I’ve got a question about subpanel wiring. I’m putting in a 60 Amp subpanel into a carriage house. There is power to the structure now, but the client doesn’t like the fact that the feed comes from overhead wires. Since they’re landscaping the backyard and have an open trench, they asked me to install a new breaker box with the wires run in conduit. So, I’ve run #4-3 wire in conduit through foundation, through a 90 and into a shutoff switch. My question regards the shutoff: Within the shut off panel (not the breaker box which will be above the shutoff) there are 7 screws. 4 of these leads are power leads, 2 much be for the neutrals, and the last single must be for the ground. Is that correct? Can I then pigtail the two grounds (Aluminum by the way) together and use the pigtail to go under the screw? The bus bar and ground bar are also separated in a subpanel, correct?
My second question regards upgrading from 100amps to 150amps. How do you tell what size meter socket/meter (from the power company.) that you have on the outside of the house? Is it printed on the meter? If you upgrade to a bigger panel and it’s only 50 amps do you have to put in a new meter socket? The reason I’m asking is that the wire leading from the master shutoff to the old breaker box is 2/aught(2/0) and can handle loads up to 200amps….
Any information or suggestions (besides call an electrician) are greatly appreciated!!!
Edited 2/28/2005 11:36 pm ET by Jack
Replies
When someone asks the question: ..."there are 7 screws. 4 of these leads are power leads, 2 much be for the neutrals, and the last single must be for the ground. Is that correct?"
It leads me to believe they don't know enough to ask the question in a manner that allows an intelligent answer. No big deal. Pick ten people on the streets and eight won't do any better.
But not knowing enough to ask the right question leads me to think you may not know enough to do the job correctly without risking property damage or risk to personnel.
You say: "Any information or suggestions (besides call an electrician) are greatly appreciated!!!"
I'm an electrician.
Call in an electrician before you or someone or something you care about gets hurt.
Electrical work isn't, at least in a lot of cases, complicated but you need the basics of essential knowledge. Most of all you have to know what you don't know and when to call in professionals. Not what you want to hear but this is valuable information.
Calling in an electrician costs money. I understand trying to save money. But compared to an ambulance ride or a visit by the firemen it is cheap.
Likely there are some bachelor journeyman electricians in your area that would do, or closely consult, for trade. Maybe some home cooking or whatever your skill set is. I have done this a few times. One hand washes the other.
Thanks for the quick reply even if it's not something that I wanted to read. I'm an apprentice plumber, but also have run a residential remodeling company for the last 5 years. I know how to run most electrical interior electrical applications, but I am confused on the direct shutoff that the electrical supply house gave me to install. I would have preferred to have an internal main breaker to turn off power to the structure, but the counter guy was adamant about using a separate shut off. Inside this box there exist 7 wiring lugs: 2 for the power leads leading into the box, 2 lugs for the power leaving the box; there are 3 lugs on a busbar underneath the two main fuses: THIS IS WHERE I AM CONFUSED: IF YOU HAVE 8 WIRES WHY ONLY 7 lugs? Do you pigtail the grounds together and put the pigtail under the odd lug? I realize you are being as helpful as possible; this isn't brain surgery, I just want to know the proper configeration for within a main shutoff box. I've installed subpanels before and understand the neutral bus must "float" and cannot be connected with the ground bus. Does this show I know enough about wiring to merit a reply, or do I need to go learn Ohm's law too?
In your first message you said that you where running 3 wires from the main building.But here you said that you have an isolated ground.That is not acceptable.
The 4-3 has four leads: 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground. What's wrong about that?
You had listed it as #4-3 wire.Which to me means 4 guage, 3 conductors.
How bout a picture?
Thanks for the reply Clay. I'll take a picture tomorrow at work and send it tomorrow night. Thanks for the assistance...
Just out of curiosity (since you haven't entered a profile), where in the US is a non-electrician allowed to do major electrical work for hire. In most parts of the US a HO can do electrical work on their own home, and in many areas a non-electrician can do minor work, but I've never heard of a place where you can do major work like this.
Second question: Did you pull a permit?
"Just out of curiosity (since you haven't entered a profile), where in the US is a non-electrician allowed to do major electrical work for hire. In most parts of the US a HO can do electrical work on their own home, and in many areas a non-electrician can do minor work, but I've never heard of a place where you can do major work like this."Lots of places.Here are a fewIndiana
Illinois
Iowa
Kansas
Missouri
New York
Ohiohttp://contractorsinternet.com/examphone.htmlNow a lot of the larger cities in those states have there own requirements.I know a guy in Long Island that had a cosmetics manfucturing plant and he does all of his own wiring for the plant.When he needs inspections he hires a private inspector.
2/0 copper is rated for 200 amps, yes. 2/0 aluminum is rated for 150 amps.
Jack,
Buy Cauldwell's "Wiring a House" (Taunton Press), and Traister's "Electrical Wiring Residential", DelMar Press. Read em, cover to cover.
Then find out what version of the NEC the local jurisdiction uses, and whether they have any local amendments.
Since you're doing this for profit, you have a moral and legal obligation to know what the fork you're doing. Patching together advice from a counterman and a bulliten board ain't going to get you there.
The issue isn't just those things that you know that you don't understand--like having too many wires. It's the many things that you don't have a clue that you need to know. Things that are important to the safety of the installed subpanel and wiring--stuff that won't prevent the installation from working normally, but will compromise the safety when something changes, or goes wrong. Like the need for grounding electrodes at the subpanel. If you run a 4-wire feeder, things will work without ground rods. But a lightning strike or a power line cross, and all hell may break loose if those ground rods aren't there. There are a lot of things like that in electrical.
I'll say it again, if a client is trusting you to do the work, you have an obligation to do it right. If you want to do electrical work like subpanel installation, do the heavy lifting and read a couple of books about it. Your other electrical work will probably benefit from it as well.
Cliff
He should listen to you on this IMHO.
I liked your joke. Thought you'd like an update. I went and consulted an electrician. The supply house shorted (punny) me on the main disconnect. They should have sold me a box with another grounding bar, not just the floating neutral. The MYSTERY extra lug is for bonding the neutral and the ground together if one was wiring with only three conductors instead of four (2 hots, 1 neutral, 1 ground) The electrician suggested adding an eight foot grounding rod (that I pounded into the ground with a sledge hammer) and grounding the ground bar to the earth. (Neutral stays isolated.) All connections were tightened with a tensioning screwdriver, all connections made correctly and aesthetically pleasing to look at.I own the NEC electrical code and have read plenty of books on wiring. My question was lazy and made me look like a hack, but I do care about what I do. I love remodeling. I am passionate about it, especially when it comes to making things safe for my clients, who I like to think of as family. (Though some parts of the family can be pains in the ####.) I love working on electric. I know I probably seem like a newbie to you, but it's really not the case. I chose to go to plumbing school because you can't pull permits in this state unless you're licensed. Until they start doing that in electric, I didn't see any reason to go to school for electric, even though I love reading about it and doing it.I think this forum is great. I thank Bill and you for taking the time to urge me to do the right thing. I truly enjoy reading about other people's exploits (especially that Blue eyed dude and Jeff Buck--they're funny) Anyway, I hope you all don't have a bad impression of me since I seemed like I didn't know #### about wiring. I don't know LOTS but I'm learning and will continue to recognize that I will never know it all----and must learn what you guys will allow me to glean from you comments. Thanks again...;)Edited 3/3/2005 12:51 am ET by JackEdited 3/3/2005 12:52 am ET by Jack
Edited 3/3/2005 1:12 am ET by Jack
Kind of interesting that you need a permit for potentially flooding a house but not potentially burning it - have been to "situations" with plumbers causing the fires but that involved torches and sweating pipes tight to the wall - three fires with extension cords to fish tanks -two were fish tanks with water that put out most of the fire when the tanks broke, third was an igauna tank - cooked lizard and one room taken out - whole lot of fires due to inproper wiring - like running the 220 line "above" the breaker panel and feeding the dryer directly from the meter - from the wife "my husband knows what he's doing - you mean that isn't right?" fortunately, the outlet failed, melted and that was it while I agree most electrical isn't that difficult - runnng a sub panel has an awful lot of potential for problems -get every thing in place and have an electrician make the connections to powerjust reread the previous - guess I could have left out the last line - sure a lot of guys on the "job" could also add "war stories" about poor wiring
Edited 3/3/2005 8:17 am ET by firedude
"Kind of interesting that you need a permit for potentially flooding a house but not potentially burning it"
That's what I've always thought too. But it's definitely that way in this part of Illinois. Roofers also need a license. But not GCs.
The only thing I can figure is that roofers and plumbers are (or have been) politically well connected, and have gotten the laws writen the way they wanted them.
Q: Why do drivers' education classes in redneck schools use the car only on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays?
A: Because on Tuesday and Thursday, the sex education class uses it.
Hey Firedude. Showing my green-ness here but can you explain what you meant by running 220 line above the breaker panel and why this is a problem? I've read Electrical Wiring Residential and have consulted NEC but I must have missed what you are referring to.
Thanks in advance.
Jonathan
basically the homeowner connected some probably 8-10 gauge wire to the lugs in the fuse box (old house - no breakers) above the main fuses - he had the current coming from the meter going directly to the 220 outlet that fed the dryer - fortunately, the wife was doing laundry in the afternoon and when the outlet started melting and smoking, she called"us" - electric co cut (disconnected) the tap to the house until he got somebody to do it rightthere (at least) 2 problems - the street current/voltage is feeding the dryer (some places, usually not residential, have 440 volts coming in) and there's no overload protection on the device, so it could keep drawing even after it's "failed" I also had a guy at the local hardware store telling me he could use 14/2 wire to supply the 220v plasma cutter in his garage (about 50 ft from the house) since the box said it was rated for 250v, he planned on a long "extension cord" off either the dryer or stove- nobody told him about the 50-60 amp of current it would have to carry - pointed out that it wouldn't work - recommend the subpanel (like the one that started this thread)things like that = job security
Ah. I read the original post earlier and didn't connect it with the updates today and didn't read back far enough. Thank you for the clarification.
The main problem that I had and I suspect that many of the others did was the whole concept of the disconnect switch.All of that made it look like a such a strange setup that no one could make heads or tails about it.Now if you had started off with saying that a HD employee had said that you needed the disconnect then everyone would have immediately gotten you back on the right track.
Old boss used to have a saying. Something along the lines of: Hacks and amateurs have their priorities:
1) Make it work.
2) make it look right.
3) Make it safe.Whereas an electrician has priorities:
1) Do it right and comply with the NEC.He only needs one. Because if you really do it right and follow the NEC it will, without any attention to them, work and be safe. Of course understanding the NEC, learning the NEC and how it applies on various jobs takes time. Several years at least to get a well rounded and competent journeyman electrician.Keeping up with the changes in the NEC, new methods and materials and refreshing the previous knowledge takes some effort every year.Gee if he can just give electrical work a bash without any study, theoretical understanding or practical teaching under a master why is he in an apprenticeship program for plumbers. A smart guy like this needs no such training.Everyone knows you only have to know three things to be a plumber:Payday is on Friday.
Hot on the left.
It flows down hill. Seeing as that I wrote that from memory I can now go out and work as a plumber. Cool.Of course I write this in fun but there is no substitute for training.
So you have the conduit and boxes in place, and the conductors pulled. That's most of it. How much would it cost to get an electrician to finish up? Maybe about $100?
-- J.S.