Hello All,
I am looking for Ideas to keep the nice new framing that I will be installing from rotting again. (See Pics)
We already have a gutter planned for the upper roof, but I want to do everything possible to channel any water away from the wall. I will of course, be using proper flashing techniques (Protecto Wrap & Sill pan).
I was wondering if Ice & Water shield on the entire wall plane was a bad idea, or one of the spray on vapor barriers by dupont would be suitable.
Any thoughts from the pros for this?
Thanks
David
Replies
Heres another picture to get the overall idea.
Move the window, or replace that window with a smaller one.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
My first thought on seeing those, is "Oh My God, what idiot designed this to place a window right there!?!?!"
Really!
If you have to keep it there for some reason, use an angle kickout flashing to direct water away from the wall and into the gutter, then be very carefull about flashing each step of the way installing the window.
As far as I&W on the whole wall, what kind of siding is it? Fibrecement can proably handle that
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Yep, that was exactly my first thought as well when I saw it. Neat part about it, this model of tract home is repeated throughout the neighborhood.
I already have a kickout diverter and gutter in the works. But the exposure of the house means this upper roof will collect enough snow to overcome that, causing the snow to melt onto the problem wall. The existing siding is that cheap masonite stuff, but I can certainly go back with fiber cement on that wall. It would match well enough in texture.
My concern with the grace I&W is vapor transmission. I've seen Grace used in the wrong application, and it caused mold because water vapor couldn't escape the wall assembly.
I did reccommend to the HO to eliminate the window, but they are adamant to keep it, and I like the challenge.
Tend to agree w/ Piffin ... kick out flashing to direct it away from the wall/roof intersection and into a gutter. Depending on the exposure of wind/rain, this is about the worse case of water drainage scenario that you could imagine ... drain off right on a window.
Your first line of defense is the best offense ... take care of water drainage before it gets to the window! You obviously realize the result of not deling w/ it properly.
This is a bad setup, oddly, I've seen worse designs, even from local top name builders. Part of my Niche is trouble shooting leaky windows and making them work. If it were my house, I'd lose the window. But they want to keep it, as it provides natural light to the vaulted entry.
It is quite possible to keep a window there. Make is shorter or narrower , either will move the header away from the eaves.
Only other thing I would do is cut that roof overhang back at an angle and put a good diverter on it that would force the water completely away from the side wall.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Where is the house wrap/felt paper?
Where are the flashings at the lower roof level?
What poor methods and workmanship!
That's amazingly stupid!
Makes one wonder what the rest of the house details look like!?
Perpetual disasters.
............Iron Helix
The house was built in 1995. Tyvek was just taking off here by the late 90s. Most builders were building without house wraps back then, and installing windows without any type of perimeter flashing or sealants. One of my first jobs was working for a third party warranty provider to the big builders. If they had a window leak that couldn't be solved by caulking the siding, we would pull the window trim, apply sticky flashing, and that would usually do it. During that period, I kept asking my boss, "Why don't they just flash the windows when they install them?" Answer: "Costs too much" This is the tract builder mentality that we all know and love. It also keeps me self employed today fixing their homes
It sounds stupid, but that is the way it was. Our climate is far more forgiving than most for water intrusion. (300 days of sunshine/yr) I've still never seen a metal sill pan outside of a magazine.
The lower roof was flashed, and the sheathing is in excellent shape, the water was running down the void between the window frame and trimmer stud, into the wall cavity, and onto the beam below.
I agree with those that suggest a kickout flashing and a gutter - Get the water away from the wall.
The window flashing would be a 2nd line of defense.
And make that kicker big! Don't worry too much about its esthetics, just get the water away.One trick I've seen on some old houses is to run a course of cedar shingles on the roof deck, with their butts up against the adjoining wall, creating a slight valley about 16" from the wall.AitchKay
What are we looking at here:
View Image
Are those roof rafters holding up a drywall ceiling below? Doesn't look like they butt into the wall -- do they? And it looks like there was absolutely no wrap on the window RO. I think you're gonna hafta strip the siding, install wrap and moisture barrier, and properly flash the whole 9 yards. While you're at it, either move, or narrow, the window. It also looks like the damage was done by water getting in at the sill. Was that from roof runoff? What happened to the window? Did the sill rot as well? Unusual to see that much damage so fast if the sill is intact. (Did see it once when an alarm installer drilled through the sills to install mag switches and wiring, letting all the water from the frame chanels drain directly into the framing. Ugly.)
Also, in the first pic, it looks like there's a roof structure to the right of the window as well. Any chance of connecting these two roof planes to provide additional shelter to the window? If so, I'd lower the top of this window to match the one on the left and cover the whole thing with an overhang like the one on the left.
All in all, astoundingly poor design, compounded by amazingly substandard construction detail. No amount of kickouts & caulk will fix this one. Needs to be re-thought and rebuilt.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Here are some more pictures. The first pic is what I saw when I was first called. HO contacted a glass company to replace the window. When they pulled the og window, and discovered the framing, they told her to call someone else, as they don't do carpentry. HO got my name/number from a referral, and this is what I walked into. OG window was long gone by time I came into it. She already has the new window that is the same size. I hadn't thought of downsizing the window, but I like that idea.
How do you post a pic so that it shows in the thread?
What the pic in your post shows is the framing exposed after I have removed the siding, shingles, roof sheathing, and ledger board, then wall sheathing to finally discover how much of the structure is rotten. That dbl micro is only 5' long, and I have since exposed enough of it to replace the exterior ply. I am hoping the interior ply is in good enough shape to leave it there, but haven't yet exposed it.
There never was any house wrap or window wrap or any thing other than head flashing and caulking to keep the water out. Pretty typical for that generation of house in this area.
The damage isn't that fast, the house is 13 years old, and the inside just recently started bubbling the drywall seam. It is weird that this went on with so long with so little evidence from inside or out to indicate a problem.
Yes that is a drywall ceiling below the rafters. The top of the window is 18' from the finished floor, so any sill damage wouldn't be noticeable to any one standing inside. The window washers originally noticed the problem and alerted the HO.
I have stripped the siding, and am still working with the HO to effect a solution. Now the builder is involved, so it may only get more exciting.
If the window is stock, maybe she can return it? Re-sizing would go a long way to making this look/work better. Still can't tell from your pics if adding an overhang above the window would be do-able, but that's what I'd be shooting for if it made sense from a design perspective.
You deserve a gold star for getting that ledger out without mucking up the DW ceiling under it. ;-)
"How do you post a pic so that it shows in the thread? "
Without using HTML code, can do this: Once a pic has already been posted in another thread (your orig, in this case), just right-click the pic, "copy", and "paste" into the new thread. You can even re-size it on the fly by dragging the corners. To embed a pic in a new thread, attach the file as you did, but "edit" the post before posting it. Display, copy and past the pic in the thread, then post.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Been musing on this .
Why not suggest building a valley into that roof above the window?
Start the valley out from the window wall by the depth of the overhang of the existing roof. Much better than a simple diverter .
Hup
Huip
Hike!Take the ball and run with it!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Not a bad solution eh? Seems easy enough to accomplish, wouldn't look terrible (at least offers the look of "Someone thought about this" unlike the current mess) and really does improve the odds of getting that damn window semi protected from the run off. I still favor changing the size of the window myself , but then I don't live there either.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Here's another option ... construct an eave above the window that valleys into the adjoingint roof. Only has to be about 10 inches deep, same slope as the other roof. Aesthetically this would reinforce the situation, maybe ... or is the window too high to do this?-
I started thinking along those lines after reading everyones posts yesterday. I didn't go to the project yesterday because it was raining. When I go back Monday Morning, I will explore some of those options with the HO and see if they want to take it that far. I don't think the window is too high.