walls. Any help would be most appreciated.
Bill Smith