I just bought a 1919 California Bungalow in Oakland CA, and am upgrading the wiring. I selected a contractor with a stellar reputation, and the bid was a little over $6000 to upgrade the service to 125A, replace (and reposition per code) the existing 50A subpanel and redistribute the wiring in the newer parts of the house, fix all the bad splices and reversed polarity receptacles, install GFCIs where appropriate, and add a new 60A subpanel in the garage for a kiln.
I wanted to go to 200A, but that would have required trenching to the street to lay larger conduit; and more time, money, and uncertainty involving the local utility company (PG&E).
They were originally going to reuse the original kitchen stove feed for the garage, but it’s only 50A, so now they are running a direct feed from the main for 70A to the garage subpanel.
I assumed (but it wasn’t spelled out) that the subpanel in the house would support nearly the full 125A, but the electrician doing the installation said the panel they were installing, though rated to 125A, would only be wired for 70A. After some discussion back and forth, and after he contacted his supervisor, they told me they would go up to 90A but that there is no need for anything more than that.
My father thinks this is absurd; he says homes built in the midwest in the past 20 years, including his, all have 200A service. OTOH, this is not the midwest.
Now for the kind of loads I expect to have:
Dishwasher, garbage disposer, refrigerator
Microwave, toaster, gas range
Washing machine, gas dryer
Gas heat, gas water heater
*no* A/C, several portable fans for cooling
Five computers, 3 monitors, 2 ink-jet printers
Industrial sewing machine, overlock machine
Industrial iron with mini-boiler
48A kiln (in garage)
Assorted portable power tools (mostly in garage as well)
37″ TV, component stereo system circa 1977, VCR
Basic DVD player, CD changer
Electric bass with a low-end combo speaker (I’m thinking 50W only)
I like a lot of light, and use 75W and 100W light bulbs a lot
The house is 1351 square feet per county records. I don’t know whether or not that includes the back bathroom, which couldn’t possibly have been done with permits. I’m thinking about adding on in the next year or so. My fiance is an artist and a tailor, and we’d like to add an art gallery.
I guess the big thing is the weather here is mild, so I don’t have the load imposed by heating and air conditioning, and I have gas appliances. Does 90A for the house seem reasonable?
Thanks,
Rebeccah
Replies
I think with all the gas appliances you will be just fine.
It does to me, particularly if you are not running electric resistance heat. Other than the kiln, you don't have any unusually high draw appliances. 100 amp services are pretty standard upgrades for old 60 amp services on 20's-50's ranches here in the midwest for 1200 sf houses with gas furnaces and stoves.
New homes in the over-1800 sf range (and under too) have for a number of years sported 200 amp standard services. I personally have 100 amp service because of the cost of dropping new service from the utility, gas heat, a full cabinet shop w/ floor mounted saws, drill presses, etc., central a/c, etc. and it is more than adequate. It sounds like the electricians will get you to having balanced loads, i.e. not one circuit pulling more than its share.
You can calc amperages by volts x amps = watts. so a 100-watt bulb is a little less than an amp of draw. I know that's not scientific but it will give you an idea. A 1500 watt microwave draws around 13 amps, an oven maybe around the same.
remodeler
Thanks, guys.
That's reassuring.
Rebeccah
It's kind of out of character for me to be anal but I have to severaly caution you against using light bulbs that draw more then the fixture is rated for. What I'm talking about is using 75 and 100 watt bulbs in fixtures rated for only 60 amps. Before morning one of our resident scientist will break the whole thing down but the short of it is. Your drawing more then the wire and socket are designed to handle and it causes the insulation on the wiring to overheat and break down and then you have a bare wire with current laying against insulation or shorting out. Your house will burn down. Add more light fixtures or whatever it takes but make sure you don't use too big a bulb for the fixture. It tells you on the fixture what it's rated for.stick to it.
Who Dares Wins.
Thanks for the warning.
I do know this, and I'm always on the lookout for fixtures that will accept 75W and 100W bulbs. They're kind of hard to find.
That's why I was concerend you don't see a lot of them. Everyone in my house would be one if I could find them. I love bright lighting.Who Dares Wins.
A fine point but it is not the current draw but the heat generated by the bulb itself that limits the bulb wattage in a light fixture.
If you can stand the color difference, use a fluorecent bulb, any wattage fluorecent that will physically fit will be fine, cheaper to run, and less heat.
Rebeccah: For $6000, you maybe should consider DIY and educating yourself on wiring, etc. Replaced an old 70A panel in great grandma's house last month with 200A service (BTW, you can put in a 200 A panel with your existing service wires, anything on the power company side of the weatherhead is their concern) for a grand total of about $300. That included a new panel, meter base, weatherhead, etc, plus about 15 new outlets, plus 100A heat pump feeder.
I'm becoming more familiar with electrical wiring as this goes on, and any future work inside the house I plan to do myself. However:
1. I actually can't put a 200A panel with the existing service wires. That's the point. The existing service wires are undersized for 200A.
2. The existing conduit to the street is undersized for the size of wire required for 200A service. 2" used to be allowed, and is what I have. Now they require 3".
3. The existing location of the main panel places part of the service feed under the house. The code no longer allows that. If I upgrade the service, I am required to move the conduit to the side of the house.
4. The only physical labor PG&E does on the service upgrade is to pull the wires (the electrician sets the tapes in the conduit for them, and everything). However, they have to approve the service upgrade, and they charge for "engineering" it -- which I think is supposed to mean things like reviewing the electrician's plans, determining whether the service to the entire neighborhood will support the proposed upgrade, and so forth. This takes months and costs thousands of dollars (billed separately by PG&E BTW). The more time they spend reviewing plans and inspecting, the more money PG&E will charge.
5. I don't want the headache of having to deal with inspections/plan reviews by both the building inspector AND PG&E. There are issues about siting the panel where it won't be at risk from cars in the driveway, accessibility as far as height and clearance from obstructions (such as shrubbery), etc., as well as sizing the wiring and all the rest. I don't know the rules, and I don't have time to learn them now, and I don't have time to take off work to meet with inspectors.
6. The service upgrade as well as the knob and tube wiring were issues for my homeowners insurance, and I promised to attend to them within 30-60 days of taking posession of the house as a condition of underwriting. I don't have time to do this myself in my spare time.
7. Electricity is a major safety item. My fiance likes to cut corners. I don't want any corners cut here, either through ignorance or through a false sense of expediency.
Anyway, you get the picture. There is *PLENTY* of other work to do on this house that I can do myself and/or with the help of my fiance. This one I'm leaving to the pros. (I did mentally add $5,000-10,000 to the cost of the house when I saw the condition of the splices in the basement, so this is already budgeted for.)
Did you get bids from other electricians? I had similar work done before we moved in and it cost $2500, which included two guys for 2 full days and all materials and permits. They billed an hourly rate and charged double what the materials cost them. If the local market demands $6000 for that amount of work, then you have to pay it. But I think you'd be doing yourself a favor to get a couple more bids to see if the one you have is in line.
The 90A sounds fine.
Hi,
Yeah, I got one other bid -- well, I had another electrician come out and he gave a napkin estimate that was about $1000 less, but he never got back with the written quote, and ended up not taking the job because he didn't have time to contact PG&E about the proposed location for the main panel.
The contractor I hired had done an informal estimate on site as well, and it was about $1500 less than what he ended up quoting on paper, so I think I'm really getting a pretty representative price here.
Rebeccah
Rebeccah,
First, congratulations on the house! And especially because it's a bungalow. I'm a big fan of the style and the underlying design principles. I grew up in a bungalow in L.A.
Second, for the loads you've described, 90A for the house is plenty. Keep in mind that for 120V loads, that's 90A x 2 which is 180A at 120V. That's more 100 watt incandescent lamps (which draw 0.83A at 120V), electronics, and small motor loads (like fans) than you could fit into a small house.
Third, I think you're getting a good deal on the price. I'm an electrical contractor in Sacramento and have done work in the Bay Area. Prices there for any of the trades are among the highest in the country. From what you've described (and knowing how much effort it takes to do old work), I think it'll take a journeyman and a helper about five days to complete the work. Generally, a reputable plumbing or electrical contractor (meaning one with proper training, insurance, workers comp, etc) in your area will bill out at about at $1,000/day (or a little more) for two guys and a truck. Figure about a K-buck for materials, and there you go.
As far as doing it yourself, you're smart to farm it out. There can be a lot of nasty suprises in old work, and it takes experience to know what's O.K. to leave and what has to be fixed or replaced. And it does take time to work with the utility and building cept. On top of that, most of the building departments in the Bay Area are downright hostile towards owners who try to pull a permit to do their own work. They do everything they can to intimidate and discourage people from doing their own electrical work (even though it's legal).
Feel free to e-mail me if you have specific questions ([email protected]). I've re-wired and done service upgrades on quite a few bungalows.
Cliff
p.s. Have fun with the pottery (or is it ceramics?) CP
Edited 6/18/2004 1:14 am ET by CAP
Why not put in a panel and entrance that maxs out the existing 2"conduit size.
......say 150A. This is an available main breaker box size.
This would allow for any future expansion of the "arts" or for the "house"!
Who knows what is next.....with global warming you may need an A/C!
Or two kilns................Iron Helix
Thanks for the reassurance.
Yes, they've been working three days so far, and there are two of them (one significantly more experienced than the other), and I think there've been a couple of minor surprises.
Oh, and the kiln is for ceramic sculpture. My fiance is an artist (and a tailor and a handyman). He does mostly painting and sculpture.
Rebeccah
while we are bein nosey..what kind of bass ya got?
I used to build Ken Smith basses, and Ibanez.
Please tell me it's an acoutic upright witha PU ..lol
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Don't remember what kind it is -- it was an inexpensive one from Guitar Center. I got it for my fiance, who in turn gave me his electic keyboard that he had gotten in trade from an artist friend of his in exchange for the bass he had before. :)
We like music, but my fiance in particular is not into material things at all. He likes the sound of this one, and I liked the low cost.
Rebeccah
Concur with Junkhound, if you like a lot of bright light you should go with compact fluorescent, otherwise your house is a C02 factory.
There are 3 things to look for in a light:
- luminescence, how bright the light is, a 32W CFL provides same luminescence as a 100W incandescent
- color rendition index, look for CFLs with CRI of at least 80%
- temperature, a light is "warmer" the lower the temperature! Generally look for 2800-3000 Kelvin.
CFLs get a bad rap because of the high-temp "cold" lights, but these days there are good low-temp "warm" lights by varying the gases in the light. Our living room now has 32W CFLs, same brightness as when we were burning 100W incandescents at 1/3 the price and much less heat, and you can't distinguish the CFLs' light from incandescent.
You can find out more information about CFL at the EFI web site.
Whatever you do, stay away from halogen, which are great heat lamps.
Rebeccah,
I concur with Kevin, My GF is extremely sensitive to flouresents. But now she is happily converting to the mini screw in flour's. They operate (wag) at a much higher frequency and volteage thasn the old ones, much warmer, more natural.
They put out roughly 5 times what an incandesent of the same heat (wattage) does.
I just grew a beautiful tomatoe plant under 4 @ 100watt equivalents in a cabinet 12"x16"x24" without any heat worries. Total consumed energy = 92 watts.
Our porch light is 7 watts! That is actually less than some plugin nite lites.
Forgive my lack of eurudition, it's still BC.
SamT
I just grew a beautiful tomatoe plant under 4 @ 100watt equivalents Sam, I notice you stuttered a little when you typed tomatoe (the spaces before it)...was it actually a tomoatoe plant, or could it have been something else that people grow indoors under fluorescent lights? We won't tell...honest. Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
> "warm" lights by varying the gases in the light.
The gas is always mercury vapor. What they vary are the phosphors.
> you can't distinguish the CFLs' light from incandescent
I usually can, and there are lots of people who are bothered by the difference even more than I am. The problem is the two strong green spectral lines of mercury. CFL's are fine for cheap security lighting, but not for where people I like are going to spend much time.
Halogens give you a very nice clean black body spectrum.
-- J.S.
I like halogens, too. And I do use compact fluorescents, but they have other drawbacks, as well.
- They are more bulky and don't fit into some fixtures
- They are not compatible with dimmers in many cases
- I haven't found that they always live up to the stated equivalent wattage of incandescent bulb light output, and in particular I can't find 100W equivalents!
Regarding the color, sometimes it bothers me and other times not. I use a mixture of CF, standard incandescent, and a 300W halogen torchiere in my apartment (haven't moved into the house yet), but at night I'm most comfortable under the torchiere or my 100W clamp-on fixture with a moveable arm. I've had that baby since college, and I love it.
Look at the products offered by http://www.efi.org.
They have some CFL's that are dimable with ordinary dimmers and they also have so 100w equilant bulbs.
We can get 100W equivalent in CFL at Target, Home Depot, etc.
It's true that CFL lamps will not fit in every fixture, but there are new shapes coming out all the time.
CFLs are dimmable in the right kind of CFL fixture. I'm actually pulling out all the dimmers in my house. Pointless, wherever I might use a dimmer, I'd be better off with mood lighting. And dimming doesn't save energy.
Halogen torchieres are so lethal they are banned from most university dorms at this point. I believe the fire at Seton Hall University that killed several students was started by one of these.
The trajectory in energy prices is going one way....