Hi all,
Some cowboy duct workers cut through the double top plate in two locations on an addition I’m building. They didn’t notch it they just cut it right out, 13″ worth.
Has anyone run into this before? I’m sure a piece of steel bolted across it is fine, but I can see the inspector asking me to get an engineer to sign off on it. I haven’t seen anything about it in the code.
Thanks in advance!
Tom
Replies
Pretty common with 2x4 plates. Our duct guys used to tack things back together with steel plates. Not sure what the other option is when running a 3 1/2 in. duct through a 2x4 wall?
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
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Thanks for the quick reply Andy,On most additions I've done the ducts were run through closets etc.
These guys are working for the home owner so I just came on the job today and it was done. I think it would call for more than a flexible piece of sheet metal. If they stick something like that up I'll probably replace it or cover it with at least 1/16" x 3" steel.Kind of brings up the whole issue of what role the double top plate
plays in general. Given, it supports joists above but what about its role in tieing together the structure? I suppose any racking or shear is supposed to be taken care of by the sheathing. Does the double or for that matter single top plate serve any other function?TomYou Don't Know.
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As you mention the sheathing often can take the place of the plates.What kind of exterior sheathing do you have?Double top plates are unnecessary if you have your framing stacked. They are used because of ignorance (both the framer and the customer) tradition, and unavailability of 94-1/8" studs in many areas.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"Double top plates are unnecessary if you have your framing stacked. They are used because of ignorance (both the framer and the customer) tradition, and unavailability of 94-1/8" studs in many areas."Why is the framer Ignorant? There's no such thing as an Ignorant Framer..........;-)I gather you frame with one top plate and 94-1/8" studs.Where do you land your joints, over a stud or in between two studs? What do you do?Joe Carola
Joe,I've never framed with 94-1/8" studs but you can get them here. The majority of the framing that we do is for additions and the "fog of war" (as Mike Smith would put it) generally messes up any intentions of worrying about stacking your framing.If I were framing new homes I would be interested in using single top plates, assuming the public didn't misconstrue that as a sign of poor quality. I know a lot of guys who make sure to stack their framing and use double top plates, which seems like a waste to me.>>>>"Where do you land your joints, over a stud or in between two studs? What do you do?"I would place the joints between the studs and use a block to reinforce the joint. I wouldn't want to put too much faith in 2x4's spliced over a stud, there just doesn't seem to be enough meat to make a solid connection.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I think you and Jon are right about the sheathing tieing the structure together. For interior walls, it's the floor and ceiling framing the keeps things togther.
Even running a 3 in. soil line through any plate, 4 in. or 6 in., pretty much destroys its integrity. It's no wonder houses were better in the days of outdoor plumbing and no central heat.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Jon and Andy,The sheathing is OSB, and I am scrupulous about correct nailing.
I rarely do single top plates as I usually have to accomodate ducting and plumbing and therefore cannot always stack every joist above every stud.What I'm planning on doing here is using lag bolts and plate about 30" long to span the cuts.TomYou Don't Know.
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I would use a pair of Simpson MSTC28's to sandwich the sides of the top plates.There are longer straps (40, 52, 66, 78) for overkill.
You won't need lags. Just follow the recommended nailing pattern.
Iron dog, just about every house here in Michigan has it's plates hacked out in some way, shape, or form.
They require a light guage strap to tie the two walls together. There really isn't any tension, nor compression. I would make sure there is windbraces on both side of the cut if you have foam on the walls instead of osb. If you have osb, then a light guage strap is okay. The sheet metal guys put them up themselves around here.
blue
Back Charge.
My understanding is the purpose of the double top plate is to tie together wall sections where they meet at corners and partition walls. In mid-wall sections they contribute little or no overall strength. Unles the cut is near a corner , I would not expect a problem.
The cuts are about 4 feet from the corners and this is a small addition.
2 stories about 15 x 15. I'm not really worried about it structurally after some steel or strapping is added. I do worry about the inspector making a fuss.
But I don't know of any code specs regarding this. TomYou Don't Know.
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Had the same thing happen on my house (on an interior LB wall). Talked it over with the inspector and settled on a piece of 1/4" steel strapping to tie things back together. No engineer required, but that obviously will depend on the inspector.
Edited 9/20/2005 9:47 am ET by Caleb
Your building location should dictate the fix for your situation.
In some places the engineer of record would be required to spec the fix.
If you think about the forces acting on a structure, you can be assured that any one component will be subject to compression, tension and torsion, sometime in rapid succession.
A missing component, such as an entire top plate section, can/will disrupt the integrity of the structure and the function of the whole.
That one section is now dependent on the shear strength of fasteners thru the sheathing as well as the ability of the sheathing to resist. Lacking the rigidity of a continuous plate, that area can flex back and forth in all directions, enlarging nail holes, tearing wood fibers and conceivably cause structural failure.
This being a two storey structure compounds the problem, presenting a larger area to the elements and increasing the effects of leverage.
Ralph,
I agree with your assessment of the situation and that over time, having a gap in the double top plate could affect the structure negatively. The good thing is that this is not a completely freestanding structure as it is built in a corner attatched to the existing home and another addition I built earlier for the neighbors.I'll let everyone know what the inspector thinks when I bring him through next week.Thanks for everyones thoughts and suggestions!TomYou Don't Know.
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I don't know about code in this situation, but is seems to me that I would be concerned about the walls staying straight no matter what the fix. Since your at a corner where the wall and ceiling meet, why not use some kind of angle, perforated or solid, and lag it to the plate. Or through bolt it if necessary.
If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
Hi all,
I can understand the structural implications of cutting the top plates.
What I can't understand is running a 3 1/2 inch duct in an exterior wall. You must really get a blast of hot or cold air, depending on the season, when the blower kicks on.
Todd
Hi Todd,In this case there are no interior walls per se. One duct runs against a party wall and is therefore protected from heat/cold.The one on the outside wall does have insulation around it.T.You Don't Know.
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I've seen this on a pretty regular basis in my corner of the world, but it doesnt concern me all that much. If the frame is stacked, there's a ceiling joist over the stud, nailed to the plate, locking the wall top every 16". the sheathing is certainly adequate ( if nailed properly ) to lock the wall together side-to-side. If at the first floor seam, there should also be a rim joist locking it together on top; if it's at the roof line, theres the roof sheathing as well. Reminds me of some debates we used to have about the best way to piece ridges when framing a roof. My preference has alwars been to land the seam halfway on a rafter, my mentor preferred to end it between two and put a 3/4" ply scab on both sides.The bottom line is- if you were using trusses, ther wouldn't BE a ridge at all, which makes it a pretty moot point.I don't see any difference with the wall issue. The wall is locked in in both directionswithin 16". I have never re-inforced one of these joints at all, and I've never seen a bowed wall, or a crack in the plaster as a result.
As to the ignorance of framers who use doubles, I got a little hot when I read that. I know what the code says, but in walls with 3 or 4 16 foot sections, I DO think that the double locks the wall together much better and resists movement until the ceiling is rolled, etc. To be honest, the only framers I've seen use the single plate method are the same ones that use crap foam board for sheathing, on big tract developments. The quality guys around this area must all be as ignorant as me.
Bing
Have never seen it in an exterior wall,neither.
Ceiling or floor, or interior wall but never an exterior.
BTW. 93" pre-cuts here.
If it were easy....a caveman could do it.
I DO think that the double locks the wall together much better and resists movement until the ceiling is rolled, etc.
How much holding power do you need to hold something together till the ceiling is rolled?!!! Two nails seems like plenty to me.
I haven't seen a 94 1/4 stud for many years, but I do remember when we'd get them for every job. The houses are still standing just fine thank you.
In those days, all the outside bearing walls used double plates and the inside non-bearing walls used the single plate construction. Of course, we didn't lap the single plate onto the outside wall....which is actually better and stronger.
Yes, I just said it....if you are lapping your interior plates onto the outside walls, you are building a crappier house!
I can easily prove it.
blue
No need to get snotty........You're the one who used the term "ignorant".
I don't lap the interior plates onto the ext. wall...and I do the single plate method on my interior non-bearing walls. Not sure what part of the world you're in, but here, we strap the ceiling, so the int. walls are 3/4 shorter than the ext, bearing walls. The only interior walls I lap the double on are the bearing walls, and I was taught, (and believe) that racking walls straight with a diagonal and locking them in with double holds better than a brace.
What 2 nails are you talking about? When I build a bearing wall on the deck and sheath it first, I leave the sheathing down from the top so the sheathing on the second floor laps the rim and the top of the wall. If I'm using single plate, what keeps plates from separating? Some crappy temporary scab? ok.
You have your way, I have mine."thank you" and I've seen a lot more crooked single plate walls than doubles. (not that yours are) Its symptomatic of cheaper houses, that's all(generally, not exclusively)
my .02
Bing
You're the one who used the term "ignorant".
Really? Where?
If I'm using single plate, what keeps plates from separating?
What forces are trying to separate the plates?
I've seen a lot more crooked single plate walls than doubles.
If a framer has the tendency to use crooked plates for singles, they'll also have the same tendency to use crooked plates for doubles. Either way, it's not something that a semi-competent framer would do.
blue
I was the one who used the term "ignorant".The first section of your post supports the theory that a double top plate is unnecessary.And then you say that those who don't use a double are hacks???
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,Do you really think that saying framers who use double plates are ignorant was necessary?Joe Carola
Joe,I did not mean to say that the reason double top plates are used is because of ignorance. I was listing reasons why single top plates are not utilized more often. One of those reasons is ignorance (along with tradition and lack of availability).Do you always stack your framing?If so then do you use double top plates?If not, why not?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
We don't have 94-1/8" inch studs. We use 92-5/8" precuts with the double top plates and the bottom shoe that gives us 97-1/8" once your all done.If we framed with one top plate using our 92-5/8" precuts we would have from the deck 95-5/8" to the top plate. Now put your sheetrock on your ceiling if your using 1/2" and you have 95-1/8". So now you have to cut all your sheetrock for the walls.For 9' walls 104'5/8" precuts and 10' walls 106-5/8" precuts so using top plates is neI don't sheath my walls on the deck, we nail the shoe down not using straight 2x4's to the deck on all our snapped out lines and run our two top plates using all straight 2x's around the whole house first with all joints being overlapped by the second of the two top plates with a minimum of 3'. I lap all walls interior and exterior. We mark everything and then we pull all our walls back, 40' walls 60' walls in one piece and then we frame the walls and stand them up.When I have all my shoes and plates done with all the laps I then pull the two longest walls back first with the second plate in 3-1/2" (2x4 wall) or 5-1/2" (2x6 wall)on each corner and stand them up with a triple corner stud at each end.Now my short walls have the laps sticking past the width of the long walls with a stud nailed to each end and then we frame the walls and then lift them up and the laps fall into place and I nail the end studs into the triple corner studs and and one brace in the middle and walk away.Once all outside walls are up I frame all the perpendicular walls standing them up with their top laps locking into place on the outside walls holding the walls in place. So once you raise the walls the laps holding everything in place you walk away and build the next wall while someone nails the bottoms in.So for me we have to use double top plates. A single top plate makes no sense to me.I stack all my framing unless we have 12" centers but that still doesn't get me anywhere with a single top plate unless the precut was 94-1/8".It's something that I've always done and everyone else does and is on every blueprint but that doesn't mean I wont ever change. If they come out with a 94-1/8" precut and spec out one top plate I'll frame that way but until then it's going to be two top plates.You'll laugh at this one. Today I started an addition that was supposed to be TJI-230 series @ 12" centers 16'9" span but the lumber yard doesn't stock those and gave us GP WI-40 series instead and the Architect said that those I-joists weren't compatible with the TJI's so I have to put these joists @ 8" oc.I wasn't going to argue because the GC said to go for it and his HVAC guy said it would be alright.Joe Carola
Edited 9/21/2005 6:52 pm ET by Framer
That should be solid floor at least. The sheathing will span only 5.5"!
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I didn't say that people who don't double their walls are hacks. I said "generally, not exclusively". And no, I don't have a problem with the double being cut out in a circumstance where it's the best or only place to put a duct. Big difference between cutting a section 16" long out and eliminating the double for the length of the wall.
What forces are acting on the wall? How about torsion and shear when standing them up? How about wind?
I think some other posters have clarified in terms of pre-cut studs (although I don't use them) being set up for a double plate also.
Wish I knew everything at 25
Bing
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=63339.20>>>"To be honest, the only framers I've seen use the single plate method are the same ones that use crap foam board for sheathing, on big tract developments. The quality guys around this area must all be as ignorant as me."Bing, I read the above paragraph as you saying that those who use single top plates are not quality guys. Maybe I read it wrong but that's how I interpret that paragraph.>>"What forces are acting on the wall? How about torsion and shear when standing them up? How about wind?"I agree that standing walls with a single top plate is more of a challenge but my experience has been primarily using men to lift the walls (as opposed to jacks or machine) so I don't often have to worry about 30' of wall being upsupported while being stood up. You could place a man at every splice to keep the wall straight.I'm not really sure how much effect a double top plate will have when trying to deal with wind loads. I would think that a metal tie plate would have just as much effectiveness, but I could be missing something.>>>"Wish I knew everything at 25."Well, I guess I did not know that you had to be 40+ to contribute to a conversation about framing. By the way, your math is a little suspect.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Yeah, that was a little pissy. My bad.
If you're standing walls with guys, I reckon you could keep them fairly tight with someone at each joint. I've used jacks for so long, it's how I tend to picture things. I do still think it's a better way to lock the wall together till done, but I guess different methods is what makes the world go round. Builders trying new things is how we come up with better and faster ways.I must say, though, I'm not too enamored with a lot of the stuff in the new issue on energy eff. framing. I've never seen a 2x6 wall 2' o.c. that didn't have waves in it, whether osb or fir ply. Don't care much for 2 piece corners or drywall clips either. But..........there's nothing that says I have to do it that way, so I'll keep doing it the way I was taught until I'm either comfy with a new way or I don't have a choice in the matter. The guy I learned the bulk of what I know from is a hard- headed German ( with a flawless reputation) who resisted using plywood when it went mainstream, and used 1x12 pine boards for sheathing for years after everyone had switched. Still won't use osb for anything. Unfortunately, I'm somewhat like him in some ways............................Trying to get better at keeping an open mind.............
Sorry for the age comment. You have the same right as anyone to post your opinion here, and that was out of line.The fact that you're here is probably proof that you have pride in what you do, and want to learn all you can.
Bing
Studs are 92 5/8 around here. 3" for the LB top plates makes the total 95 5/8 and 1 1/2" for the bottom plate is 97 1/8" overall. The duct guys must have been taking their final plumbing exam. Tyr
The top plates are a necessary part of the wall diaphram if one must consider earthquake loading or any other lateral load that may be particular to your local. When the engineering calculations are made, it is presumed that there will be a unbroken top plate. (Actually there must be an unbroken border around the entire perimeter.) The sheathing will not substitute at least in the calcs. Yea, there are a lot of homes built that way and they haven't fallen down yet. But some have. Do you (do any of you) want your name on one of those. I'd advise that you check with a local engineer for a fix.