Just moved into a new house (actually a townhouse that was a model for approx 2 to 3 years) in Washington County Pa, which has a second floor laundry in a closet. Anyway the outlet for the washer is a GIF and when the washer has a heavy load in it, say like jeans or towels the GFI trips somewhere in the spin cycle and I am not sure why. I really dont know why they used a GFI there anyway…..I dont think it is a requirement, anybody got any ideas why it is tripping and can I change it out to a regular standard outlet?
Second I hate the fact that all the plugs have to ground plug up, I guess that is a code requirment now.
Third the electrical panels has all the breakers marked but some are not, is it possible that these are spares? It is a GE panel and I believe it is 150 amp panel.
Thanks
Dan
Replies
I'm not an electrician but I pretty sure neither are a code requirement.
The only time the laundry receptacle needs to be GFCI is if it is within 5' of a sink and that is a fairly new code requirement.
The orientation of the ground is builder's choice, the code is silent on that.
I bet you have a chafed wire in your washing machine that grounds out when it is spinning.
"The only time the laundry receptacle needs to be GFCI is if it is within 5' of a sink and that is a fairly new code requirement."Or any place within a "bathroom". Or in a garage, or unfinished basement..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
" Or in a garage, or unfinished basement."
I believe there is an exception if the outlet is in hard to reach areas or some such...
open to interpretation.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
There was two. I believe that both have been elimated in the 2008, but not sure.One was limited to the garage and it was for receptacles mounted high. Mainly in their for garage door openers.I think that the was for both garages and basements. And that was for ones for use with appliances not normally moved. I think that it was written for freezers, but also includes things like refrigerators, and sump pumps. Also all receptacles need to have something plugged into them. Thus if you had a duplex it might be a refrigerator and freezer. If one applicance then you needed to use a simplex..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
In 2008 virtually every receptacle in the house will have ground fault protection (the 30ma GFI built into the required AFCI) that is now expanded from the bedroom to almost everywhere. A lot of appliances should just be left in your old house when you move because they will trip the AFCI.
Bill is right, GFCI exceptions are pretty much gone for all those garages and basements but a lot of that happened in the 2005.
I'll second what gfretwell said.
>>I don't think it is a requirement, anybody got any ideas why it is tripping and can I change it out to a regular standard outlet?<<
Not required unless sink within 5'. As to changing it out to standard outlet, I wouldn't, at least until you solve the nuisance tripping - chafed wire is excellent theory - heavy loads are generally somewhat unbalanced and it probably shakes more. Find the cause first.
>>Second I hate the fact that all the plugs have to ground plug up, I guess that is a code requirement now.<<
not code required flip them over if you like
>> electrical panels has all the breakers marked but some are not, is it possible that these are spares?<<
It is possible, but not very probable. More likely is that they are in service, just not labelled. For the most part, townhouse electricians will not be adding any spare breakers (runs up their costs).
Open panel to start investigation -- if there is a wire connected to the "spare" --- it's in service. Then it is up to you to find out what the "spares" actually power. You could start by turning on all of the lights, fans, etc, in the house. Turn off all of the marked breakers and see what is still working.
Better yet, this would be an excellent opportunity to "map" your house and find out exactly what is powered by every breaker. Save your findings for future reference - copious notes and room sketches. DW and yourself could do this in an afternoon or evening - two cell phones on speaker makes the job go fast - one person at breaker box - other person is running around the house flipping switches - plugging in a test light, etc.
Jim
I just sold a house and the code guy made me put a GFI on the washer. Seems to be an up and coming rule in a lot of places. I know a few towns in this area that require them.
Had to put one on the fridge too, and that was 11' away from the sink. When I questioned him, he mumbled something about a lot of rules changing.
I'm not an electrician either but I've picked up alot house mousing with differnt subs over the years. It seems that if the washer is on a dedicated 15 amp circuit, it should be ok. check the rating on the washer and see what the draw is. Any of your neghbors having a similar problem? Maybe the problem isn't with the receptacle.
Check the size of the wire too. If it's 12 wire, you can go ahead and put in a 20 amp GFI. If it's 14 gauge, leave the 15 amp.
GFCI's don't trip due to overload. They trip when current through the hot terminal is not matched by current through the neutral terminal (by a few milliamps), which means that some current is bleeding off to ground somewhere.BruceT
"GFCI's don't trip due to overload. They trip when current through the hot terminal is not matched by current through the neutral terminal (by a few milliamps), which means that some current is bleeding off to ground somewhere."I don't have any proof of this. But from several problems I have seen and other have reported I have the feeling that a sudden increase in current from a heavy motor load might generate some noise spike that trips the logic without an unbalance in currents.And that is particular true with older GFCI's.Only a therory, but I have seen some of those cases where replacing the GFCI solved the problem..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
But from several problems I have seen and other have reported I have the feeling that a sudden increase in current from a heavy motor load might generate some noise spike that trips the logic without an unbalance in currents.
That's true. A sudden high current load (e.g. starting a motor) creates an imbalance in the line for a short time, due primarily due to the inductance of the wire. A marginal or fast-acting GFCI can trip due to the momentary imbalance.
One common way of implementing the delay in a GFCI is with a capacitor circuit. Over time, the capacitors dry out and change value. Then the GFCI trips often, and replacing fixes the problem.
Edited 5/23/2009 9:02 pm ET by woodturner9
Current code requires a 20 amp circuit for the laundry "room".And I doubt if you will find a GFCI that is not rated for 20 amps.However, the receptacle part of the GFCI can have either 15 amp or 20 amp layout. And you can use 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit as long as there are more than one.And the common duplex receptacle counts at 2. And all 15 amp duplex receptacles are rated for 20 amp feed through and 20 amps between the 2 two 15 amp receptacles..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
"Third the electrical panels has all the breakers marked but some are not, is it possible that these are spares? "
More likely they only marked those for a few selected circuits and/or those that might have been tripped or where they changed light fixture or something later.
It might also have been a few extra temporary circuits that where run to the garage with it was the office.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I second changing out the old GFCI with a new one, if that still doesn't work, buy a new washer
A few years ago, there was quite a debate about the quality of GFCIs... some apparently were not well made or QC'd. If the wiring at the box looks OK, and if the wiring into the appliance is in decent shape (should be easy to check by popping the back panel and inspecting), a new 20 amp GFCI to match the (presumably) 20 amp line should do the trick.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
"a new 20 amp GFCI to match the (presumably) 20 amp line should do the trick."http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=120498.9.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Orientation is preference. People are used to seeing the ground down and most electricians know the recommendation for ground up.
The theory I've heard is that if an object falls it will be deflected by the ground first.
A note to all the ppl who drop flat metal objects along walls w/ cords plugged half-in? Same holds true for the neutral side up when horizontal (ground to left).
Not a likely necessity but at least has an arguable logic.
The flat object sliding along the wall is a valid point. OTOH some cords have the prongs at 90 degrees to the wire and imply a receptacle orientation. The washer cord may be less stressed if the receptacle ground is down if that is the case. I guess it can be a case of "picking one's poison".
Edited 5/24/2009 7:31 pm ET by sisyphus
A receptacle dedicated for an appliance should not be a GFI as to avoid nuisance tripping. You would never put a fridge on a GFI protected circuit. Yes I have seen duplex receptacles installed that way but it is not a code requirement.