Help. I just can’t ever quickly recall how to determine door swing. I was told at one time something about if you stand with your back to the door on the interior of a room and had to push or pull the door open and the knob is on your right or left, than it’s an XYZ.
Does anyone have a super simple condensed method to determine in/out/LH/RH swing?
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You stand with your butt against the hinge jamb. Butt to Butt. Then describe which way the door swings.
The most basic way, is as described by the previous poster. Standing in the opening, back to the hinge jamb, if the door swings to the R it's a RH.
That'll work when ordering interior doors from a lumberyard, and all exterior doors that aren't part of a window package. Just make sure you add the additional spec, "inswing" or "outswing" when ordering the exterior ones.
I do it in 3D when walking through a job, counting up the requirements, and even when doing a takeoff from plans, imagine myself standing in each opening. It is as if I can't trust my eyes just looking at the 2D symbol on the plan.
Things step up a notch in complexity, though, when you need to describe more than just the swing of a door leaf for hinging. Hardware functionality and frame types inject the need to describe things as "reverse," when talking door handing to window companies, and when ordering hardware.
That's as far as you wanted to take it, right?
Actually more in depth was the direction I was leaning towards including reverse swing, hardware and such if you don't mind following up. The most common situation I'm in is tending commercial carpenters and they say go grab door #4-231 out of a stack of 150 hollow metal core doors. Which is great when someone has marked the hinge pocket in permanent marker or the sticker hasn't fallen off after sitting on site for 6 months. So I don't find door #4-231. But I know for instance the door is for a bathroom so I can eliminate any others with side lights, it's a 32" door, should be prepped for an overhead closer, and excluding the option of being a fire rated door, I'm down to say 5 very similar doors. What are the easy memory tricks to fill in the rest?
I'm not quite sure what you are after, but I know that the world of commercial hollow steel doors, frames, and hardware is a far different one than the the world most residential carpenters live in.
The same door and its frame can be installed in an opening as RH or LHR, and unless you look at the schedule on the plans, you won't know swing direction.
1. Are you looking for a door panel?
2. Is the door mortised for a lock set or is it getting push plates?
3. A door with a welded buck (jamb)?
4. A door with a knock down buck?
5. The size of the throat on the buck needs to match the thickness of the wall. 3 5/8" stud with single 5/8" rock, 4 7/8" throat. Double rock, 6 1/8" throat.
"Reverse" refers to hardware, so that they key and the latch are oriented correctly. Right hand reverse (RHR) and left hand reverse (LHR).
buic
"" "Reverse" refers to hardware, so that they key and the latch are oriented correctly. Right hand reverse (RHR) and left hand reverse (LHR)."" Elaborate on this statement please. It lost me .
Convention has doors described as being viewed from outside the building or room they serve. A right hand door to bathroom would swing in with the hinge on the right hand side. If the door swung out, it would be a right hand reverse. This allows hardware schedules to show which side locks, panic hardware etc. should be installed.
Thanks , That is what I have understood it to be.
Interestingly enough I learned handing doors 35 yrs ago here in Oregon from door salemen and lumber yards (all residential work). The technique I first learned was the one of "Butts to butts/Hand to hand".
It wasn't until I got into commercial that I learned the lableing that you described.
It can be confusing if you don't know what the other people are using when placing orders so now I know to ask which way the order taker does things before I give my order.
Confirming your terminology with the sales guy sounds like a good idea considering the confusion this topic seems to cause. I didn't know the butt/hinge thing. I have always done it by which hand you would use to grasp the knob. When I draw a door schedule it often involves a lot of arm swinging at my board to get them right.
I've been trying to copy a page from the Ingersol-Rand / Schlage site that has a good diagram of this.
My computer skills aren't up to the task!
Here's the address:
http://consumer.schlage.com/results.asp?q=handing&access=p&site=ST-Residential&client=ST_Residential&output=xml_no_dtd&x=6&y=7
If you go to the second PDF file "Arch. guide to resid. hardware", then go to page 23, then look at the lower right hand corner of the page, there's the diagram.
It shows RH, RHR, LH, and LHR clearly.
Maybe someone else can put into a post, I can't.... buic
Buic
I tried to copy it and bring it over but failed miserably!
But, thats the way I have always called out doors to!
Doug
Doug - Thanks for trying.
Maybe someone else will give it a whirl. (see post #34)
buic
http://consumer.schlage.com/customerservice/pdfs/MR-886_Sweets_2007_Rev09-06.pdfScroll to Page 23, lower right hand corner...
Edited 2/18/2007 2:30 am ET by dovetail97128
OK. This should help.
View Image
Edited 2/18/2007 8:30 am ET by DonCanDo
Thanks Don...buic
I know you were in the door industry, but if I understand your description then it's the exact opposite of what I do and everyone I work with does, in terms of determining RH or LH.
Stand on the side of the door that has the hinge barrels showing. If they are on your right, it's a RH door. If they are on your left, it's a LH door.
If you move out west, better be damn careful when you order doors. Most of the door orders I sign these days have a little picture showing each door with the < or > drawn on it. Maybe it's to protect east coasters from mistakes.
Stand in the doorway and face the side of the room that the door opens to. So if the door opens into the bedroom from the hall, face straight into the bedroom.
Now, pretend one of your arms is attached to the door when it swings open and one of your elbows is attached to a hinge. If it's your right arm that swings with the door, it's an RH door, if it's your left, it's an LH door.“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
Stand on the side of the door that has the hinge barrels showing. If they are on your right, it's a RH door. If they are on your left, it's a LH door.
If you move out west, better be damn careful when you order doors. Most of the door orders I sign these days have a little picture showing each door with the < or > drawn on it. Maybe it's to protect east coasters from mistakes.
David, are you sure of this? Absolutely sure? Take me to some western states doormaker's websites that describe handing the way you just did.
I just went to Andersen's site and they are in line with the handing convention that I know and use. Now, I know, they are in MN, which you consider part of "back east," but I'll bet they ship a few items out your way.
Furthermore, when I was in the biz, I was in door shops up around Seattle, and never knew them to use a door handing convention the reverse of what all our ThermaTru shop manuals and catalogs showed.
For commercial work, doors from the window industry, and hardware callouts, the term "reverse" comes into play. I always think of a reverse-handed door as one that swings toward you to open, when entering a space from its "outside." When using the term reverse, one does as you do . . . that is, one stands outside the door and looks for the hinge barrels. If they are on the R, the door callout is RHR, or right hand reverse.
I buy all my door hardware from Woodward's Ace Hardware in Santa Ana, CA. They're out west, ("for sure, man!"), and use these same handing conventions.
BTW, didja price out Uponor's QuikTrac yet? These guys have it for about $3.50/sf. http://www.pexsupply.com/categories.asp?cID=209&brandid=
Stand on the side of the door that has the hinge barrels showing. If they are on your right, it's a RH door. If they are on your left, it's a LH door.
Isn't this exactly what Gene just said?
You stand with your butt against the hinge jamb and describe which way the door swings. It can be right or left hand..inswing or outswing.
I don't know how anything could be simpler than that. I have never heard of a door being ordered in any other way.
You quoted:
"Stand on the side of the door that has the hinge barrels showing. If they are on your right, it's a RH door. If they are on your left, it's a LH door."
Then you said:
"You stand with your butt against the hinge jamb and describe which way the door swings. It can be right or left hand..inswing or outswing."
Think about it. The two methods contradict one another.
An outswinging glass patio door sold by most all the major window companies, viewed from the outside with its hinge knuckles visible and on the right, would be called out as RHR or right hand reverse configuration.
But, open the door wide, stand in the opening with your back to the hinges, and the door is operating to your left.
In most all of Dade county Florida, a huge market for doors, front entries on most all single family housing has doors swinging out, not in. A door order into a millwork shop there would call out the door as described, with its hinges seen on the right as viewed from outside, as LH-outswing, and the butt-to-butts thinking applies. The very same swing config, which if bought from a window company, would be called RHR, or right hand reverse.
Confused? If so, then don't be in the business of ordering or selling doors, glass patio doors, or hardware for them. Stick with something you know. I'm sticking to skiing lately . . . all I have to know is which way is downhill.
I'm not talking about patio doors. They have always had their own way of describing things. (illogically) I'm talking about regular doors used in residential construction. That's what I assumed the original poster was talking about.
You still order common doors the same way you did 30 years ago...at least around here you do.
Maybe those two quotes do contradict each other. I'm not quite sure exactly what he means about which way he is standing. If you stand butt to butt and the hinge barrel is on your right..it is a right swinging door. You would then describe it as a right inswing or a right outswing.
If the barrel was on your left...you would describe it as a left inswing or a left outswing.
That is the way they have been selling doors in the midwest for as long as I remember.
It sounds like you have more than enough snow??
"Maybe those two quotes do contradict each other. I'm not quite sure exactly what he means about which way he is standing. If you stand butt to butt and the hinge barrel is on your right..it is a right swinging door.
They definitely contradict each other. I'm not talking about standing with my butt against the jamb, I'm talking about facing the door opening directly.
In your example above, that's a LH door to me.
On the rare occasions when I order an outswinging exterior door I am sure to specify that--in fact with many manufacturers it's a different category of door altogether, so that's explicit anyway.
I used to work for an old guy when I was starting out. He didn't have much book smarts, but was the most practical man I ever met. He always said to stand on the hinge barrel side of door, facing it and reach for the knob. If you reached with the right hand(right pull) it was a right hand door. He always ordered doors 'right pull' or 'left pull'. Pretty idiot proof if you ask me.
He also used to tell me to $hit in my hat and sit on it when I asked him dumb questions!
Kimball
That is the one I keep hearing, but it confuses the snot out of me. If I am facing the door, I am just as likely to reach for the knob with either hand
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I used to work for an old guy when I was starting out. He didn't have much book smarts, but was the most practical man I ever met. He always said to stand on the hinge barrel side of door, facing it and reach for the knob. If you reached with the right hand(right pull) it was a right hand door. He always ordered doors 'right pull' or 'left pull'. Pretty idiot proof if you ask me.
Yes, that gives you the same results as the "butt to butt" rule. We oldtimers are very logical!
Well, all I can say is that they don't order doors the way you do in most other parts of the country!
I can see why people would get confused trying to remember which side of the door to stand on etc. etc.
That's why the old "butt to butt" rule is foolproof.
I do know one thing is common...doors are getting extremely expensive and you sure don't want to wait a month for a door and have it come in bass ackwards.
I think both rules are extremely simple to follow. Even Brett Favre would be able to order doors correctly!
Edited 2/17/2007 4:59 pm by davidmeiland
I happen to know Brett and I would disagree with that statement.
Well, at least he has some other reliable skills, and maybe you to rely on if he needs doors.
I think that a partial reason for the commercial applications using the RH/RHR, LH/LHR is in the hardware supply.
Commercial work uses more keyed entry locksets within the interiour of the structure than residential does.
Knowing which way the door opens in terms of a hallway works to tell you which side of a door will have the lock cylinder on it , and therefore which way the tumblers are oriented.
That will save the door crew a lot of time on the install if they don't have to stop and change the tumbler orientation on the locksets.
For the passage locks and privacy locks used in residential work it doesn't matter.
Keyed entries and in particular panic hardware on exits.
I worked renovations to a courthouse several years ago. The Fire Martial was insisting that the locks on the secure stairwells used by the Judges should open in the event of fire, to provide an alternate exit. The Judge ended the discussion by threatening to cite us (The architects)for contempt if we complied.
You said, regarding the hardware term "reverse,"
For the passage locks and privacy locks used in residential work it doesn't matter.
That attitude won't work for you, or for me, if the job has a powder room, as my last two jobs did, with a door that swings out of the space, instead of in. And it will fail you miserably when you have to deal with levered sets.
Gene,
You are correct , depending on the lock manufacturer. Schlage has residential handle and lever sets that reverse very easily. Most commercial units do not. I shouldn't have made the blanket statement I did.
Edited 2/18/2007 1:38 am ET by dovetail97128
I do quite a few door replacement jobs and never concern myself with figuring out door swing.
I make a sketch of the floor plan showing the door sizes and the swing direction and let the door guy take it from there. When I was ordering 10 doors last Friday, he told me that he liked my method since it completely eliminated the "guesswork" he often encounters on other orders.
be careful with the abbreviations RH, LH, HR, HL
HR would be LH
and HL would be RH.. that might be where some of the confusion arsies
normal description here would be "LH , inswing" ( left hand , inswing) to describe an exterior door... or RH, inswing
on an interior door , normal description would be RH , or LH ( right HAND or left HAND )
an older , also accepted description would be HINGED right, or HINGED left...
hinging and handing are the oppositeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Using those descriptions wouldn't a LH inswing and a HL be the same door?
as long as you define inswing & outswing
if you know that
facing the door and pulling it to you , if the hinges are on the left it's HL
AND it's a RH door (door know on RIGHT )
however.. the one constant in ALL this discussion is put your BUTT ( 2 t's, BTW ) to the BUTT ( as in butt hinge ) ... which ever arm represents the SWING, then that is the "hand" , either "right hand" or "left hand"
and of course a door can still be properly described as "hinged right " or " hinged left"... so just double check with EVERYONE as to what we are all talking about.. nothing like waiting 6 weeks for a $2000 door , only to get the swing wrong
and schematic plans can be your undoing as well... if they fail to demonstrate which side is "IN" and which side is "OUT" when talking about exterior doors
since i've been caught out just about every way you can be with doors, i seldom fail to make my self abundantly clear on this matter
so.... the little neumonic is still the best, " put your butt to the butt" and then swing your arm to represent the swing... left arm is "left hand" right arm is " right hand"
interesting if you look up "butt" in wickepedia........Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
how does a simple qiestion like door swing get to 31 posts
A: it gets posted on Breaktime
31 posts because so many get it wrong.
segundo goes off on a tangent hoping to get it to fifty!
But to butt, c*ck to lock.
Finally! after thirty five years, I found a memonic for this. Thank you sir! You have found a way to stick in my mind's eye forever.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
i liked that one as well, and was reminded of the phrase i came up with (hope this one makes it on quotable quotes thread) to remind apprentices to anticipate the next move, so that it would be a waltz and not a jerk when transitioning from tasks.
i found it was much more memorable to tell them not "think ahead", but think "of" head, the mental image serves to remind, especially after an opportunity to plan ahead for a transition is "blown", and pointed out as such to be corrected.
and now that we're on the subject, and i may be facing jail time anyway, what is up with the descriptive terms in relation to location ie: if it is right on its either "tlts" or "dead nuts", but if its off a little its just a c--- hair, there is no male analogy for being off a little. now that says something right there! and i don't care who you are thats funny right there, git-r-done.
and as far as jail time is concerned, i have heard rumors of it happening, and the penalty box suggestion, etc. and just want to say to the moderators...
you don't know what your limits are until you exceed them! and just because i'm sliding doesn't mean i'm out of control!