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I’m helping a contractor drywall part of my house (remodel job). It’s all 1/2 inch, in some places over exisiting 1/4″ panelling nailed and glued over 1/2″ sheetrock and in others to the bare studs. In all cases it’s going up to existing popcorn finished cathedral ceilings.
Now to my questions. First he is not using tape in the corners. Claims that with the sheetrock we’re laying up being real tight in the corners (and it is, gaps 1/8″ or less)) we dont need to tape just mud. He is using tape on all other seams. Second, he is getting the rock as close to the ceiling as possible and filling in with either mud for larger (say 1/2″) gaps or caulk. This to save me the expense of scraping the popcorn, taping and feathering and reappling popcorn or refinishing the ceilings. Third, he insists that we use 1 5/8″ fine thread sheetrock screws for all applications as opposed to coarse thread and/or 1 1/4″ for to the studs.
He is a very hard worker and otherwise appears very conciencious and isn’t trying to rip me off but these techniques are different to what I’ve seen other contractors use and I wondered wnat you think of them! I’ve talked to him about these things and he claims they are common practice. He knows that I don’t intend to stay here forever so is he giving me quick fixes?
Thanks in advance.
Replies
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Joint compound alone does not have much strength. Without tape in the corners you will get cracks. The tape strengthens the joint and helps join the two panels together. If he is taping all the other joints why not the corners and the ceiling? My guess is to save time. These joints tend to be a slower go. Coarse threaded screws are better for wood, fine threads for metal. The coarse threaded screws also go in a tad faster by the way. However, I have seen quite a few panels that have been fastened with fine thread screws into wood and they are still hanging. Even so, us the coarse.
My question is with the ceiling, if the expense of a re-do on the popcorn job doesn't bother you then why don't you insist he do it right?
*No tape in the corners means the mud will crack. As far as the screws are concerned, it really doesn't matter whether it's coarse or fine, I personally use 1 5/8" coarse screws with a Milwaukee screw gun. In your case, your guy should even use longer screws for the stacked layers areas, like 2" screws. Now based on your post, I sense conflicting undercurrents, and I wonder how much of an influence a bit of miscommunication could have on your "contractor" to feel the need to cut corners. I am not familiar with this 'no-tape/caulking/quick fix method' and I am sure it will appear unethical to quite a few as well. I strongly suggest you affirm what you want done, for I assume you came to this post because you are having a problem the work in progress. Paint can hide a lot of things, but do you have to hide anything if you don't need to?fv
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View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Let's get over with this: THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR ANY CONSCIENTIOUS CONTRACTOR TO SUGGEST NOT DOING THINGS RIGHT.Corners are taped as a rule and some codes enforce that. We honor these codes and more, because we don't only build, we create.fv
*I've switched to caulking corners in the rentals was do. I thought I was on to something new, till I read over and over again, no-tape corners were all the rage in commercial construction. Alot of what starts there, filters down to res-remodeling. I've found caulked corners to hold up as well, if not better than tape/mud. They just have a slightly rounded look, much like real plaster. I've also used fast-n-final light wieght spackel on alot of repair jobs, where not disturbibg the ceiling was a high priority. I wouldn't use regular joint compound, can't get it to not crack. That spackel works great. The only thing I see odd is the insistance on fine thread screws. Coarse for wood, fine for metal. But, maybe he has his reasons. The other thing that jumps out at me is....you are helping. Why, to save money? And is that also why no full demo? My point, you wanted a "make due" job.........sounds like you are getting a "make due" job. Want better.....spend more! Me, I'd caulk the corners, and spackel the ceiling. Or pony up the bucks, tear it all out, and tape everything. Jeff
*Gentleman, thank you. Let me respond to you individually. Carl, in fairnes to the contractor I raised the issue of the expense of scrapeing and redoing the ceiling and asked for his advice. This is his solution but if isn't going to bear up as he claims then I need to know that so that I have a complete set of infornmation on which to make decisions. So thank you for your advice.Francis thank you also for your responses. There are no undercurrents that I'm aware of. We have a good and open relationship, I just wanted to get some third party advice so that in talking to him I'm not coming solely from my opinion. If I touched a nerve in my innocence I'm sorry.Joe, see my comments to Francis and I think that answers your "comment". Not sure where you're coming from but I don't post trick questions. Not knowledgeable enough (obviously) to do that!Jeff, yup! money can be a concern! But I'm trying to achieve a reasonable balance and at the same time put something of myself into this project, a sense of achievement if you like. Thank you also.
*Let us know which way you go, and how it turns out. Jeff
*Thanks for the feedback. No nerve was damaged (hmmm...). I was somewhat concerned about being taken into something that would lead nowhere. Occasionally someone starts doing a bit of maneuvering behind the contractor's back, and it can sometimes appear like a form of sabotaging. You are obviously coming from a sound place and I wish you the best with your final decision.fv
*Flat tape the corners
*Just curious... Why didn't you know what techniques he was going to do BEFORE the job started? Seems like you would have discussed all of this with him BEFORE the job started, and then if you had questions about the practice or technique, you could have found out some information and then had a talk with him.If you trusted the contractor to do the job the right way, in a professional manner, and for a reasonable price before the job started, why are you not so confident about his abilities/knowledge now?Inquiring minds want to know...James
*GeoffM. Thanks for the feedback but James is right. It seems that your horse is midstream and heading towards the other shore as we speak. As you say money is a concern of yours and it appears you are trying to save some. I don't blame you for that. But you also say his techniques are different from other contractors you have seen. Obviously there is a standard. He is deviating from the standard to save you money. You know this and initially accepted his judgment. ("This to save me the expense of scraping the popcorn, taping and feathering and reappling popcorn or re finishing the ceilings.") Accept the fact that you have a guy who as you say ("is a very hard worker and otherwise appears very conciencious.") but is cutting some corners to save you some cash. Best of Luck.
*When perhaps a wall might be "temporary" or if texture of ceilings or walls are a concern, I'll L-bead those corners for a nice crisp line and perhaps caulk the crack. For a permanent room or for a perfect job, would probably opt for taping and dealing with the texture. Don't just caulk short or rough cut board. It telegraphs through and looks half-assed. Best of luck.
*As far as no tape against the lid it sounds right to me. I'm in the pick-up/customer service business in Southern California area and work with all the big drywall outfits. Whenever we go up a wall with new board and are not re-texturing the lid we use one of two aproaches: a) Cut off feather edge of board very straight and clean for horizontal runs or full edge factory cut against lid with vertical seams. After texture of wall the joint gets a healthy caulk bead.b) If wall height is 8 foot and horizontal runs are preferred (normal), we mesh tape the new board's feather edge and float it out flush. Then texture and a healthy caulk bead.Your only option would require attempting to match the existing lids texture and that is very time cunsuming and never works well. We allways avoid trying to match lid texture and when we have to it is best to float and re-shoot the entire room's lid right off the bat cause that is what we end up doing to satisfy the homeowner eventually in many cases. Why aren't you scraping old popcorn off and re-texturing the ceilings in the first place?As far as fine thread vs coarse I am not sure, unless paneling is the reason.
*GeoffM, I've used the caulking trick against a stucco ceiling before and has worked great. Done about 3-4 years ago (retrofit wall to make a closet bigger) and cannot see any difference from rest of room.Jeff Buck, caulking in the corners? sounds too good to be true?? tell me more please I hate taping and mudding corners.The above of course is only my opinion, but what do i know I'm a lurking newbie.Scott
*Scott.....now don't go jumping off that bridge just 'cause I did! Remember, I'm the one that got yelled at for saying to thin joint compound with liqiud dish soap! Can't quite remember the theory as to why not......something about the world exploding or similar consequences. That said......it works fine! Both the soap and the caulk. Granted, for a top notch job, I still paper tape the corners. But, I started using caulk on jobs where we had one old plaster wall, and one new drywall wall. No way to float the tape...at least nothing that looked good to my eye. So, I started butting and scribing the drywall tight....real tight....and a near perfect fit.....then back cut the paper face slightly with a new/sharp utility knife blade....and caulk. Very little caulk is used, just enough to bond on each surface, and after a finger wipe....a slight curve in the corner. Paint as normal.....and looks great. Next step was the gaps left when wall of plaster was demo'd and drywalled. This leaves a gap at the wall/ceiling line. Due to the fact the plaster is uneven in thickness, and usually thicker than the 1/2 drywall we use. So, the spackle and a lot of practice with the knife will make that disappear. The third step was drywall to drywall corners....no tape, just caulk. We do alot of rental rehab work for a steady customer.....doesn't care how it get's done....just don't waste time or money....and in the end he's a picky SOB! So, that situation has let me experiment a few techiniques. And the caulk works fine. Only difference....you have to cut and fit the drywall ALOT tighter than if using tape and mud. The tape/mud can hide a crappy board install.....the cualk will amplify it. ......so for those who say it's the easy way out.....screw-U! It is the difference between taking time to fit the drywall....VS....taking time to mud/tape the corners. I'm very good at finishing drywall......but I hate it! So, I prefer pretending I'm working with wood.....fitting the drywall as I would wood.....then just caulking the corners. I hit all the other seams with tape and mud first. After it's all dry and sanded and finished.....I clean up any taped areas at the corner with the knife, shop vac it clean....then run the caulk. Thought I was on to something new.....till a commercial rocker said they'd been doing it for years......the new joint compound in a caulking tube is a by-product....but I prefer regular painter caulk. Then I stumbled across a few articles backing up the comm. rocker. It's not for all jobs......sometimes that crisp/clean line in the corners is needed....but for most other situations.....give it a try. And a good caulk job, is far better than a bad mud/tape job any day. So, if yer corners aren't crisp/clean 99% of the time.....think about it even sooner! Jeff
*James and Carl. You both make good points and all I can say is that the contractor is known locally, comes well recommended and is an aquaintance of mine. We agreed that he would work on an hourly basis with me providing most of the grunt labor and learning in the process. I believe that he is operating from a firmly held belief not from some Machivellian motive and, given our agreement, did not (perhaps unwisely) question too closely at the outset. Now that I have more info, thanks to you and others, it's not too late to revise my thinking and bite some financial bullets! As I tried to make clear, my (limited) experience was that all seams were taped so it took me by surprise when the corners of the only room done so far weren't. On the other hand I'd rather trust but verify than be so distrusting as to check every detail and have them committed to paper before putting a trowel on the sheetrock. Naive perhaps but I'm happy that way.
*GeoffM, just a comment about putting "something of myself into this project".... I am contracting my own house and started reading this board just before we got underway. One thing I picked up on real quick is that contractors don't like to have the owners "too" involved in their work. I can understand that, and though I've kept a close eye on what's going on, I pretty much stay away when I have someone onsite working. I too want to "put something of myself into this project" but have chosed instead to do those things that I can do alone -- if I do it right fine, if not, no one to blame but myself.From what I've learned talking with folks here, and to my own subs, trying to be a "helper" is a no-win situation.
*GeoffM. Again, best of luck with your project.
*Jeff,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Jeff,I have caulked corners and ceiling lines too.. You are correct, if you take the time to "fit" the drywall, no problems. I have done it mostly in remodel stuff, like adding french doors to an existing opening or adding a wall with knock-down texture. I don't mind taping the ceiling line when its popcorn but knock-down is a tough match.Although I won't use painters caulk, I use PolySeamSeal, I like the fact that it an adhesive caulk.Steven
*I'll keep and eye out for that stuff. I just use the ALEX Latex Caulk. You try the "Joint Compound" in a caulk tube yet? I found it too gristly/sandy. Couldn't figure how to mix the soap into that little tube! Jeff
*Joe, you make me laugh!fv
*Jeff,I have used compound in a tube. You're right it is gritty. The only place I see a use for it is drywall touch up like nailpops or dings. If I have anything more than that I like to mix 5 or 20 minute mud. It dries REAL fast and can be painted in the same trip.How bout you take an empty caulk tube, fill it with soap, take your tube of compound, put them both in an epoxy gun and squirt both out at the same time!!!I think I'm on to something here, keep it a secret...Steven
*I'll admit I'm not afraid to try something new. I have two closets I'm going to build during the end of next week so I'm going to use adhesive Permaflex chalk around the ceiling and see how it looks.
*Just a follow-up to my last post. I do mostly residential work. In talking with clients about a job, they frequently say "do what you would do in your own house". So with respect to my closet building job next week, I hope no one is offended if I keep my roll of tape handy if I don't like the way the bead of chalk looks.
*It sure wouldn't offend me, if I didn't like the results, I would tape too.Steven
*I'm in the caulking is Ok group with a few warnings.No untaped tapered edges.Close scribing down to 3/32" or less; up to an 1/8" perhaps on popcorn.Backcaulking is a good start.Never use this technique in combination with wet or green studs.Metal framing and against old work seem to work best.Wet sponge to feather caulk bead onto board, i don't dry caulk this application.Popcorn lids to new rock this is the only way to go.joe d
*Any piece of drywall that is not taped will develop a crack. Thus the reason for tape. Caulking is a tempoary fix. When the caulk dries & hardens it will crack. You going to round your inside corners with caulk? There is a reason for fine and course threaded screws.
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I'm helping a contractor drywall part of my house (remodel job). It's all 1/2 inch, in some places over exisiting 1/4" panelling nailed and glued over 1/2" sheetrock and in others to the bare studs. In all cases it's going up to existing popcorn finished cathedral ceilings.
Now to my questions. First he is not using tape in the corners. Claims that with the sheetrock we're laying up being real tight in the corners (and it is, gaps 1/8" or less)) we dont need to tape just mud. He is using tape on all other seams. Second, he is getting the rock as close to the ceiling as possible and filling in with either mud for larger (say 1/2") gaps or caulk. This to save me the expense of scraping the popcorn, taping and feathering and reappling popcorn or refinishing the ceilings. Third, he insists that we use 1 5/8" fine thread sheetrock screws for all applications as opposed to coarse thread and/or 1 1/4" for to the studs.
He is a very hard worker and otherwise appears very conciencious and isn't trying to rip me off but these techniques are different to what I've seen other contractors use and I wondered wnat you think of them! I've talked to him about these things and he claims they are common practice. He knows that I don't intend to stay here forever so is he giving me quick fixes?
Thanks in advance.