New construction, I’m the HO, about to meet with the ‘lectrician next week. I made a list the last home I built years back about what should be home run in the electrical side of things. Lost the list.
Any suggestions and rationale would be appreciated, and thanks.
Four 2200-sq.-ft. detached homes provide flexible open-plan housing on this Los Angeles block.
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all the low voltage stuff. should be home run
aside from that I won't be much help since I have only ever run EMT in houses.......
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., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
Edited 1/19/2008 12:32 pm by maddog3
You might consider putting some empty conduits in the walls so that future electrical work can be routed with ease.
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Great idea, thanks!
You can read my thread about "bad GFCI's" nearby. I guess one lesson is that if you can afford it, it might be worth springing for the GFCI breakers instead of protecting the circuits at the first outlet. I guess the breakers are more durable--I'd never heard that before.More to your question: I'm a fan of plenty of power to the kitchen. As I described in the other thread I put all sorts of circuits into our kitchen. Kitchen appliances are getting pretty power hungry. The big things (refrig., dishwasher, etc.) are all going "energy star", but just about every appliance that sits on the counter is pulling 6-10 Amps. The other place I ran a home run was the computer/desk area. Lots of power-hungry things there too. Seems everything has a battery these days. I have more chargers than I have desk space.Also a (some) dedicated circuit(s) to any kind of shop/work area that you have. In my case, I don't have a garage, so if I want to set up the real power hungry tools (table saw, chop saw, etc.) I'm in the back yard. I have a 2-gang plug out back that is two separate 20A circuits.Some of this is overkill, but it's easy to do now when the walls are open, and hard (i.e. expensive) to do later. I'll second what everyone says about some conduit in key places. I have one that goes from my crawlspace into the panel, so if I want to add a circuit, I'm not running any fish tapes around inside the wall by the 200 Amp feeder.Good luck.-Rich
don't forget about at least 2 2" conduits going frm the basement to the attic
subpanels
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, wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
Somewhat depends on what you can afford.
If you are hiring the work done and are not a multi-millionaire, your options are limited.
100% asgree with extra conduit everywhere you can .
Outlets at least within 2 feet of any wall space.
Ten separate 20A circuits for the kitchen
Outlet strips and 20A plugs on the back of every bed.
Hardwired 3 conductor smoke and CO alarms, HC detectors also.
IMHO, go the cheapest GFCI that will satisfy codes, throw them out after inspections. Same with arc fault.
Foil shield coax to every wall in every room. Cat wireing a second choice. Fiber optic even better.
All lights computer controlled with RR7 or similar relays. All tied into your phone line and cell. Same for alarm system.
5 minimum 50A 240 V outlets in the shop and garage and barn.
Computer intertie to the heating system and water heating.
Individual circuits to each room lighting.
All outlets and lighting separate.
Individual or multiple circuits to each room's outlets, computer controlled also.
Individual circuit to dedicated outlet strip near each bed and desk.
Watt hour sensors on all appliances (tied into computer)
Fluorescent or LEd lighting exclusively.
Switched outlets for each area where Christmas lighting is anticipated.
BTW, all of the above can be done DIY (depending on laws in your area) for about the samw price of hiring an electrician to do a standard spec house garble -- assuming you are willing to read a lot and follow a few safety guidelines religiously.
junkhound, thanks for the great list. Why all the tie-ins ot the computer? I can see wanting to control hvac from the phone or a computer for when you return home after a long trip, limk might be done in a cabin or seasonal home, but why the rest of it?
And can you suggest good resources for directions to follow for doing these myself? I have the leeway and a bit of weekend time to dedicate to this project, but I have to be confident I am doing things correctly.
Thanks again
but why the rest of it?
Control freak?? Saving $$ to pay for the system?
The facility power guys at the company I work for can monitor the power consumption and what lights are on in hundreds of different buildings from their laptops, and suggest ways of saving big bucks - this really took off when the kW-hr price fiasco hit in 2001. One item was really subtle - one plant used laser alignment for air conditioning fan belts, another did not, surprisingly, it was reallly BIG bucks in energy difference. (Talking 20 acre sized buildings here)
Own house was built in '72-'74, no PCs yet then so do not have all that I described myself. Lots of hardwire logic still in own house, over 5 miles of control wiring (bought surplus of course) . Monitoring now done with PICO PC interties, still mostly use simple diode logic for lighting control with old GE RR3 relays/switches.
Here are a couple of links:
http://www.picotech.com/data.html
I looked for RR7 relays, etc. The GE site provided this link:
http://www.jascoproducts.com/
BTW, the electrical in my house was over 15% of the total cost for materials (100% DIY), exceeded only by window costs.
Have FUN.
are these similar ?
http://www.passandseymour.com/pdf/T14.pdf.
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IMHO, go the cheapest GFCI that will satisfy codes, throw them out after inspections.
Can you elaborate? Do you think GFI protection is unnecessary?
Can you elaborate?
Dont get me started.
GFCI are the biggest rippoff since (you supply the event). Arc fault even bigger.
Numbers I've seen and come up with is over $30 million in expenditues for each life saved. Cost/ benefit ratio? Better spent on auto safety requirements and electrical education.
If it is yours, OK, wortha any amount, but awareness not to work on live 460 V circuit when you are outside and you are getting salt spray off the marina is worth even more.
How much is inconvienience worth?
The ONLY GFCIs in my own house are about 50 of them in a box in the basement for whatever. Not a single one connected anywhere, what a pain.
I designed part of a GFCI for the space station, a bunch or weenies in Hunstville were safety freaks, added on arc fault, low (< 1 mA) requirements, etc. etc, etc. Anyway, look at it sideways and it trips. All disabled now IIRC.
When Daziel came up with the idea of GFCI in '71, I thought it was good, even built a whole house GFCI for own house. DUMB, not practical.
Nuisance trips suck.
That enough elaboration?
PS: Worked with a fellow who was on the NFPA code writing panel for NEC back then. Man, were the manufacturers of apparatus ever chomping at the bit to be able to require GFCI.
Qualifier: I'm not an electrician or GC. Just a homeowner DIY type that has done a fair amount of wiring (all to code -- I hope!).
I think Junkhound covered the high side of the wish list. However, if you want to do something more modest, you might try what I do when I add circuits or wire a new space. The tendency, at least, from my experience, is for the electricians to wire several adjoining outlets to the same circuit because that's the easiest thing to do & it saves materials & labor. That sometimes causes problems because many people tend to cluster their electrical loads in one area, e.g., kitchen -- microwave, toaster oven, crock pot, etc.; entertainment area -- audio & video equipment; garage -- grinders, shop vacs, saws, etc. By using about the same number of circuits but leap-frogging the outlets so that you don't have any two adjacent outlets on the same circuit you can avoid a lot of loading problems. Where you anticipate high loads it might be worthwhile to install, for example, two duplex outlets from different circuits adjacent to each other instead of a double duplex box on a single circuit. You can also split the circuits such that if you anticipate one section of a circuit being a high load area, put the remaining outlets on that circuit in low use, or infrequently used areas. All of that takes some planning on your part & close coordination with the electrician. It's not something they can do for you. And, many may consider it a major PITA because they have to follow an unusual plan rather than doing things the "standard" way. It'll definitely cost more.
There is another way to prepare for adding future circuits that would be less costly than having the conduit installed on interior walls -- if your house plan would allow. A friend of mine used this in his house & it worked well for him. Everywhere the top plates are accessible from the attic, you can drill a small hole, drop a weighted heavy string to the bottom in the center of each stud bay, tie or nail the string off on the top plate & caulk the hole. Then if you need a new switch or outlet, it's just a matter of grabbing the string to finish snaking the line.
bd, great input, thanks!
Yeah, that's the logic behind code for counter outlets. It makes sense for the whole house. Those cute corner fireplace units use 1500 watts on the 'high' setting.Watch the meter spin.
Along a similar vein, you can run the wires in an unfinished basement below or attic above, and send a wire directly up the wall from a junction box at each receptacle. This keeps the wires more accessible than if they pass through studs in the wall, and it will be easy to convert a particular outlet to a home run in the future for whatever needs you haven't thought of (or haven't been invented yet).
With a junction box in the basement or attic below each receptacle you needn't worry about having enough slack in the cable to add a future splice box , which may be a problem if you run the wire up to the box and back down. You can run a few extra cables from a basement box to the attic to allow for future second floor circuits, or a conduit sealed with fire caulk for future use.
I'm not an electrician, so I'm not sure if there are any code issues I've not thought of on any of this. I'd be interested in hearing their input on this idea. I would avoid having two different circuits in the same box - a new box could be nailed next to the original for the new home run.
Rich's perspective on GFCI's and AFCI's is certainly unique .... and differs somewhat from my recollections of their adoption. No point in chasing after red herrings, though. Last I checked, code compliance was not an option, it was a requirement.
Now ... you say you're wondering what to tell the electrician? Well, I wouldn't worry about telling him 'how many home runs,' etc. Rather, I'd have a floor plan ready, with the locations and details of just about every appliance, and piece of furniture, you can think of. And ... BE HONEST! If you plan to use the garage as a shop, add a hot tub, use a room as an office .... the electrician NEEDS to know this stuff to do a good job.
Just a few design observations, though .....
As far as I'm concerned, 'sub-panels' are in fashion, big time! It's pretty easy for a kitchen alone to call for a dozen circuits. There's little convenience in having to go around the back of the house, to the main panel, when you pop a breaker in the master bedroom. In the garage, the 'mechanical' equipment is often placed ... which means the garage itself may need a dozen circuits as well.
Additional panel space may also make for a more 'owner friendly' panel directory. Wouldn't it be nice if every room had it's own breaker - and the panel directory made sense?
Anyway, that's the secret to good design: to know what you are trying to accomplish. It's not a matter of 'meeting code.' Rather, a good design almost automatically meets code. Or codeS. Many differing codes are adopting rules that, while not strictly speaking 'electrical' in nature, have a direct impact on the work the electrician does. Also, in almost every case, an electrician working to a 'common sense' design has probably been meeting these new requirements for decades before there was a rule.
Additional panel space may also make for a more 'owner friendly' panel directory. Wouldn't it be nice if every room had it's own breaker - and the panel directory made sense?
Do you mean each room having a panel of its own in the room? I could see that for some rooms, but you actually have to design for that at the beginning in some cases or there is not a spot for it. I have not planned for that in my plan, but I see the benefit of not running down 2 sets of stairs to get a tripped breaker when my wife runs rthe hair dryer in the master bathroom.
Is this what you are calling a subpanel?
Not a sub-panel in each room.But maybe one on each floor.What is talking about is each circuit. One circuit might be MBR receptacles And the breaker panel would be so labled. Compared with one that is now labeled 2nd fl bedroom and covers the receptacles and lights for 3 bedrooms.Personaly I like the British Ring Circuit system.Each ring circuit consists of a 230v, 30 amp circuit and the both end of the cable connect at the panel. The best that I can figure it uses approx #12 wire because of the ring (loop).And each plug has fuses in it to match the load.That bascially makes each receptacle into a sub-panel.Really great for a kitchen. It will supply all of the power needed in a kitchen (except for a stove) with one circuit..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
No, I do not mean a panel in every room. Let me elaborate some. I mean running the circuits so that, for example, everything in the master bedroom is off one breaker, and that there is a breaker in the panel marked "master bedroom." You see, it is a common practice in cheaper homes to have all the receptacles in a wall on the same circuit. This saves on wire for the contractor. It's also easier for him.
Unfortunately, doing so often results in say, the north face of the bedroom and the south wall of the living room being on the same circuit, and other walls in the same room being on different circuits. Once finished with that one wall section, the circuit then continues to another section ... and so on. This practice results in circuits that seem to hop around at random (making troubleshooting harder) ... and a label in the panel that simply says 'receptacles.' Not much help, that. Now, as for sub-panels ..... that is, clusters of breakers fed by a larger breaker in the 'main' panel ....
Let's first imagine a two-storey house with an attached two (or three) car garage. Nothing extraordinary there. I could see such a house having four smaller panels scattered around, in addition to the "main."
The "main" would serve the 'sub' panels.
The garage would have a panel, not only because the owner might use it as a workshop ... but also because garages often need several circuits. Separate circuits are desired for freezers and washers. The clothes dryer needs two spaces. Then there are the "mechanicals" ... the furnace, the water heater, the driveway show melting equipment, the air conditioning, the water filter, the central vacuum, etc. This stuff is often set in, or near, the garage. The kitchen would have a panel. One can easily wind up with a dozen circuits in the kitchen. Counter (2), lighting (1), Stove (2), Range Hood/Microwave (1) ... that's six required right there. Additional separate circuits you might desire are refrigerator, Dishwasher/disposal, trash compactor, bread machine, and a second lighting circuit. That panel's filling up. The rest of the house would be served by two panels ... one upstairs, and one downstairs.
Again, this challenges another 'economy' wiring practice ... having a circuit serve areas both upstairs and downstairs. Saves wire, but isn't very user-friendly. It's a bit annoying when both the master bedroom and the den go out at the same time.
may as well run everything in EMT as well instead of NMthere, I said it.
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may as well run everything in EMT as well instead of NM
there, I said it
You mean run everything in Eastern Montana instead of New Mexico?? That won't help me, as I am in Michigan!
funny guy...:)I meant Electrical Metallic Tubing or Thinwall. insteaad of Non Metallic cable....errrr Romexyou're in Michigan, what a coincidence, I'm in indiana.
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I see what you are saying now. I have often wondered why the basement bathroom and the main floor living room were on the same circuit--ease of installation, laziness and poor planning come to mind.
Here is what I gather from all these posts: use low-voltage and energy-saving lights wherever possible. Plan things out logically with the way the house will actually be used to group things that should be grouped. Have enough capacity in areas that are likely to draw a lot of electricity. Consider placing sub-panels in the home. Plan for future needs with conduit or other means (drop-string, etc.). Talk it all over with electrician before starting the work, and be prepared to pay more for added materials and time. Consider DIY if willing to put enough time into learning to do it properly.
Am I missing anything?
I gave no perspective, I just asked Junkhound to elaborate.
We've been in our house 3 yrs. My thoughts:
Edited 1/20/2008 6:29 pm ET by daveinnh
Excellent tips, added to the stack!