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We are in the process of building a new home and need to decide on using just drywall or drywall with thin coat plaster. Our builder doesn’t like using the plaster because of the spider cracks you get. However, we have four children and don’t like how easily drywall dents. We need to hear from those of you with experience as to what holds up the best. The pros and cons and any advice would be appreciated. We are close to that stage….so HELP!!! Thank You.
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Replies
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Sounds like you understand the benifits of plaster skim coat over blueboard. I have been plastering over blue board for twelve years and the problems I have seen with cracking have nothing to do with the plaster itself. If there is some structural settling and or problems with the blueboard installation, there could be cracks or nail or screw pops. In those cases drywall and joint compound would also have similar failure. Spider cracks in the plaster is a problem with the plaster mix or application. If mixed and applied correctly plaster doesn't crack on its own. Regular 1/2 inch drywall has impact strength of 1000 psi. That increases to 2200 psi or more with 1/2 inch bluebaord and veneer plaster. If your looking for 3500 to 5500 psi, a two coat plaster over bluebaord will give you that. The other consideration is how you finish the surfaces. If you want a gloss paint finish, the difference between drywall joint compound and the paper surface will show under low angle light. Plaster will give you a consistant surface. If you are looking for a smooth ceiling, again plaster is the answer. The textured ceiling stuff sprayed on ceilings is to hide irregularities with joint compound, because ceilings get a lot of low angle light. Also, if you ever look at how sheetrock and blueboard is made, you will notice a beveled edge running along the long dimension. The bevel creates a place for tape on the seams. On the ends without the bevel, there is no bevel and the tape has to stick out from the paper surface. Good tapers feather these joints out to hide them. With plaster everything is evenly covered giving a more uniform surface. Plaster is not indistructable as my teenage boys have clearly proven, but repairs when the sheetrock itself is not broken are a snap with either patching plaster or a setting or drying joint comound. I work in south eastern Connecticut where plaster is uncommon and most people think it is either not done anymore, or are wary of it because its not what they think is the norm.
*Isn't there a significant cost difference if you use blue board and plaster Sam? Isn't cost what brought on the common use of drywall instead of plaster in the first place? I think that is what led to the use of textured walls and ceilings here on the west coast too. What is a rule of thumb square foot cost for blue board and skim coat?
*Sam, you're just the man I'm looking for.I hate drywall, especially sanding it and repairing it. I am in fact experimenting tonight with skimcoating it with Durabond as a simple ceiling texture for just the reasons you mention, to homogenize the surface and add some interest. I did part of a test sheet troweled flat, part textured with a 1/8" V-notch trowel, part rolled with a thick-nap paint roller. If anything, I think I'll save time over trying to get a regular perfectly flat drywall ceiling in a current basement job.I have also done true plaster with wood-fiber base and Champion white coat over metal lath. The true plaster is like concrete, maybe 4000 psi, but a heck of a lot of work. I'm now looking at the blueboard 2-coat+finish approach and would like to know if it is worth it. How does plaster compare to the more convenient Durabond? Also, does anyone use rock lath or metal lath on a regular commercial basis -- I'm not talking specialty restoration stuff.Jim, blueboard is only a buck or two more over drywall's current unreasonable price ($9-12 for 4x8x1/2" here). The only difficulty is with irregular availability here. Regular drywall can also be coated with PVA so that plaster will stick. Drywall replaced MUCH more labor-intensive plastering over wood lath or buttonboard that took forever (months) to cure before painting; blueboard is sort of an effort to get back to plaster without all the work. I've heard blueboard criticized here as fake looking. I think plaster is a lot of fun, kind of like playing with concrete or mud, though i confess I'm terrible at it.Blueboard costs more because of labor. I'm not sure this is justified. It may be because of skim-coat's prestige status at the moment. I imagine any rocker could learn skimcoating. Getting a perfectly flat surface is tough, but luckily that's not my goal. The Champion sets up very very fast.I've noticed that Home Depot is suddenly selling expanded metal lath and real plaster now (Structolite, Champion, not plaster of paris). Interest is growing, and this would be a very good skill to have. Besides, maybe I mentioned, I hate drywall (our WWII house is mostly 1" thick plaster).Bill, one selling point might be thst skimcoat costs less than just a few drywall repairs with the paint-matching irritations, etc. I've dented drywall just leaning stuff against it.
*My experiance is that plaster skim-coat over drywall is more of a regional technique being quite common in New England, but not so common in many other areas of the country. I personally prefer this technique, but due to the additional cost of labor and the lack of skilled craftsmen to apply it, I have a hard time selling it to my clients. If you can afford it, and find a good craftsman to apply it, I would go for it.Jim, here in the Phila. area the cost for plaster skim-coat can add 1/3 or more to the cost of a drywall job, some times up to 50% more. Bill Swales
*We are payin' somewhere around .70/square ft for textured drywall here in Western WA. So you are payin' about a buck a foot Bill? That is less of an upcharge than I would have expected.Andrew - you may think you like that plaster now, but wait until you want to remodel a little, you'll be cussin' that stuff when you have to cut a hole for a door or window.
*I have been debating the various merits of drywall vs. blueboard for future projects... We hang and usually finish our own drywall, and I could live without the sanding. Plus it is hard to get dywall perfect, even if you take extreme care with it. We normally do at least a four coat finish, and try to spread our butt joints (where we can't avoid them) to at least 24", but you can still see if you look hard enough. So skim coat plaster sounds like a better deal, and for me might even be about the same price. But... I worry about Jim's point. My customers like to make lots of after the fact changes. I don't really mind, because overall it usually makes for a better finish product. But with plaster I would worry a lot more about making holes in the finish after it's up.
*Jim, I have REAL buttonboard (ok, almost real, not old-time wood lath which I hear is a pain not to crack) plaster, and it's not at all difficult to go through quite accurately with a Sawzall, demo blade, and small sledgehammer, honest, I've cut plenty of holes. A coarse blade produces very little dust, too. Metal lath plaster, on the other hand, is misery to take apart. As Monty Python would say, "Run away! Run away!"I doubt blueboard would put up a whole lot more fight than drywall -- much thinner.
*Andrew, Gotta disagree with you on a couple things. When you say "Any rocker could learn to do plaster" I conjure up images of local rockers, and when they say rocker here, it means just that. They rock and roll, they're a hardy group, throwing down beers and throwing up 12 footers, sometimes bigger, and at the same time. They don't mud. They don't tape. And they sure as hell do not skimcoat with plaster!Second, when my sawzall gets into plaster, it's a hellstorm of dust. I cant' even see where I'm cutting a few seconds into a plaster wall. And cutting through plaster AND lath is pure misery, a vibrathon with the requisite dust to boot. When those blades catch on the lath, I become part of the machine, a human hammerdrill of sorts. Really shakes the whole area. And this is using the plaster blades made by Milwaukee, which last long enough to cut maybe 15-20 feet like this, and no more.Other than that, I agree that learning plastering is a great skill to have, and you won't see the tape joints, much more impact resistance, although I don't see repairing drywall dings as being too tough a job.MD
*OK, I was glib about the 'rockers'. But DON'T use the plaster blade -- I made that mistake. The thick Milwaukee "Ax" demo blade pulls out little pieces instead of dust and lasts much longer without polluting the entire atmosphere. It's really pretty clean, I just let the weight of the saw carry it down the wall. Metal lath, I don't know if there's any cure for that.
*Milwaukee circular saw ,diamond blade , fan , dust mask ,zips right through metal lath .
*We are using more and more thincoat on remodels, partly because of the dust issue, but also because it paints nicer and is usually faster than drywall. Here in the midwest it is, on the average double the cost of drywall. Dan, I think your fear about the fine cracks stems from the older, traditional plaster systems, as I haven't seen that problem on thincoat properly done. Here in Des Moines even 2 or 3 years ago, only 2 or 3 companies did plastering, which had a lot to do with the higher cost. This year 11 companies are listed, so plaster must be making a comeback here, thaugh I haven't seen it in new construction yet.I'd say if you can stand the extra cost, go for it
*.....here in RI....skim coat over blueboard is about $1/sf for new construction....to $1.25 for cathedral ceilings ....to $2/ for some of the real intricate stuff..and skim coat is neater, no sanding dust... faster --only one coat..doesn't need a lot of heat because it's plaster (does exothermic reaction sound right ?) and it's actually easier to remodel with than dry wall, you can patch in with plaster or Durabond (Easy-sand, 25 minute, 45 or 90 minute set times)the dust doesn't come from the plaster , it's the same material as sheetrock...the diference between sheet rock & blueboard is the paper is specially treated (the "blue" board) so it doesn't wick the water out of the plaster...the DUST comes from cutting the core of the board, it's the same gypsum as drywall....if you don't have plaster in your area...sit down with your favorite sheetrocker and 'splain to him how much better his life is going to be as a plaster-man than competing with all the other dry-wallers....before 1980 almost noone did plaster in RI......now the only drywall is commercial and some tract housing.......if you want to prove it to yourself, try it on one of your own projects.. get a plasterer in and go to school...
*AD, I'll give the ax a shot. I've got a whole pack of them, just didn't think they'd hold up any better. Putting in a pocket door, cutting open a plaster wall, probably rip through both sides at once. Yeah, I let the rockers roll, stay outta their way, but unless they could plaster on a harley, they'd probably have to pass!
*Dan,If you can afford to do so, go with the skim-coat plaster. It will be a far superior surface to drywall. Aesthetically, acoustically, child-ding-proof-ally...you'll love it.I assure you that if you go with drywall, it will be something you regret.I don't understand why any builder would shy away from plaster...around here, plaster is something to be proud of, it sets you apart from drywall. Could it be that he's not familiar with it, meaning, more importantly, he doesn't have a plaster crew in his rolodex? Cracking is caused by the aforementioned reasons...structural and a poor mix. If your builder builds quality housing, you've eliminated the prior. And to be honest, I haven't met a bad plaster crew to date. Most plasterers realize they are, in general, doing "upscale work", and their efforts and attitudes reflect that.Regardless of what you choose, in the end, don't let a single nail be used in any gypsum board product that gets installed in your house. Screw it.
*I have to cut one of our walls for a door -- I'll time myself and take a couple pictures. I'm guessing maybe three blades, the 3-4" ones (not sure doing both sides at once would work -- it's nice to get the edge in the right place the first time).
*THREE blades? For ONE frikkin' door? That sounds expensive to me.
*For 1"-thick plaster? Both sides?OK, Jim, I'll try to conserve. But they're only a buck or so apiece, and 'cause I live here dust control is very important!Gotta find the door i want first ... at discount! Now that's real money.
*
This is my first entry to the site. As most of my business is remodeling older homes in So. Cal I am always having to tie new work into old plaster. To make it look right and blend into the old, I hang drywall then use 20 min smoothset where the plaster and drywall meet as well as for the first coat on all seams. I then use multipurpose drywall mud and apply two skim coats over the drywall. Looks just like plaster and usually there is little or no sanding. Cost wise it adds about $450 for 15x18 room.
*
Welcome aboard, Tom...
*This may be a dumb question, but do you have a Sawzall, or a saw where you can adjust the depth of the shoe? What I'm getting at is are you using all the blade, or just a few inches of it?
*Yeah Tom, what do you drive?
*Tom,You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and probably will be used against you for the sake of humor. You don't have the right to an attorney, but if you want legal advice anyway (for all the good it will do you), you can check with our resident attorney, Andrew.Welcome!Rich Beckman
*Tom, I was here for a while, had to go on a little trip then came back. Don't let these guys scare ya. Hell some of them drive Chevy's.As I see most of you use sawzall's. I do as well. What is this "ax". A friend of mine rigged up a dewalt skill saw with a water misting set up to control heat when he had to cut thu block walls. A side effect was no dust.He ran ice maker copper line in a horse shoe around the blade and mounted to the table. He had holes dridded pointing to the blade. He then ran flexible hose to a 2 gal. garden sprayer so he could preasurize it and work with both hands. I'll have to ask him how it works on plaster. Here's to ya Chuck.
*"AX" are blades typically used for demo. That is, when I'm out of 30mm.
*Yes, a Sawzall, and yes, all the blade. The plaster is very abrasive. But I'll see how frugal I can be next time.
*C-4, Det Cord, And shape charges are ok but you most definitely will have dust, and debri. (And possibly a few extra openings.) Who makes the "AX" blades I fankly haven't seen them.
*DavidMilwaukee make them; excellent blades.Jerry
*The "Ax" blades are maybe 50% thicker than regular one so that you ruin fewer jamming the blade, and have coarse tooth counts. If you have a plastic "Quik-Loc" blade clamp, you are almost guaranteed to break it with these blades -- but the clamp is easily upgraded to metal for a few dollars.Available everywhere, incl. HD. BTW, when I mentioned blade count to cut a door opening, I didn't mention both sides are plaster and that I'd probably be cutting one side at a time.
*Well that's all well and good, but I still would rather use a claymore.
*For a price, or a really cold and really good beer I can teach you how to make a claymore out of your nailgun strips or coils.Oh, the bennifits of a fine Army education.Relax I'm on your side.Dave
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Sorry for not responding, I've been busy and don't get on computer as often as i like. I drive a Chevy. The Ax works real well for me for major demo but I like those little specialty drywall blades with no set to them. Keep the saw close to the wall and the RPMs low and minimal dust.
*
Dave,
The main benefit of the "...fine Army education" was teaching the boys to not just read, but to comprehend the statement:
"THIS SIDE TOWARDS ENEMY".
Ouch!
BTW, sounds like a seminar for Petefest '00, Coil-nail Claymores, you can also send it to Taunton for publication under the "New Methods" section as a way to prevent job-site theft.
*
I am considering reparing a damaged plaster wall in a building approx. 100 years old. The plaster is on wood slats but there is also wire mesh in the plaster. The plaster appears to have dark fibers (horse hair?).
I looks like the right way to repair the wall is to remove all the plaster down to the wood. The questions I have are:
1. do I have to be worried about asbestos in the plaster.
2. should I remove all the plaster and lath down to the wood.
3. what is the best way to remove the material?
4. what (and how much) material should I put over the wood? I want to match the plaster in the rest of the room which has a rough brushed arc texture.
Regards,
Mike Stewart
*
....Mike..
1) no asbestos
2)depends on the size of the patch... generally, knock the loose plaster off the "lath" with a hammer, leave the lath in place,use a repirator,
square off the area, screw Blueboard (probably 3/8") over teh lath, bridge the edges with fiberglass sticky mesh, use a base coat, and keep it at least an eight of an inch below your finish surface
apply your finish coat , smooth it out and while it's still workable, use a sponge float to duplicate the "ARCS" and fan pattern of the previuos and adjoining wall surface...practise in a closet...
*
You can also get little plaster washers which pull old plaster tight when the keys have broken off. These work well to prevent lots of patching work.
*
an interesting topic with scattered references in the archives. removing the plaster back to good lath, and fastening the lath to the stud, is very important. I find the expanded metal lath easier to find than blueboard -- it's a bit of a pain to screw in and float and all, but very strong; on the other hand blueboard (or ordinary drywall prepped with plasterweld or PVC/white glue) provides an instant flat surface. I did an entire kitchen wall with metal lath, plan to use blueboard for a larger project soon.
to show no hard feelings, check http://www.ornamentalplaster.com too
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Despite price estimates on this board and certain PBS shows for skim-coat plaster over blueboard of ~$1/ft labor and materials, the BEST estimate I can get locally (Asheville, NC) is $3/ft labor only. Ouch! No can do. Best info is that there is not much demand and even less supply here.
An alternative offered is a knock-down finish--spraying joint compound on walls and then knocking it down. This would be in the $1/ft range, labor and materials. Pros? Cons? Thoughts? Advice? I really, really want to do better than standard drywall.
Thanks,
Jim
*
I don't like knock down on walls. It makes wall papering almost impossible. I like knock down on ceilings. Good drywall looks every bit as classy as plaster. Plaster costs more and it may be a selling point but folks will not pay more for it when you sell.
*There is something called a "class 5" finish by the gypsum people -- bascially just a skimcoat of compound over the entire surface of the drywall, trowelled flat or knocked-down or textured however you choose. If you use Durabond the result is pretty tough -- I'm using a paint roller to put some on a ceiling some point next week -- and even regular drying compound reinforces the drywall. (One of my strongest objection to drywall is its weakness to impact.) If you later want a smooth wall, skimcoat it again. It's a good thing for surfaces to be finished glossy, as is makes the texture homogeneous.Plaster, however, offers HIGH psi strengths (3500-6000) and adds significant mass to the wall. IF you care about these things it great stuff.
*
We are in the process of building a new home and need to decide on using just drywall or drywall with thin coat plaster. Our builder doesn't like using the plaster because of the spider cracks you get. However, we have four children and don't like how easily drywall dents. We need to hear from those of you with experience as to what holds up the best. The pros and cons and any advice would be appreciated. We are close to that stage....so HELP!!! Thank You.