My brothr-in-law is trying to sell his house. One of the people that came to see the house vandalized it. long story short, the downstairs bathroom ceiling is trashed. When I apply drywall tape, I apply a light coat on the wall. wet the tape, then apply enough mud to cover the tape completely. I keep it smooth, then as it is drying wet sand it keeping the surface smooth. Then I come back after it is dry to widen the patch and the tape is proud of the patch, in all its cupped and ugly glory. What do you guys do to prevent the #&&***%$+ tape from springing out of the patch? You guys are the masters at this stuff, please help.
I have been driven many times upon my knees
by the overwhelming conviction that I had
nowhere else to go.
My own wisdom, and that of all about me,
seemed insufficient for that day.
-Abraham Lincoln
Replies
Fiberglass tape
saw the fiberglass tape, but it's so thick it shines when sanding down the joint...guess I need to lighten up on my sanding, eh?
Are you wetting the tape before you place it?
If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
yeah... I run it thru a bucket of water. sometimes I place it sloppy wet, sometimes I run it thru my fingers then place it.
You are using drywall compound and not that featherlight spackle patch, aren't you?
I wouldn't disturb it while it is drying. Use progressively wider taping knives, letting each coat dry completely. The tape has to be thoroughly in contact with the underlying compound, but if you oversqueeze too much you can squeeze it all out and it won't stick.
I've never taped over glossy or oil based paint, but wonder if that's a potential problem. Maybe others would know.
Here's the basic rules:
1a. If you're applying tape to a patch, use self-stick Fibreglas¯ mesh tape right on the gyprock (no mud underneath).
1b. If you're taping new board, use perforated paper tape.
2. Use standard (not 'Light') pre-mixed gyprock compound. You are better off with a name brand than a house brand (it will likely be fresher).
3.1. Lay your first coat with a 4" knife.
3.1(a) For paper tape: Do not wet the tape. Lay it gently into a 3" wide bead of mud. Smooth it in place with a clean knife.
3.1(b) For mesh self-stick tape: Stick it over the joint and make sure there are no cords or fibres hanging off. Smooth it in place with a clean knife.
3.2 Now run the knife over the tape with a bit more mud on the blade. Hold the knife blade at 90 degrees to the seam, and the handle at about 45 degrees to the wall surface. Squeeze but not too hard. You'll get some squeeze-out at the edges of the knife unless you're in a tapered joint. You may wipe this out by coming down each side of the seam once with the knife blade held at a 45-degree angle to it (leading corner nearer the seam but not on it). Don't overwork the compound. That will make your paper buckle for sure.
4. Don't touch it while it's wet.
5. Scrape or chip off any drips, crud, or other lumps once it's dry with your knife.
6. Lay your second coat with a 14" or 16" trowel. Use enough compound to cover the seam completely and go out to both sides of the trowel. Feather out at least two feet wide on a butt joint or a patch. This means you will make three passes with the trowel: one centered, and one each side of the seam. Again, don't overwork the compound.
8. Scrape and sand once it's dry. Don't sand through till the tape reappears. Vaccuum and wipe down with a slightly dampened rag.
9. Get the bright lights on it and fill in any hollows, pinholes, scratches, etc. by wiping over it with the 4" knife.
9a. On pinholes and scratches, wipe hard and use minimum compound. You will not sand this last coat unless you screw up.
9b. If you have to fill a hollow, use a knife or trowel wide enough to bridge it completely, and don't push any harder on the blade than you have to to feather the mud to an invisible edge. (You don't want to bend the edge or you'll just get another hollow.) If you're careful and lucky, you'll only have to run the sanding block over it a couple of licks.
10. Your final check is done with your eyes closed. Feel for the joint. You shouldn't be able to find it....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Hey Dinosaur,
I really found your info helpful, and you explained it really well, but I had several other questions.
First, referring to 3.2, after you smooth the tape that you just applied, while that compound is still wet you apply a light coat over the tape? In other words you don't let your bedding coat and smoothed tape dry before you lightly recoat, correct?
Secondly, could you outline for us your method of doing inside and outside corners?
I am finishing up a laundry room remodel in my home. I haven't everdone that much drywall work and while 95% is complete or taped, I am already identifying areas of my work that need improvement. I would like to get really professional results in my work.
I had a real hard time with the corners of the room. I was using MYron Ferguesons article in FHB (sorry dont have the issue in front of me) as a guide. I can tell that I have too much buildup in the corners as the wall surface is not quite flat going into and coming out of the corner. You cant really tell visually but you can tell by feel.
Thirdly, in my corners as I try to lightly coat the tape, one side at a time, I get a crumbly rough buildup in the corner and I cant seem to smooth it out pulling down the wall. So I end up turning my knife blade parallel to the corner and pulling out of the corner.
I am using the lightweight compound and solid paper tape.
Any info you can give me will be appreciated.
Are you using paper & metal outside corners?
I have better luck doing insode corners if I do one side at a time, and let it dry before doing the oither side (after the initial bedding coat).
And you can't use light weight mud for the first bedding coat. Even says so on the label.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I used paper for inside corners and plain metal for outside corners. I used the mr green board for walls and regular 3/8 for ceiling. I am not a dry wall expert, I'm a diyer who is trying to learn and improve his workmanship and results as he goes. I was advised by the dude at Lowe's that the plus three was what I wanted. I probably should have used the all pupose jc.
I think the room looks very good for my skill level but I just had some trouble with inside corners. Everything else went pretty well. I had a heck of a time on this project because I had to make sure that I left everything functioning at the end of the day. (Due to medical needs from a member of the family)I had to leave the job each day with functioning hot and cold water, and washer and dryer, and power.
It's very difficult to drywall a 7x8 foot laundry with the washer and dryer a water heater and a furnace in the room and still try to leave minimal seams. The room was unfinished with exposed duct work and surface run wiring, and plumbing. Luckily the previous owner had put drywall behind the furnace. That was about it though, I had to redo plumbing, electrical, lighting, and insulate for sound. Also had to fix a bowed in wall due to how the idiots cut it into to two peices (sloppy plumbing) to accomodate a laundry sink which there really wasn't room for anyway.
Also the first time using the cutout tool for electrical boxes. I had to do some repair.
Any other advice would be appreciated.
Webby
Edited 9/6/2005 2:18 pm ET by webby
Edited 9/6/2005 2:20 pm ET by webby
Edited 9/6/2005 2:24 pm ET by webby
Webby, I'm with eddie----on inside corners, I do one side at a time, after I do the base coat.
If you try to do both, you always end up srewing up one side (nicks ect.) and then you gotta go back later and kill your self sanding.
Do one side on all corners, when dry, do other side of all---repeat with larger knifeWhen in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
I have one of those knives made to do inside corners and - once I learned how to use it - never have a problem with them. I use an 8" or 12" knife to lay a bed of mud on both sides of the corner, fold my tape and lightly bed it with my fingers, then make a pass with the corner knife. Works like a charm.
I have used the inside corner trowels before with limited success. If you just have like 1 or 2 corners they seem to work ok. But with the ceiling joint connecting the the wall in a corner, It seemed really hard to get at with the knife, and then whenever I did the other seam, it always seemed to booger up the one i did before ect.
Needless to say, it worked ok, but I can do a heck of a lot better job with a knife----course that is how i learned.
Outsides I never needed a corner trowel, or tried one..........outsides seems pretty easy to meWhen in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
Yeah, it took me a while to get used to a corner knife but it was worth the effort. I was pitiful when I tried to get nice corners with a regular knife - lol. Ceiling and wall corners are still a little dicey but I've finally learned that it's ok to leave them a little rough and finish up with a scraper and sandpaper.
I have an outside corner knife but haven't really used it much. 90% of my drywall work is replacing drywall around windows and doors and I prefer corner bead for those.
everything functioning at the end of the day. (Due to medical needs from a member of the family
I have that same problem when I work in my own house. If I don't leave it spotless and everything working properly, DW will beat me to a pulp.
One of your basic problems is thatv you listened to the dude at Lowe's What they have to say usually makes sense to the typical homeowner, but most pros know that they are in a different world.
Don't beat yourself up too much over drywalling a laundry room. That's a great place to start cuz it has most of the problems you'll ever encounter: limited access, inside & outside corners, cutouts for electrical and plumbing etc. And like most of us, you will see the smallest flaw and think it ruins the entire job. How does the DW like it?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
after you smooth the tape that you just applied, while that compound is still wet you apply a light coat over the tape? In other words you don't let your bedding coat and smoothed tape dry before you lightly recoat, correct?
Correct. But you can't work the seam over and over and over again. If you do, you'll screw it up and the mud will get drooly and unworkable.
Pull the mud once only, ideally; you can get away with twice if you goof the first time. Practice keeping your arm and the knife at a constant angle to the wall and move at a constant speed. Move your body down the seam, not your arm. If you move your arm at the shoulder, you'll change the angle and the thickness of the mud will change.
The bedding coat should be thin, just enough to adhere the paper. The covering coat is also thin when doing a tapered joint, but a bit thicker when doing a butt joint. For a tapered joint, you should almost/not quite see the tape through the mud before it dries. For a butt joint, the tape should be invisible. You can change up to an 8" knife for the first coat on a butt joint. (I use a 4" for taper joints.)
Secondly, could you outline for us your method of doing inside and outside corners?
Use exactly the same method as for a flat seam, but you need special tape for outside corners, and it's a lot easier if you have special corner trowels, too.
The tape you need for outside corners is a paper tape with a two-piece metal bead bonded to one side of it. It's expensive, but worth every penny. You always place the metal to the wall. The outside surface of your corner must be the paper side of the tape. If you don't do it this way, the mud will chip off the metal every time somebody looks at it crosseyed, and soon you'll have that nasty beat-to-sh!t-corner look you see too often....
For inside corners, just use regular perforated paper tape, and fold it on the score line down the middle.
There are special trowels made for taping corners; they are well worth the cost IMO. Otherwise, you will wind up having to do what a few other posters have suggested, which is to mud one side of each corner at a time...which to me is a heck of an annoying way to have to do it. I hate doing gyprock work to start with; anything (well, almost anything, LOL) that makes it go faster and easier is a bonus....
Here's a photo of two corner trowels. The one on the left is for inside corners; the other is for outside corners.
View Image
When using these types of trowels, you have to make sure you don't use so much mud covering the tape that you wind up with a lot of squeeze-out past the edges of the trowel. You will widen the joint on the second coat, using your 14" or 16" trowel to take it out to a feather edge gradually. If you try to do it all in the first coat, you'll guck it up for sure....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Hey Dinosaur, and to all thanks for the good advice. It is great to have a place like this where you can almost always get help.
Went home last night and was going to continue working on a corner seam (inside). So of course this calls for diconnecting the washer and dryer; this coat was supposed to be a finish or close to finish coat but unfortunately it is as rough as the previous. To further clarify I have been bedding my tape on both sides then recoating one side at a time. anyway, luckily it is a thin coat so there is not a whole lot of buildup. I may not be great at drywall but I think I am smart enough to not keep glopping it on when it's not workin' out.
I feel sure that the main problem I am having is coming from my overall technique. I noticed that in the absolute corner it is rough and there are small ridges of dried compound from the previoous coat. when I go to recoat, my knife scrapes those ridges adding dust and scrapings into the corner and further mucking it up. So in order to work it smooth it takes more compound leading to a bigger buildup in the corner. It is a situation sort of like filling small holes in the corner. So then I tend to turn my knife sideways, etc.
I am almost done but I will remember the corner tool for next time.
Needless to say I was feelin pretty frustrated last night because there isn't anything you can do when you have put on a coat and it is screwed up, you just have to make it as neat as you can and let it dry.
Then I came in this morning and got on line and reading your alls replies has made me feel better. Luckily this last seam is going to be partially hidden by the laundry machines and the dryer duct.
thanks for the good info and a listening ear.
Webby
Next time you have to do inside corners, I reccommend trying No-Coat Ultraflex Light.
It is a plastic corner bead with a paper face that can be used for inside or outside corners. Comes in a 100' roll. just cut to length, bend down center and apply.
It gives you a solid edge to run your knife along so you can do both sides of a corner at the same time. Get great crisp corners every time. They don't carry it at the Home Depots or Menards around here - have to get it from a drywall supplier, but, it is worth the trip.
http://www.no-coat.com
there are small ridges of dried compound from the previoous coat.
Do you sand between coats?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Hey fasteddie,
You asked me before how dw liked it? Actually it is my parents home. The room was unfinished and I am trying to help them out and complete it so they can eventually sell the house. With my mom's imobility due to MS a split level home doesn't work to well for them. With the illness and all, they don't have money to hire the work done.
Yeah, I lightly sanded, I didn't want to make to much dust.
I noticed that last night as I was trying to coat one side of a joint, the very heart of the corner is rough and when I pull my knife down on subsequent coats it knocks off some of the small ridges and roughness pulling itinto the fresh compound. Maybe I should try one of those corner tools
I lightly sanded with one of those coarse/medium sanding sponges. maybe I should have used my flat hand sander or pole sander. That probably would have helped true and flatten the corner but I didn't want to over sand.
What is your method?
Webby
Edited 9/7/2005 12:03 pm ET by webby
Edited 9/7/2005 12:11 pm ET by webby
Dave45 I thinks its just a matter of preference.......Last year, I contracted a DW job (a moonlight favor for a friend) and I used the corner knife on everything.....worked ok, but then later on I was doing a huge custom house with lots of dormers and stuff and I had lost the corner knife (ok i think a coworker "borrowed" it) so I just did it all with my 6 inch knife--------worked great.
Webby----with the corner knife you bed the tape in mud, and use a 4 or 6" knife to put mud on both sides on the joint and then do one smooth swipe with the corner knife at a 45 degree angle
What you need to do now to finish your joints is (when they are dry) take like a 8 or 10 inch knife and scrape all the ridges off. Then sand lightly with a block, and wipe off the dust.
I always apply my mud with the knife doing sideways strokes all the way down one side, then I get a little more mud on my knife and do one long smooth stroke down the entire thing with even pressure.
With a little practice you should be able to do this no prob. Sand really good and then use like a 10 inch knife with very little mud to fill in the touch up spots.
I usually start with 6" do an 8 or a 10" for second, and finish with a 12" Some guys go wider, but it depends on smooth you are. On butt joints I go almost 2 feet
Good luck!
When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
Custombuit -
You're definitely right about it being a matter of preference. There are usually several ways to do most things and we all sorta settle into whatever works best for us. My personal motto is........"Whatever works is good" - lol
About 20 yrs ago, I got a job building cabinets and display shelving for a toy store. I set up a shop in the store and went to work. One of my jobs was to frame and drywall a partition wall and the owner had a taper come in to finish it off. The guy was an absolute master!! He showed up after lunch and when he left, the wall was taped, textured, and paint ready. It would probably taken me 2-3 days to do that - and it wouldn't have been nearly as good.
One thing I've learned about taping is that it's messy..........always messy. Some of the wet mud will get slopped around and it always needs some sanding after it dries. A couple of months ago, I saw a sanding pad with an attachment for a shop vac and one of those is high on my "buy me" list. I was installing a kitchen cabinet and the guy was sanding a ceiling and wall in the next room. The whine of the shop vac was a little annoying, but there was almost no dust anywere - lol.
Yeah, I know what you are talking about on the sanding attachment.
Come to think of it, My dad used to have one I think.......I remember years ago helping him out on building a custom bathroom in a church, and he couldn't get dust all over, so he used that. Worked like a charm!
If I remember correctly, his had some type on water filter.......It was really neat---
Now I'm gonna have to call him up and see if he still has that. Maybe I can get him an idea for an 'early' Christmas gift!
-------------------------------------------------If at first you don't succeed, hit it harder next time!
The one I saw didn't have a water filter - just a place to attach a 1-1/4" vac hose. Sure made a believer out of me - lol.
Abouit the same as yours ... hack at it a while, cuss a while, hack again.
The sanding spong can work well in some situations. Why not take a little time and sand the corner smooth, then apply one final skim coat.
If you used regular mud (not setting type) you can 'sand' with a damp sponge. Takes a little practice, but it's 100% dustless.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Custombuilt pretty much covered it in his post. The main thing you're not doing that you should be is chipping off the dried crud before applying a subsequent coat. There's always going to be some squeeze-out ridges or whatever left when the first coat dries. So if you don't chip these off before applying more mud, when you pull the knife or trowel down, little nits of dried stuff bust loose and get stuck in the mud you're trying to make lie down smooth. Frustrating, to say the least.
Don't give up; it's not rocket science, just practice. And, as someone else mentioned, a laundry room is a better place to start out than the formal dining room....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Hey all,
Thanks for the good advice. I think it is definitely a matter of practice. I just don't get the opportunity to practice that much.
I am not as bad at this is some may think. Plumbing, electrical, carpentry all went well. Even the things I had never installed bwefore like a washing machine valve box all went well.
I like to do this work, wish i could full time for myself. But I can't, obviously don't have the experience. If I were 20 again I would find some guy to teach me but it is a little hard at 35, and a full time college student with loans to pay back. I did work for a guy for one summer hoping to learn but he didnt teach as well as he yelled. On the other hand when he sent me home while he taped the drywall I should have spoke up and said teach me. I have taught myself about everything I know.
Live and learn.
Again, thanks for the help and have a great day.
Webby
If I were 20 again I would find some guy to teach me but it is a little hard at 35,
That's conventional-thinking crapola, pal. If you want to do it, figure out a way to make it work for you. Maybe the traditional route of working for somebody else and getting hollered at by him isn't your idea of a good learning experience.
Maybe you need to learn on your own...and holler at yourself....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Dino is right. Think of another way. For example, you have to live somewhere, right? Buy a cheap fixer-upper, maybe even in a not-so-great neighborhood, so long as it's cheap. Then, fix it up as you can, without pressuring yourself as to time.
(This assumes you are single, or connected to somebody with a sense of adventure.)
By the time you get done, with all the good advice from BTers, you will know how to do everything, & your house will have appreciated to the point where either you love it & want to stay, or you can sell it & go on to the next one. Life is too short not to figure out how to do what you love, even if you have to do stuff to survive along with it. (This is advice from your granny Kate, who learned how to do everythinh from the Time-Life Home Repair and Improvement series, before she discovered the Taunton Empire...)
If you can't manage to buy, find a dump to rent, & make a deal with the landlord to fix it up in exchange for a break on the rent, although there will be more pressure to produce faster that way.
Thanks everyone.
Once school is out of the way I have some plans i.e. the fixer upper, and work for friends.
I do some work for friends and family now, but nothing I can really charge for it's basically for experience.
In WV where I am they don't offer a Bachelor of Architecture degree so now I am completing associates degrees in Computer Aided Drafting and Architectural Construction Technology.
I also would like to get a small shop up and going for woodworking and furniture projects sort of like Norm Abrams does, antique repro's and shaker furniture.
Thanks a gain every one.
It's lunchtime.
Webby
Way to go, Webby - @ 35 you are just a kid!
Heres a quick easy and effective way to do a patch.
Its called in my neck of the woods, a "blow out patch".
Cut the hole to be repaired square and even with a rock saw.
Measure the square exactly. Take a piece of rock and mark the "back" of it the size of the square you cut. Score your marks with a knife and crack it but dont break it all the way off....peel the gypsum part and the attached back off the front paper so you're left with just the paper around the four sides. A four sided flap.
Mud around your hole in the ceiling and squeese the blow out patch in...use your knife to squeeze out the mud under the flaps. Let it dry over night and mud over it two more times on two separate days unless you use a fast drying spackle.
Did that sound too confusing??? MAybe someone else can say it better.
Be a hole in the wall
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
then as it is drying wet sand it keeping the surface smooth.
Are you saying that you try to wet sand the first coat of mud before it has completely dried? That sounds like it's probably a big contributor to your mess.
Now you have to tell the story. How did a potential buyer trash the ceiling?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
OK here is the story I was told. The owner of the house, (my wife's youngest brother) has already moved to take a teaching position out of state. A potential buyer came to the house and made an offer on the house nearly 15 grand lower than the listed price. When asked why, they stated that was all the house was worth considering the damage to the downstairs bathroom. The listing agent rushed to the house and the sink in the upstairs bathroom was running slowly and the drain in the sink was plugged and overflowing onto the floor. Can't prove it was the same people, but several things point their way. If you can't afford a house, isn't finding a home you can afford the appropriate thing to do? I beleive when you violate the rules of simple decency, your violation comes back around on you in a hurry. Some people just suck...
Thanks all for your suggetions. I replaced the drywall in the ceiling, used the fiberglass tape (which worked really well) and mudded the ceiling out about a foot from the seam. The listing agent reqested popcorn on the new ceiling, and we added crown molding to make it better than it was when we started. I hope the owner gets what he is asking, he is an olympic athlete and needs the dough to pay for a trip to compete in budapest.
I have been driven many times upon my kneesby the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go.My own wisdom, and that of all about me,seemed insufficient for that day.
-Abraham Lincoln
Others have described good ways to fix the drywall damage, but I'm wondering if prospective buyers are being allowed to roam around the house unsupervised. If your brother-in-laws agent has a lock box on the house, he/she is responsible for the security of the house.
Has anyone been in the house to do repair work? I often do work for listing agents and am there alone. I'm pretty paranoid about it, too - lol
I had the same queation about the damage. How doid the buyer have unrestricted unsupervised acces to the house? If the agent let them in, then the agent is on the hook for the damages.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I'm glad it worked well for you.
I would not have put a texture on a bathroom ceiling because that makes it uncleanable.
hi all, i am drywalling my basement and have first coated three rooms, I have ferguson's drywall book in which it says to apply the compound about 1/4" thick on factory seams to embed the paper tape. However, when i do this I cant seem to get the excess compound out and then have a hell of a time applying the second coat.....it seems to work better when i only put about a 1/8" or less .....any opinions? A 1/4" seems to thick, specially when you are trying to see the joint to center the tape. Asked a drywalling contractor, his opinion was a 1/4" was too thick and you should only apply enough as not to have any dry spots.
Dan
I have ferguson's drywall book in which it says to apply the compound about 1/4" thick on factory seams to embed the paper tape.
Wow! 1/4", really? 2 layers of that and you don't even need the drywall. You're just making it as you go.
Even 1/8" is pretty thick. I never measured, but I probably use less than 1/16" per layer. For example, the taper on the factory edge is recessed less than 1/8" at the deepest part and I use at least 3 coats to bring it flush.
I don't know who this "Ferguson" is and I don't tape/spackle full-time, but either you misunderstood the book or Fergy knows naught.
-Don
I too thought danz was mistaken, so I found my copy of Drywall - Professional techniques for walls and ceilings by Myron Ferguson, published by Taunton. Page 66-67: "A thin even layer of compound about 1/4" thick is all that you need". and "When you've finished the seam, the joint compound should be about 3/16" thick in the center and 8 in wide from one tapered edge to the other." AQnd that's the first bedding coat. He also promotes mesh tape for the joints.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Next time your running your tape on the first coat, try using a Banjo . Think their still under $70. Works much better than the hand method.