I’m building my house and am getting ready to do the laundry room/mud room floor. Teh finish will probably be some kind of 16″X16″ ceramic tile. I’m looking at about 140 SF. Subfloor is 3/4″ Advantec on TJI’s @19.2″.
I was thinking orginally of Durock as a floor sheathing but, after reading a bunch of stuff on the web I’m leaning toward the 1/4″ Hardiebacker (James Hardie recommends the 1/4″ stuff for floors). It just seems easier to install.
Anyone have any experience with one or the other or both?
Thanks!!
Runnerguy
Replies
They are both equally easy to install if you do it correctly. I prefer the Durock.
I believe the tile council rec's minimum 1 1/4 " subfloor for 16" joist spacing. Not sure with 19.2, but it will be thicker. Backer board is not considered structural. Larger tile needs stiffer subfloor.
I would post this question on the John Bridge forum regarding your floor stiffness, instead of Hardiebacker or Durock, why don't you use Ditra?
Martin
I've seen durock installed two layers thick. Glue and screw down one layer, glue and screw the second layer and stagger the joints. I'm not sure if this method is recomended or not. With two layers it is pretty thick.
absolutely no reason to do that.
if U need to match thickness ... use the right ply underneath.
CBU's ... no matter how many U stack ... don't qualify as "structure" ...
1 1/4 " subfloor .... means lumber ... not a stack of CBU's.
and U don't "glue" it to the subfloor ...
U lay it in a bed troweled thinest ... then screw/nail.
lotsa guys swear by screws ... I usually use roofing nails.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I knew that It wasn't the right way. I just have seen it done. I guess it's not helpful to even mention it. Considering someone might go ahead and do it. As far as I know the floor that has two layers is fine. But I digress.
And you also don't attach the mechanical fastners of the backer board at the joists - that is the screws (or nails) should penetrate the backer board and into the subfloor, but not the joists. I'm not sure why, but that's what the instructions for Hardi-board indicate.
because if it's not attached directly and firmly to the framing of the house ...
the floor can actually "float" a little ... it's not as effected by the movement of the framing ... so less chance of seasonal and shrinkage movement expending and contracting the floor itself ... so less chance of cracking/loosening the tiles.
not completely isolated ... but more isolated than if it was attached firmly.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
No special reason, but I prefer Hardibacker, just make sure you cut it outside with a mask on.
>> make sure you cut it outside with a mask on.<<
I would agree with that statement - however it insinuates that you are producing lots of dust when cutting. Cutting this stuff with a saw????
The only need for a dust producing saw is for a curved cut or a plumbing / outlet opening. I use the abrasive jig saw blades for those - coarser grit the better.
I score along a straight edge and snap, just like drywall - virtually no dust - some but not a ton.
I had no luck with the score/snap technique until I bought a carbide scoring tool - utility knife is basically worthless for this task. You need to make several passes with the scoring tool.
Carbide scoring tool - looks like a single, pointed, carbide, saw tooth brazed onto a piece of flat steel bar stock with a handle. I think mine came from Lowes --- in the tile tools department.
Hardi snaps pretty cleanly - especially in the 1/4" thickness. Will snap very cleanly if scored on both sides. In the event you chose to score just one side and snap - and the cut is too ragged - sand with Norton 3X 60 grit on a block - a few passes will clean it right up. Typically when score one side/snap is used, I will sand only about 2 cuts in 10 - still works out way faster than scoring both sides, and produces only about 5% of the dust of saw cutting.
Edit: Just went to HD for some things - checked tile department - Qep is the manufacturer of my tool. Qep is now marketing a "better" line of tools called Brutus, which includes a new design of their scoring tool (old design is still available). Old style = $8, new style = $13 - if I needed a new one, I would get the new design - mostly because it incorporates a "knuckle guard". They have changed the name of both tools to "Backerboard Scoring Tool".
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edited 12/5/2007 1:13 pm ET by JTC1
I bought the knuckle guard model. It didn't make it through the first sheet of Durock. The tip broke off. I replaced it with the cheaper model, which has held up for about five sheets at this time.
Hmmm. Knuckle guard model may not be the best choice.
Was it the brazed joint at the tooth that broke? I hope you took that tool back for a refund!
I see you tried it on Durock. I mostly use Hardi, but have also used it on DenseArmor - or is it DenseShield? - the 1/2" gray stuff from the DenseXxxx product line.
My older, cheaper model has been working fine for several years. I certainly don't tile everyday, but my one tool has done a couple of bathrooms, several floors, half dozen backsplashes.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edited 12/6/2007 7:19 am ET by JTC1
Yes, it broke off at the braze. I took it back the same day for a refund. I looked at the others on the shelf, and they didn't look any better than the one I bought, so I got the cheap one. I think the handle with the knuckle guard is a very good idea, though.
Maybe cheap with a glove is the way to go.
Maybe that is one of the reasons I am partial to HardiBacker - smoother on the knuckles when I forget to put on my gloves for cutting. I hate gloves and my knuckles show it!
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Yeah, I dont know why I cut it instead of snapping. I cant even say its quicker.
I seem to recall that Hardi is a good be lighter in weight to Durock.
runner,
As metioned, you need a minimum 1 1/4" subfloor (structural, not backer board), then use the Ditra, only adds about 1/8" of thickness to the floor, not including the final thinset bed and tile.
Geoff
Dry pack it.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
why bother with old technology.
CBU's work just fine in 99% of situations.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Old guys use old technology...because it works. It wasn't broken and didn't need fixing. It's probably cheaper. I asked a guy that was dry packing a tub surround and shower "Why don't you use cement board for your substrate?" His answer was two words: "Too slow". This guy does it every day. Tile is all he does and he was doing it in a very competitve market which dictates that he works at a fast pace while delivering a top notch product. Most of the builders in our market came from the mud trades (concrete, tile and masonry) and they don't accept slouches or pay a penny more than they have too. I've used the cement board products once on a small bathroom floor. I didn't find it any faster to do. A small dry pack floor in a bathroom can be done in a very short time....no measuring needed. One thing I don't understand about the cement board system is the idea that it's nailed/fastened to the framing yet the framing moves at different rates than concrete. In the dry pack system that I've done, I've installed felt between the mesh and this separate the two different substrates. I've layed some substantial floors (300 sf) without cracking or expansion joints and I know it works. I don't know if a floor that size would work with cement board. I'm not saying it won't work....I just haven't ever seen it done. It's probably just a regional thing. In the East, they strap the ceilings. In Metro Detroit they dry pack the floors for tile in new work. Remodelers might do it different because they are exposed more to the do it yourself stuff. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Old guys use old technology...because it works. It wasn't broken and didn't need fixing.
I believe the term is "improved".
do U use nailguns?
why?
my grandad hand nailed ... he never touched a gun ... he'd probably be afraid of one and work slower at first.
just cause an old guy don't wanna change don't mean the new product isn't worth doing for the rest of the world. Same deal with your old tile setter.
I'm much faster with CBU's ...
and I bet the crews of new const tile guys that use CBU's daily are faster then both me and him with his mud.
"I've layed some substantial floors (300 sf) without cracking or expansion joints and I know it works. I don't know if a floor that size would work with cement board. I'm not saying it won't work....I just haven't ever seen it done. "
it works ... I've done it.
and ... since then ... guess what?
I've started using an even newer and more improved product for that situation ...
Ditra.
bet that weird orange stuff would scare both my Grandad and yer old tile guy!
but ... it's the best product for a 300ft sq floor.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You didn't mention anything about the guy that does tile every day of his life saying that cement board was "too slow".You also didn't talk about which product costs more. You also didn't explain how the two different substrates remain independent even though they are fastened. It might not be a problem...I just don't know enough about this sort of thing to make a case either way. I've never personally figured which is faster or which is more expensive but I do tend to believe guys that do it every single day. They are the guys that benefit the most from better products. Like I said, it might be a regional thing. It might be a county thing meaning I worked in a county that just never saw the need to change from what they know works. I won't say either way is better or worse. I know from my experience that I wan't happy doing the cement board and will continue to use the dry pack system as long as I have a choice. I find it to be very easy for flat work. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You didn't mention anything about the guy that does tile every day of his life saying that cement board was "too slow".
Yes I did.
too slow for him ...
You also didn't explain how the two different substrates remain independent even though they are fastened. It might not be a problem...I just don't know enough about this sort of thing to make a case either way.
Hasn't been a problem for me. I do more tile than the average "remodeler" ...
I traditionally split my time between my own remodeling ... and subbing as a K and B installer ... turnkey usually. And 90% of those baths involve tile. I've framed, boarded and tiled my share of showers and tub surrounds ... haven't seen any problems.
the corners sometimes move ... what's why U don't grout corners ...
I've never personally figured which is faster or which is more expensive but I do tend to believe guys that do it every single day. They are the guys that benefit the most from better products.
don't care. Nothing I do is production based ... that's why I hate new const.
I don't do them all as full mud beds because I simply don't see the need.
might very well be regional ... but Ditra certainly isn't a standard here.
I don't go by regional ... I use what works best for me and my clients.
Jeff
edit to say ... and I'm sure this may get a little attention ...
but I don't base much on what the "old timers" say and/or do.
I listen ... but I've found ... most of the time ... something is "done that way" because it's always been "done that way". Just 'cause a carp grows old don't mean he's gotten any smarter ... or wasn't a freaking idiot when he started!
old don't impress me ... the willingness to adapt and learn better methods and materials does. My Dad imparted that in me ... he was always pushing to learn another way to skin the cat. He'd gladly stop doing things "his way" when I showed a new product or better method.
old guys that never change ... I don't consider them too smart.
I run across alot of old tile setters ... there's a reason they're 101 yrs old ... bent over backwards ... and still have to work.
their way of doing things isn't what i'm looking for ...
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Edited 12/6/2007 10:34 pm ET by JeffBuck
It probably was faster for him because he was good at what he was doing.
As I leaned in the door way watching him, I say him set two screedpoles plumb on the end of a tub base, lay on the mud heavy and screed it off perfect with a simple angle iron screed. He was done with that tub end faster than I could have measured, snapped a line on a piece of cement board and cut it so I could see he was very fast and efficient. He had a supply of mud, so it didn't figure into the time equation. He was young...maybe late twenties or mid thirties. I wouldn't call the neighborhood that I was talking about "production". If you knew anything about the Italian craftsmen that make up a huge segment of the local builder's you'd understand that everything about the mud trades are extremely important to them. They demand and get expert tile work and brick work although a lot of the brick work is starting to slide because there aren't any more oldtimers doing it. That particular trade has been relinquished to the
illegal from the south. I'd take your bait and debate you about the old timer mentality but I mostly agree with it. I've spent a lifetime innovating and challenging conventional wisdom so you won't get no argument from me defending old guys that won't try different product. As I mentioned earlier, I've tried cement board and didn't like it. You like cement board...more power to you.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks everyone for your replies. I think I'll put down a layer of 1/2" plywood, screwed and glued to the subfloor and then the underlayment on that. This will put the top of the tile about a quarter inch above the 3/4" hardwood at the interior door but that will be ok. I'll probably install an oak reducer strip there.
The exterior door we already raised the threshold up 3/4" above the subfloor so there should be plenty of room to the bottom of the actual door swing.
Thanks again.
Runnerguy
Runner,
Check out Schluter for their transition line, they have a good selection of options for transitioning from one surface to another, they also are the maker of Ditra.
Geoff
Neither. Ditra is the way to go. Goes down faster than durock or hardibacker. You can start laying tile as soon as you put it down, no waiting for the the thinset to set-up.
You cannot get it in stores yet, just order it on-line.