I’ve done a few drywall jobs before. I’ve got my prices down OK, but I’ve never been asked to drywall the door and window returns. Two doors and windows per room, I’ve figured that adding 40% to my SF cost will cover it. I’m wondering if that’s a typical price increase.
Anyway I despise drywalling. I caught myself almost offering to case them for free labor instead of having to mud them. I decided that would have been stupid though. But then again I keep taking DW jobs…
How do we dance while our world keeps turning? How do we sleep while our beds are burning?
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Sorry, I guess that was a crazy question. It worked great for me, and I guess that's all that matters. My customer was happy, and has more work for me. I don't blame her, because her rooms do look awfully nice. And I have enough work for another half year.
I'm just curious to know what people pay for drywalled returns. I know the material savings can be substantial but I still don't get it. Drywall sucks.
Other than work I don't get out much and prefer to spend large amounts of time on my own...so when I post here on the forums you all are in very exclusive company...
But I sure do read alot here. I have learned so much just because this publication exist. And there are so many knowledgable characters here at the forum. It's impossible not to learn something about something every time I visit.
Mike,
What you're talking about is called wrapping in dry waller's jargon. Wrap an opening with sheet rock. When the job calls for wrapping an installed window, it's usually an aluminum or vinyl unit which is about 2"-4" short of the inside surface. Often, J bead is slipped onto the cut piece of sheet rock and that edge is butted to the window. Usually all four sides of the window are wrapped this way and then corner bead is applied to the outside corner. The reason for wrapping window is simple economics. The only time I've done it was on some low income government housing.
Wrapping door openings, instead of installing a jamb and casings, can be a design choice as well as an economic decision. When no door is planned for an opening, wrapping is often specified, particularly if the opening is in a corner.
Wrap the window. That's easier to say than returning the window. These were block walls with furring strips so they were about 5 1/2" deep.
The j-bead gets covered with mud, right- I like it- I suppose it offers some protection from moisture, or is it just easeir to finish? If I wrap any more openings, I'm using the j-bead.
Thank you for the tip.
How do we dance while our world keeps turning? How do we sleep while our beds are burning?
<<The j-bead gets covered with mud, right- I like it- I suppose it offers some protection from moisture, or is it just easeir to finish? If I wrap any more openings, I'm using the j-bead.
Thank you for the tip. >>
That's right Mike, The corner bead gets taped, as usual, and the mud carries over to the plastic J bead.
I never asked but I think you're right on both counts. It protects the end of the rock from getting FU by moisture and it makes it easier for the taper to finish.
Edited 4/5/2007 10:40 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
The only time I've done it was on some low income government housing.
Typical yankee answer. This is one of the things that tends to bother me a little: the majority of posters here are used to old homes and old methods typically found in the New England area, and they don't understand the rest ofthe country. It is very common in Texas in homes built in the last 20 years that there is no window trim on the inside except for the sill. Even in large expensive custom hopmes, the returns are sheetrock. It's common, it's accepted, and it's not a sign or poor workmanship or cheap houses. Just a different style.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
<<Typical yankee answer.>>
So window trim is a damned Yankee invention now, huh?
Looks like secession is the only answer, Eddie. Remember the Al-a-mo!
No, nothing wrong with window trim. But your comment that you have only seen sheetrock returns in cheap government housing only shows that your speaking from a limited exposure, and critizing methods that are different than your own."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
<<No, nothing wrong with window trim. But your comment that you have only seen sheetrock returns in cheap government housing only shows that your speaking from a limited exposure, and critizing methods that are different than your own.>>
If you scroll up to post #9 in this thread, you'll see that I subsequently recalled working on some moderate income homes in Florida, that was 1980, which had wrapped windows. They also used that method for closet door openings where bi-folds were installed. My main complaint is that it takes away a lot of the trim carpenter's work.
As a carpenter gets older, two things happen. One is that his skills grow and the other is that his body slows down. So, naturally, the older a carpenter gets the more he enjoys doing trim work. That's been the natural evolution of a carpenter's career, for many generations. The older guys move from framing to trim.
As more efficient production methods have come along, they've been adopted by many builders and develpers because those methods make their homes more profitable. That's an easily observable fact, at least for anyone who has been working as a carpenter in new home construction over the last 30-40 years. Those of you who have cut your teeth on production carpentry may consider it to be a style. And maybe it's a little snobbish of me to say that it's not but, in the end, it's your trade and your work which is suffering. You work is being taken away, yet they've got you believing that it's your generation's style.
The last big custom home I trimmed out required two skilled carpenters to work in it for about five-six weeks. A lot of time was spent on window trim. More time was spent on hanging double doors in bedroom closets. Lots of custom details like framing a surround for a big bathroom spa. This is gravy work for guys who have the skills and patience to do it. But this work isn't going to be there for you production carpenters when you get older. So what will you do when the boss replaces you with a guy in his twenties? I hope you've found some other way to earn a living because your trim work is disappearing....has disappeared already.
So you're saying while FastEddie has a job, SlowEddie might not?
;)
How do we dance while our world keeps turning? How do we sleep while our beds are burning?
I just read the entire thread and I have to agree with Ed.While wrapped jambs may not qualify as "fine" work (at least by the definition of some), it's fine enough for me. Just because window trim is available doesn't mean we have to use it. Do you criticize a room because it looks like government housing since it has no chair rail and three piece crown?If I ever build a house for myself, I think there's a good chance I will use wrapped jambs. My wife likes window treatments and if I'm going to trim out the window, I do not want the trim covered up. If I can convince her to let the window be a window, then I will do a nice stool & apron window with thick and fat casing. Otherwise, the drywall will be fine.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Sorry Eddie, I like you and I hate to say anything to anger you, but I lived in Texas for a few years and let's get real, the only reason for doing it that way is to save money. Period.
Now I will give you the argument that most people install curtains and valances that wind up covering up any trim that might be there, but bottom line, this practice was started as a way to cut costs." If I were a carpenter"
Mark , Actually as an architectural style the practice goes back to the 1930's or so . It wasn't done to save money . It was a design statement , a rebellion as it were against the ornamentation of earlier years. Go tour some fine homes from that era that were at the leading edge of design and you will see the same thing done in them . It was quite popular in the early fifties as well in brand new homes with "style"
Edited 4/8/2007 1:17 am by dovetail97128
Nothing wrong with changing styles or methods to save money ... happens all the time. I guess my point was ... the no-trim windows is a regional thing, and is not necessarily indicative of cheap housing.
All up & down the east coast, even the basic houses have real nailed hardwood floors. That's a real rarity in the southwest, wherere slab-on-grade is the norm. But you can easily lay some beautiful tile floors on that slab with no worry about deflection."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Hey Mike, I agree that wrapping is an awfully cheapskate way to do things, but since I moved to Florida about a year and a half ago this seems to be the only way everyone does it. It's kind of depressing. the other thing they do is to wrap the opening when there is a bifold door for a closet. then we (the trim carpenters) will just nail casing over the opening letting it stick into the opening about 3/4" all around. it looks tacky as heck, but I'm just a worker bee... I just have to get used to carrying the honey back and forth." If I were a carpenter"
I've been in FLA since '01 and it's one of the first things I noticed in the newer homes. I suppose it has its place, but that place is not my house. I've been remodeling my own house for about three years now, and I actually do have one passage wrapped with drywall. Wait, make that two! To my credit these openings have no doors...
I'm trying to picture the bi-fold closets, I know what they look like, but cased? I don't see too many of those. Casing cost money, you know. But you have no reveal with the casing- it just dies into thin air?
I bet it's clamshell all day long, too, right?
How do we dance while our world keeps turning? How do we sleep while our beds are burning?
Actually not clamshell, most of the homes I've been working in they use a decent profile casing, (although it's often still 2-1/4")
And yeah... no reveal, the casing actually sticks 3/4" into the opening to cover the gap between the bifold slab and the sheetrock opening. I guess one advantage is it helps cover up a badly out of square opening... which there is no shortage of around here!
" If I were a carpenter"
And who puts in the marble sills? The carp or the drywaller?
How do we dance while our world keeps turning? How do we sleep while our beds are burning?
neither, the non english speaking marble sill installer. (what, you think I'm kidding?)
" If I were a carpenter"
Mark....now that you mention building practices in Florida, I recall seeing window and bi-fold door openings wrapped as typical finish for development homes. I worked around Miami in 1980, on both custom remodeling and as a trim guy on standard, quickie development shacks. I still shake my head at the poor quality of work I was ordered to do there. Stick a prehung unit in it's opening and nail the casing. Switch sides and nail on the other three pieces. Never saw a shim...didn't exist on that job. Using a trim gun and a few brads, pre-hungs were installed in a couple of minutes.
I used to frame and align for those type installations. The way we did it, you didn't need shims because the rough opening was "fine" work. The door installer did not need a level.SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. For the life of me, I can't see why Prey feels safer from predators by disarming and emasculating Paladins.
Sam, I assume that your statement/explanation isn't meant to justify the poor craftmanship. And I'm sure you'd agree that any door jamb which isn't, at the very least, shimmed behind each hinge and the strike isn't properly installed.
the poor craftmanship. And I'm sure you'd agree that any door jamb which isn't, at the very least, shimmed behind each hinge and the strike isn't properly installed.
Actually, I think that if the entire wall/door system is set up with the idea that shims are not going to be used, that it is a stronger method than using shims.
Think about it. What is the purpose of shims, other than to plumb the jamb because the trimmer isn't, and because the whole frame was made larger than needed because no one knew the exact size of the opening? IOW, shims are the installer's way of correcting inadequate framing.
On the other hand, shims holding the jamb off the trimmer means that the door mounting screws are not in shear, but rather getting all the mounting strength from tension with a lever arm against any shear force. (I know that's not very well said. sorry.)SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. For the life of me, I can't see why Prey feels safer from predators by disarming and emasculating Paladins.
Sam,
The reason for shimming the jamb at the hinges and the strike, as well as at the head and near the floor, is to hold the jamb solidly in place so that the door will open and close properly over many years and many uses.
In the Florida example the jamb is dependent for it's stability on a few 6d finish nails, driven through clam shell casing and gypsum before it finds solid lumber...clam shell casing which is attached to the jamb by 4d brads. That's a lot of weak links to depend on, particularly when the door fit is 1/16" all around.
Another problem with the Florida example is lack of security. It takes very little force to break through a un-nailed door jamb.
The purpose of the shims is to hold the jamb in place.
That's what you're saying?
SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. For the life of me, I can't see why Prey feels safer from predators by disarming and emasculating Paladins.
Well?SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. For the life of me, I can't see why Prey feels safer from predators by disarming and emasculating Paladins.
Deep subject.
wasn't there a guy in FHB that was hanging doors without shims? My friend here in NW FL has been hanging doors without shims for 5 years, no problems. Of course, this is interior masonite doors, 356 casing and split jams. Doesn't nail jamb together either.
I did it professionally for quite a few years.
Its normally hung for the same sq at price and finished for 3.00 per stick of metal. The vinyl corners are really suitable in window locations. Definately not doors.
It hangs with end cuts that are normally scrap off other sheets . The openings are routed provideing a clean cut flush edge while the openings are back cut with a knife and rasped. Round corners are a different deal and should be charged out higher as they are held back on both sides.
Only takes about 1 minute to run a coat on a window [3/0 x 4/0] but the install of metal takes longer [5 minutes] . 10.00 per opening that size would be good money but you were trying to over price it at 40 percent which would be suhbstantially more .
Tim
Edited 4/6/2007 1:58 pm by Mooney
Did you butt the inside wrap to the window, or use a zip bead?
I like the zip bead where d/w abutts a different material, rather than a j-bead.
dave
Years ago I ran regular rock scaps to the window and didnt like that so when green board came out I used that . Then I found out about J bead and I like that the best as it gives it a thermal break. Besides its easiar to finish with the bead.
Tim
Mike,
A lot of folks like the "clean" look of drywall returns. I don't remember the last time I did one for lack of money. I have seen some crap in rental property though.
We usually attach trim tech mud on J to the window jamb, run the board out to the wall (to a good nailer), and finish the wall /jamb with a wide leg plastic L. We use durock or backer board for the sill, and sometimes the sides. My taper will pretty much finish this entirely w bond,,,,, very little mud. The idea being, if a little water ends up on the sill, it won't destroy it.
Trim Tech also makes a two piece all vinyl return.
Harry
I was thinking the same thing. I do like the "clean" look and it stays cleaner too... less dusting. A sturdy sill with the rest wrapped is nice, clean, and durable.Stu