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electrical problem

stumped | Posted in General Discussion on October 17, 2007 12:44pm

I have a house which was completely rewired from the power company’s transformer to the last receptacle. All the plumbing is also new. Prior to doing this work, the plumbing carried a current. It still does. If a voltmeter is attached to any copper pipe and the other lead is grounded into the dirt floor of the crawlspace, voltage is detected. This voltage is directely proportional to the amount of current being used at that time. For example, if only some lights are on the meter reads 1 volt. If the microwave and toaster are on it reads 2 volts. Turn on the electric stove and it reads 6 volts. If all are on together the meter will read the sum (9 volts) etc.. I have read as high as 20 volts with the electric heat on. All circuits but 1 can be turned off at the panel, and if a load is placed on that circuit, voltage will be detected in the plumbing. This can be any circuit, 220V or 110V.

The problem is not in the water heater and the house is properly grounded. Several electricians , a bevy of power company workers and myself are stumped. Anybody out there any smarter?


Edited 10/16/2007 5:49 pm ET by stumped

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Replies

  1. DanH | Oct 17, 2007 01:09am | #1

    Is it possible that the voltage is coming from the earth in the crawlspace, rather than the pipe? Have you tried measuring against another reference, preferably a ground rod driven some distance from anything else, and with no other connections on it?

    In any event, it sounds like you have a bad ground connection somewhere. Someone with decent trouble-shooting skills should be able to find the point in the grounding system where there's a voltage between things that are supposed to be connected, and then narrow in on the bad connection.

    If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
    1. User avater
      jarhead2 | Oct 17, 2007 01:32am | #2

      Possible that the house or electrical ground and the pipe ground are on the same rod? 

       

       

       

      “Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.”                Reagan....

      Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. -Truman Capote

      1. DanH | Oct 17, 2007 02:01am | #3

        The house electrical ground and the pipe should be "bonded" together. There should be at least one separate ground rod, also "bonded" with the others. This collection of grounds should in turn be "bonded" to the incoming neutral line at exactly one point, near the service entrance.If a voltage is detected between these various elements it's either because the required electrical connections aren't there or because one of the elements is carrying a current it shouldn't. (There should be no current in any of the ground system elements.)One possible place where there can be a problem is the notorious "open neutral" problem, where there's a bad connection in the neutral line from the pole (or on the pole). This is fairly easy to identify because if you turn on several loads on one side of the 240V line you'll see the voltage on that side dip dramatically (measured to the panel's neutral) and the voltage on the other side rise by an equal amount. In such a situation all the unbalanced neutral current is being carried by the ground, resulting in a "high" ground potential roughly equal to the dip/rise measured on the two hots.

        If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

        1. User avater
          jarhead2 | Oct 17, 2007 02:23am | #5

          I see about the bonding issue.

           That is basically what I was leading up to was the bad neutral. I had corrosion on my meter base, actually behind it where the service comes to the meter. The neutral was very corroded because water was entering the top of the meter base box. I kept getting shocked, especially in the garage working with tools. Even the air compressor would get my attention when using a dang nail gun, presumably from the moisture in the compressor air. 

           

           

           

          “Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.”                Reagan....

          Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. -Truman Capote

          1. sledgehammer | Oct 17, 2007 04:25am | #6

            I don't really know that much about this, so I'll throw this out there for discussion.

             

            If it were me, I'd disconnect the plumbing where it enters the house. I'd then test both the exterior and interior plumbing runs to narrow down where the power is comming from.

             

            Am I wrong?

          2. stumped | Oct 17, 2007 04:56am | #8

            The plumbing supply line from the street is 400' of PVC which changes to copper under the house, so it is effectively disconnected where it enters the house. The voltage readings are the same no matter where they are taken- under the house or at the brass hose bibs(where you will get jolted if you turn on the water standing in a puddle with bare feet). The sewage goes to a septic tank so no possibility of electrical input there.

        2. stumped | Oct 17, 2007 04:33am | #7

          The house electrical ground and pipes are both grounded on the same 8' grounding rod which is bonded to the neutral at the service entrance. There is an additional grounding rod 75' away grounding the pipe. These latter 2 grounds can be disconnected or connected but nothing changes.The power company just changed out the transformer and their cable to my weather head but that didn't help. My house is 400' from the road and therefore, I have a pole with transformer in my yard. Is it possible that they could have hooked up the new one in the same incorrect manner as the old one? Or is it possible that the problem lies further upstream?Remember, this problem existed before the house was completely rewired from the weather head to the last receptacle and ditto with the plumbing. It, therefore, seems unlikely that the same conditions would be repeated to cause the problem to remain.

          1. DanH | Oct 17, 2007 05:02am | #9

            > The house electrical ground and pipes are both grounded on the same 8' grounding rod which is bonded to the neutral at the service entrance. There is an additional grounding rod 75' away grounding the pipe.It sounds to me like you're missing a ground. You have to have at least two grounds. If the water pipe is plastic you need a second grounding rod.
            If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

          2. User avater
            BillHartmann | Oct 17, 2007 07:13am | #11

            2005 NEC says that if you use a ground rod and it does not test less than 25 ohms then you need 2 of them. Regardless of the if the water pipe is also a ground electrode or not.I have heard that this has been the requirement for a while. But the wording was poor so that it was miss interpreted in older version. I have not tried reading the different versions to see if this is acurate or not..
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

  2. northeastvt | Oct 17, 2007 02:12am | #4

    stumped,

     I hooked up mobile home,and the owner said he was getting a pretty good tingle in the shower ,when he would touch the valve. I checked between metal siding and ground rod, service disconnected, 32 volts.. It was coming in thru the neutral via the transformer. Electric company fixed it. Something to do with the transformer wiring. Same thing at a house about 1/3 of a mile away, tingle when you touch a pipe in the basement. Foreman said "I told them not to hook them up like that anymore!). If you shut the main off, and check between neutral and a good ground, there should not be a reading..

    northeastvt

  3. JLMCDANIEL | Oct 17, 2007 05:21am | #10

    It sounds like you have a high resistance connection someplace in your common/ground connections. It could be a corroded connection on the ground rod or on the pipes. It could also be your main wires coming to the breaker box. In a lot of locations they use aluminum wires for the mains and they need periodic tightening of the screw connections in the box and anti oxidation grease. You should only have one ground rod otherwise you can get into a situation called a ground loop.

    Another problem may be the drought, if you area is like ours this year, , without proper moisture content an earth  rod may not be a reliable ground.  Try running water on the ground rod for 10 or 15 minutes then check for current on the pipes.

    Jack

    1. User avater
      BillHartmann | Oct 17, 2007 07:21am | #12

      " You should only have one ground rod otherwise you can get into a situation called a ground loop"ABSOLUTELY NOT!In fact the NEC requires that a ground rod used as a ground electrode be either tested to be less than 25 ohms are two be used. And since the test is specialized it is usually not done and 2 ground rods automatically used.Also the NEC list a number of ground electrodes that, if they exists, must all be used. "It sounds like you have a high resistance connection someplace in your common/ground connections. It could be a corroded connection on the ground rod or on the pipes.""Another problem may be the drought, if you area is like ours this year, , without proper moisture content an earth rod may not be a reliable ground. "No to both.What is the purpose of a ground electrode system?Under normal conditions the ground electrode system does not carry any current. It could be completely disconnected at the house and there would be no difference in the house. If there are then it indicates that there is something else in the system that is wrong..
      .
      A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

      1. JLMCDANIEL | Oct 17, 2007 08:19am | #14

        In fact the NEC requires that a ground rod used as a ground electrode be either tested to be less than 25 ohms are two be used. And since the test is specialized it is usually not done and 2 ground rods automatically used.

        25 ohms between where and where?

        Under normal conditions the ground electrode system does not carry any current. It could be completely disconnected at the house and there would be no difference in the house. If there are then it indicates that there is something else in the system that is wrong.

        This statement is incorrect. The purpose of the ground rod is to make sure the the potential between common and the ground that you may come in contact with are is 0, this is a saftey issue. Even the wires from the pole to the house have resistance and therefor voltage drop. Without this ground tie the voltage between common and ground could be several volts and any thing making contact between them would then carry current.  If the ground wire on the transformer should become damaged the common could be floating and the difference in potential with out the ground rod could be thousands of volts between common and ground. If you don't believe so hook up a 1 to 1 transformer some time without one leg being tied to ground and check the voltage of the two output legs to ground.

        Jack

        Edited 10/17/2007 1:20 am ET by JLMCDANIEL

        Edited 10/17/2007 1:25 am ET by JLMCDANIEL

        1. User avater
          BillHartmann | Oct 17, 2007 05:09pm | #17

          "25 ohms between where and where?"Between the ground electrode and THE EARTH. Sine the earth does not have simple contact point to put the 2nd lead of an ohmmeter it requires special tests.http://mikeholt.com/newsletters.php?action=display&letterID=107
          http://www.ecpzone.com/print/Power-Quality-World/Testers-That-Are-Well-Grounded-/3$2814
          http://ecmweb.com/grounding/electric_ground_testing_techniques/"Under normal conditions the ground electrode system does not carry any current. It could be completely disconnected at the house and there would be no difference in the house. If there are then it indicates that there is something else in the system that is wrong.This statement is incorrect. The purpose of the ground rod is to make sure the the potential between common and the ground that you may come in contact with are is 0, this is a saftey issue. Even the wires from the pole to the house have resistance and therefor voltage drop. Without this ground tie the voltage between common and ground could be several volts and any thing making contact between them would then carry current. If the ground wire on the transformer should become damaged the common could be floating and the difference in potential with out the ground rod could be thousands of volts between common and ground. If you don't believe so hook up a 1 to 1 transformer some time without one leg being tied to ground and check the voltage of the two output legs to"Note I said NORMAL conditions. That means no broken connections (other than the one to the ground electrode system at the house, no faults, no lighting strikes. I did not say that the ground electrode system did not serve a usefull purpose and that it was not needed for safety.That gets us down to only this statement." The purpose of the ground rod is to make sure the the potential between common and the ground that you may come in contact with are is 0, this is a saftey issue. Even the wires from the pole to the house have resistance and therefor voltage drop."Now lets look at a 200 amp service with 100 ft service drop.That would be 0.122 ohms (2/0 CU) or 0.100 (4/0 AL).In his case the ground electrode measured 2 ohms. If the resitance at the pole electrode is the same the the ground path between the pole and house would be 4 ohms. Almost zero current would flow through that path IF THE NEUTRAL WAS INTACT. And if the neutral was broken then the resitance would be too high to make it an affective path.And note that the resitance can be much higher..
          .
          A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          1. JLMCDANIEL | Oct 18, 2007 03:52am | #40

            Bill,

            I will defer to your expertise on this as my experience has been in industrial controls where ground loops are not only a fact but a pain in the behind. I do however have a couple of questions.

             The earth does have resistance and the resistance is affected by multiple conditions as stated in the quote below from your link.

            Soil Resistivity The earth’s ground resistance is directly impacted by the soil’s resistivity, which varies throughout the world. Soil resistivity is influenced by the soil’s electrolytes, which consist of moisture, minerals, and dissolved salts. Because soil resistivity changes with moisture content, the resistance of any grounding (earthing) system will vary with the seasons of the year. Since moisture becomes more stable at greater distances below the surface of the earth, grounding (earthing) systems appear to be more effective if the grounding electrode can reach the water table. In addition, having the grounding electrode below the frost line helps to ensure less deviation in the system’s resistance year round.

            With high drought conditions like we have had here couldn't that create a high resistance difference between the ground rod and the service  ground?"

            If yes, wouldn't that create  a high resistance current path back to the pole ground or am I missing something?

            Jack

          2. User avater
            BillHartmann | Oct 18, 2007 04:04am | #41

            "With high drought conditions like we have had here couldn't that create a high resistance difference between the ground rod and the service ground?"If yes, wouldn't that create a high resistance current path back to the pole ground or am I missing something?"Yes, but don't forget that the neutral is suppose to be carrying all of the current..
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

  4. User avater
    BillHartmann | Oct 17, 2007 07:32am | #13

    " All the plumbing is also new. Prior to doing this work, the plumbing carried a current"

    That test indicates that the pluming is "carrying a current"? Has an ampmeter been put on the pipes any place to see if there is any current?

    "If a voltmeter is attached to any copper pipe and the other lead is grounded into the dirt floor of the crawlspace, voltage is detected."

    That does not mean that any current is flowing through the pipes.

    "This can be any circuit, 220V or 110V."

    If this problem occures on 240 volt loads then there won't be any neutral current so a bad neutral connection to the transformer would not cause this.

    Sounds like it is a bad neutral connection on the primary side. The currnent on the primary side is being returned through the earth rather than through the primary neutral.

    .
    .
    A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
    1. stumped | Oct 17, 2007 04:17pm | #15

      I didn't check the pipes with an ampmeter. However, I got a good jolt from touching the pipe.
      The service entrance ground tested at about 2 ohms.
      Your comment "sounds like it is a bad neutral connection on the primary side" is very interesting. Would you please explain it in more detail and also how I might check/fix this bad connection. Thanks.

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Oct 17, 2007 04:41pm | #16

        The primary supply is typically in the 7 to 14 kilovolt range.If you look at a pole the basic arrangement is that the wire on the top is the neutral. Below is is the hot wire, single phase, or a cross arm with 3 wires, 3 phase.The neutral is also grounded at each pole with a transformer and maybe at other poles.A common ground electrode on a pole (at least in this area) is a coil of copper wire that is burried under the but of the pole.There are several different styles of transformers, but commonly they have 4 terminals. One for the high voltage (primary), 2 for the low voltage (240) to the house.The 4th is center tape for for the 240 and also the 2nd terminal for the primary transformer winding.On the pole that 4th terminal is connected to the primary neutral, the ground electrode, and the house drop neutral.If the connection from the transformer to the primary is bad then the return current from the transformer primary has to from through the ground electrode at the pole and/or through your neutral to your ground electrode and from there to the nearest poles with ground electrodes to get back to the primary neutral.Note, the bad connection to the primary neutral does not need to be on your pole, but could be on one upstream.I believe some transformer have separate connections on the transformer for the primary neutral and the secondard neutral and they are joined externally. But electrically the same..
        .
        A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

        1. stumped | Oct 17, 2007 06:07pm | #19

          Thanks Bill. You really understand this stuff. I think you've got the answer. I'm fowarding your analysis to Georgia Power so they can take action.

        2. woodturner9 | Oct 17, 2007 09:04pm | #24

          If the connection from the transformer to the primary is bad then the return current from the transformer primary has to from through the ground electrode at the pole and/or through your neutral to your ground electrode and from there to the nearest poles with ground electrodes to get back to the primary neutral.

          I've not seen the situation you describe cause the problem the OP cited.  What do you think would be the return path to induce a voltage in the pipe?

          I, too, am a little puzzled by how the OP thinks he is measuring voltage in "dirt".  Perhaps he will explain a bit more. 

          The other odd part is that the power company should know to look for the kind of problem you described - it's not that uncommon, and something they usually test for, at least around here and in my experience.

          1. User avater
            BillHartmann | Oct 17, 2007 09:56pm | #31

            "What do you think would be the return path to induce a voltage in the pipe?"There has been no evidence give nor claims on my part that there is any voltage induced in the copper pipe.You do not have to have a voltage induced into the pipe to see the symptoms that he was reporting.As to your question in your other message he has already answered it."All circuits but 1 can be turned off at the panel, and if a load is placed on that circuit, voltage will be detected in the plumbing. This can be any circuit, 220V or 110V"http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=95850.1"The problem is not in any individual circuit. This can be demonstrated by cutting off every circuit but one. Put a load on that circuit and you will have a voltage reading in the pipes. Turn that circuit off and load another and the result is the same. This would be the same as unplugging appliances."http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=95850.22.
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

  5. Sasquatch | Oct 17, 2007 05:22pm | #18

    I had a similar problem once.  It turned out to be a nail driven into a wire.

  6. mike4244 | Oct 17, 2007 06:16pm | #20

    I am looking at this from a completely different perspective.It is also possible that an appliance could cause this. I am not an electrician, but I had a similar experience.

    Years ago I was running a large construction job. The carpenters doing the accoustical ceilings complained to me that they were getting shocked installing the grid. We had two electrical contractors on site,one for base building and another for some of the tenant work.Neither could find the source of the problem,though both admitted their was something amiss. I called in another electrical contractor that was due to start in a couple of months on more of the tenant work.

    He traced the problem to a welding machine used by the steam fitters. After disconnecting the machine the problem was solved. Try unplugging a electrical device in the house, then see if you still have a problem.If this solves the problem ,plug one device in at a time.When you get a tingle you isolated the fauly appliance.

    mike

    1. stumped | Oct 17, 2007 06:56pm | #21

      The problem is not in any individual circuit. This can be demonstrated by cutting off every circuit but one. Put a load on that circuit and you will have a voltage reading in the pipes. Turn that circuit off and load another and the result is the same. This would be the same as unplugging appliances.

      1. DanH | Oct 17, 2007 08:31pm | #22

        This continues to sound most like an open neutral in the service drop.
        If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

        Edited 10/17/2007 1:31 pm by DanH

        1. stumped | Oct 17, 2007 09:53pm | #30

          Dan,
          I did that test you suggested earlier concerning an open neutral. I put load on one side of the panel and measured the voltage across the neutral-no change. Ditto the other side of the panel. Does that rule out an open neutral in the service drop?

          1. DanH | Oct 17, 2007 09:58pm | #32

            You measured the voltage from where to where?
            If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

          2. stumped | Oct 17, 2007 10:59pm | #36

            The voltage is measured between any copper pipe and the soil beneath it by inserting the voltmeter probe into the dirt.
            My body also measures it if I am forgetful enough to turn on a brass hosebib with bare feet and the ground is damp. If a heavy appliance like the stove is on you get a very unpleasant jolt.

          3. DanH | Oct 17, 2007 11:06pm | #38

            Problem is, we don't know if the voltage is coming from the copper pipe or the soil.
            If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

          4. sledgehammer | Oct 18, 2007 12:29am | #39

            Are you really sure the problem is present when using 220v. Some stoves use 110v for the burners, 220v kicks in for oven and broiler... do you have an electric dryer by chance?

          5. stumped | Oct 18, 2007 05:01am | #42

            sledgehammer,Yes, I am sure. I don't have an electric dryer but the problem occurs with the heatpump (240V) or with the stove and oven on.

        2. User avater
          BillHartmann | Oct 17, 2007 09:59pm | #33

          How can it be a bad neutral on the service drop if the problem occures with both 120 and 240 loads?.
          .
          A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

  7. woodturner9 | Oct 17, 2007 08:59pm | #23

    If a voltmeter is attached to any copper pipe and the other lead is grounded into the dirt floor of the crawlspace, voltage is detected.

    Had a similar problem in a house a while back.  Turned out that the HVAC guy had pulled a LV wire to tight, and the ductwork cut through the insulation.  Pipe was against the ductwork and conducted a small amount of current, so we got a few volts on the pipe.

    You might want to look carefully for a wire shorted to the pipe - and look for a moderate resistance short, not just a dead short.

    What happens if you turn off all the breakers but one?  Do you still get the voltage in the pipe?  What if you turn off all the breakers but the main?  What if you turn off the main?  Isolating to a single breaker would confirm a problem related to a particular circuit (such as the cut wire hypothesis), or if it's independent of the breaker, suggest a problem upstream (i.e. on the power company side).

    1. stumped | Oct 17, 2007 10:16pm | #34

      Woodburner9,If all breakers but one are off and there is a load on that one, you will get a reading. No load on that one-no reading. Main breaker off-no reading.Main breaker on but no load anywhere in the house-no reading.

  8. renosteinke | Oct 17, 2007 09:11pm | #25

    With this, and other 'stray voltage' problems, you need to be systematic.

    First you must recognize that the voltage may come from two places: your side of the meter, or the PoCo side.

    Turn off your main breaker. Is the voltage still present? If so, it's not a problem on your side of the meter.
    If the problem goes away, turn your circuits on one at a time, until it returns. Now you know which circuit has the problem.

    From the PoCo perspective, they can identify the location of the problem by driving ground rods and comparing voltage readings.

    The hardest part is convincing folks that the problem is not somewhere in the house. That's where that first step becomes important.

    1. DanH | Oct 17, 2007 09:13pm | #26

      > Turn off your main breaker. Is the voltage still present? If so, it's not a problem on your side of the meter.On the other hand, if the voltage goes away that doesn't prove the problem's on your side of the meter, as in the case of an open neutral.
      If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

      1. renosteinke | Oct 17, 2007 09:31pm | #28

        I do not understand the situation you are describing. Care to explain it in detail?

        1. DanH | Oct 17, 2007 09:43pm | #29

          Doesn't require details. Just cut the neutral line from the pole -- open neutral. You'll get conditions at least superficially similar to what the OP describes.
          If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

    2. DanH | Oct 17, 2007 09:15pm | #27

      The hardest part is finding someone between the HO, HO's friends, sparkies, and the PoCo that actually understands electricity and wiring.
      If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

    3. stumped | Oct 17, 2007 10:41pm | #35

      Renosteinke,If the main is off there is no voltage.
      If the main is on there will only be voltage if something is on in the house. It makes no difference which circuit that appliance is on or if it is 120V or 240V. In other words, no individual circuit is at fault.The power company came out and measured resistance at the service entrance, voltage on the pipes and decided to change out the transformer. This didn't help. Thy didn't drive any ground rods for measurements.You are so right when you say "the hardest part is convincing folks that the problem is not in the house".

      1. DanH | Oct 17, 2007 11:05pm | #37

        OK, do this: Get something to serve as a ground rod -- a piece of rebar or all-thread or some such, and some sort of clamp to hold a wire on it (a small worm-drive hose clamp will work fine). Take the rod out into the yard about 10-15 feet from the house, not within 20 feet of the power lines or any known underground pipes, and not generally in the direction of the power pole.Drive the rod into the ground at lease a foot, then **pour a couple of buckets of water on top**. Clean an area on the rod, clamp the stripped end of an insulated wire (doesn't matter much what gage) to the rod, and bring the other end in near the breaker panel, taking care that the wire doesn't snag on something and get its insulation punctured.Find a ground connection and a neutral connection near the panel. For safety's sake, it's best to not go into the panel for this, but use, say the wide slot (neutral) and U slot (ground) of a utility outlet near the panel.Initially, connect one lead of an AC voltmeter to the house neutral and the other lead to the stripped end of the ground wire you brought into the house.Check voltage with everything off, with a known 120V load (several light bulbs, eg) on just the "A" side, with a known 120V load on just the "B" side, and with a known 240V resistive load (water heater, electric heat elements, electric oven, etc). Write down the voltages and, as close as you can determine, the size of the load in watts (or just tell us "oven"/"water heater"/whatever).Now repeat the above procedure with the voltmeter between the house ground (U slot) and your outside ground wire. (Or, of course, you can just move the voltmeter back and forth for each step above.)Finally, repeat while (carefully) measuring the voltage inside the panel between each 120V side and the neutral.Report your measurements.

        If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

        1. stumped | Oct 18, 2007 10:31pm | #43

          Dan,Here are he results from the test that you suggested.A piece if galvanized pipe was driven 3' into the ground in an isolated location. A length of 12 gage wire was clamped to it after a good buffing. Five gallons of water soaked into the ground around the pipe ensured a good ground. The wire was run to the panel and a voltmeter between this ground and the panel neutral read 1v. The reading to the panel ground was also 1v.For the 120V test I turned on a toaster oven and a microwave which are on a circuit on the left (A) side of thee panel. Connecting the rigged ground to the panel neutral (through a voltmeter) read 6v. Between the rigged ground and the panel ground also read 6V. Both the "A" side and the "B" side read 120v with this load on. I then repeated this after moving the toaster oven and microwave to a new location where they would be on a circuit on the right (B) side of the panel. All readings were the same as on the (A) side.For the 240v test I turned on the oven. The voltage between the rigged ground and the panel neutral was 8v. Between the rigged ground and the panel ground was also 8v. 120v was read on both sides with either the ground or neutral.I repeated this test using the heat pump. Everything was the same except that the voltage was 10v.I repeated the test again with both the heat pump and the oven on.
          Again, everything was the same except that the voltage was the sum of the previous readings (18v).I also experimented with disconnecting the two grounds. When the waterpipe ground was disconnected, the voltage ,(as read in the above-described test) increased by about 50%. When the ground to the service entrance was also disconnected, the reading was double that when both grounds were connected. For exammple, the heat pump went from 10v with both grounds connected, to 15v with one ground connected, to 25v with both grounds disconnected.
          Note that I can't completely unground the water pipes because the incoming line is buried for 30' before leaving the house and changing to PVC.Anything else you need to know?

          1. DanH | Oct 19, 2007 01:50am | #44

            The pole transformer's primary (high voltage) side neutral/ground connection to the utility company's high tension wires is bad, so it's grounding through the bare wire in your service drop.
            If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

          2. User avater
            BillHartmann | Oct 19, 2007 03:14am | #46

            http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=95850.14
            .
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          3. stumped | Oct 19, 2007 06:54pm | #50

            Dan H,
            Thanks very much for your help. You and Billhartman have reached the same conclusion. I now feel like I have enough evidence to get the power company moving. It took months, but they finally changed out the
            transformer on my pole which is on my property. That didn't change anything, however. I'm now going to get them to check upstream for a problem in the neutral. It will probably take a while, but I'll post the outcome.

          4. KHWillets | Oct 21, 2007 09:18pm | #52

            Is the voltage the same at every point in the plumbing system?

          5. stumped | Oct 24, 2007 04:28am | #53

            Sorry I was so late in responding. "Is the voltage the same over the whole plumbing system?"Yes. I noticed something interesting while checking around the house to answer your question. In one bath I left the old cast iron waste pipes in place. The rest of the house has pvc waste lines. I tested the cast iron and got the same reading as the copper supply lines (30v) with the stove on. I can't find any place where the two are in contact. Seems as if the cast iron is being electrified by the ground (soil). I'm still trying to get the power company out here to check the primary neutral, as suggested by earlier responders to this thread. They seem reluctant to say the least.

          6. northeastvt | Oct 19, 2007 01:53am | #45

            stumped'

              I replied at the beginning of this thread, and said it sounded like a problem I had run into on a couple of job's I had done a few years ago. But, not anymore, in those cases, there was voltage between the neutral, and ground with the panel disconnected. This really sounds like a loose, or very poor neutral somewhere. Between the appliances and the transformer.and since it is happening on both legs,(But don't try it with 220v breakers, because the difference in leg's will be going back to the neutral), I would guess the transformer neutral connection. Or maybe the neutral connection in the panel. The voltage is taking the easiest route, the ground,not the neutral. If you shut off the main, disc. all grounds, and still had voltage between the neutral and a good ground, it would be coming from the transformer. In my opinion;).

            northeastvt

            Edited 10/18/2007 7:52 pm ET by northeastvt

            Edited 10/18/2007 8:32 pm ET by northeastvt

          7. stumped | Oct 19, 2007 05:44pm | #49

            northeastvt,"If you shut off the main, disc. all grounds,......"The problem is only detectable when a load is on some circuit.
            If the main is disconnected there can be no load, so no voltage is detected beteen a good ground and the service entrance neutral.

            Edited 10/19/2007 11:22 am ET by stumped

          8. northeastvt | Oct 21, 2007 01:40am | #51

            stumped,

             I was referring to the problem I had on other jobs, the voltage was coming in on the neutral, I believe yours is trying to get out, via the ground, not the neutral.

            Northeastvt

  9. England1 | Oct 19, 2007 02:14pm | #47

    Just verifying the obvious ... are the neutrals and grounds on separate bars in the service entrance? Are the bars properly bonded? Are there any sub fed panels involved?

    1. stumped | Oct 19, 2007 05:24pm | #48

      "just verifying the obvious"Always a good idea. The service entrance is properly connected and there are no subpanels.

  10. terryb | Oct 24, 2007 06:52am | #54

    Had the same problem a few years ago. Was getting shocks from pipes to earth ground. It was a power leak to ground from the power company's high voltage line before it got to the transformer.

    1. stumped | Oct 24, 2007 06:02pm | #55

      terryb,Thanks for your reply. I'm going to show it to the power company
      when I get them out here. Should help to convince them that the problem is in their equipment and not mine.

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