I just got a quote of $ 3,900 to run 100 amps service to my woodworking shed which is 200 (150 feet underground) feet from my fuse box. That may be a good quote, but I only have $ 2,000 to spend. I need to do the work myself and still do it to code.
I understand I need to use a # 1 wire and need advise on what wire and connections I need to purchase. Granted an electrician would be wonderful, but he is beyond the budget.
Can anyone out there give me advise on the 10 things I need to do to install electrical servise to the shed?
Thanks
Twotowers
Replies
I ran 100 amp to my garage, (150 feet) alot of plugs, alot of lights. six 240 receptacles. two subpanels. totally price was $600 material.
$180 was for the (4)#1 wire.
Most of that expense is digging the trench and pulling the wire inside conduit. The next big expense is probably the cost of the wire itself.
Maybe you could find an electrician willing to let you do the sweat-equity thing. Dig the trench yourself (to code depth of course). Buy the wire and pull it thru conduit. Then get the electrician to do the rest.
Get more quotes. That price is higher than what I've seen them charge to wire entire houses.
Why 100 amps?
If it is just woodworking tools and single user 60 is more than enough.
You can save some on the wire.
I disagree - 100A is not overkill. The cost difference between a 60A panel and a 100A panel is minimal.
I did not say anything about the panel.He can still install a 100 amp panel and in fact recommend one because of the number of spaces.It is 400 ft of wire that I was concerned about.
I need to run two 20 amp electric heaters for the winter.
Twotowers
"I need to run two 20 amp electric heaters for the winter."120 or 240 volt each?You load calculation will be based on the largest combination of equipment that you will be running at one time, BASED ON ACTUAL NAMEPLATE DATA.Typically might be a 3 hp cabinet saw and a 2 hp dust collector.That would be about 25 amps at 240.But a little for lighting.You would still have enough for 20 amps at 240 for heating.
the plan was two twenty amp fuses set aside for heating and cooling - plus lights, saw, tv, stereo, and 2 hp dust collector. 100 amps max.
twotowers
Bill,
I plan to run 110 exclusively - all my tools are set up for 110 and while they can be rewired for 220 - I just don't want to tempt fate.
TT
you need to run 220, one extra wire cheap right now, you might want a welder or air compressor later.
BB,
I am looking forward to the book How to wire a house because I am to dense to know how to do that. I guess what you suggest means running an extra 110 wire, but if that is dedicated and how to do that - well I am cluless.
I don't understand how the power is extended from the main service box in the basement to the shed. Do you draw power in front of the circut brakers where the power comes into the house, or do you draw from existing circut brakers? If it is the latter - that doesn't make sence to me.
Well I am struggeling. But, I will struggle till I know exactly what to do.
Best
TT
look, I did my whole house myself. its real easy, get the taunton book and it explain simple. But basically you have 4 wires, (2) 110 (1) netrual and a ground. the 110 are off cycle so when a circuit breaker is hook to each 110 it makes 220. just follow the code, to not change from the code and everything will fall in place. In garage I like metal conduit due to working on things, I do not want to harm the wire.
" I don't understand......power extended from ...main to shed... do I ......"
Assuming you want 240v service to the shed - must install a two pole ( 240v) breaker into your existing SEP ( breaker box ) and cable from there.
Assuming you only want 120v available in the shed, you would install a single pole breaker in the existing panel and extend from there.
In either case, the new conductor to the shed must be protected by an appropriate sized breaker, based on the cable size which you install to the shed.
You do not connect to the main entrance lugs outside of the panel main breaker. Houses can and do burn down because of installations like this.
Get the book! Read carefully, struggle some more.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
jtc1;
Got the book. Question: If I want to run 100 or 80 amps to a sub panel, can I get a braker that is that size - actually I need to run two hot wires so I guess I want two 50 or 40 amp brakers installed on the right and left side of the bus.
I now understand grounding!
TT
PS - I am only thinking of running 110 and not 220.
TT
no, you buy 1 100 amp breaker. it will say 100 amp on the breaker. it will be two breaker tied together but it will be two 100 amps not two fifty amps. two fifty amps is still a fifty amp service. 1 (50) is a 110 volt system. 2 (50) would be a fifty amp 220v system
Your too kind for the advice - that was one of the things I couldn't get out of the book " Wireing a House"One last question: I have to run a wire about 175 feet from service box to sub panel-for 100 amps what guage would you use? I have heard something like a 1 guage.
tt
go to page 9, top right corner. use a #4 awg copper, aluminimm is a joke. copper is a better wire. Run three #4 copper and a #8 copper for ground. before pulling each wire tape 1 # 4 red tape, 1 #4 white tape. make good. pull all 4 wire at once through conduit, use alot of pulling soap( at electrical supply house) 4lorn is better at this that me.note, altough they will be a drop in voltage over 175 feet, you will never be pulling a 100 amps at one time so volatge drop is not a problem. It better to have too much capability in a box than not enough at a later date.
Edited 10/11/2005 8:30 pm by brownbagg
BB;
There isn't a a four wire cable? I need four seperate wires?
TT
before I get over my head , ask 4lorn he is the house electrian.
TT , are you still running PVC conduit?
If you are, then the wires that you will pull thru the conduit have to be sized according to the 60 deg. chart ......which is the temperature rating of the conduit....in other words ,you could run VERY high temp wire in the conduit,but, you must use a wire gauge based on the 60 deg. tables
I must say that brownbagg has been very helplful thru this whole post,
but I have to say that the wire has to be #1 AWG copper and 100A two pole breakers have to be used . There are a few reasons why.. .... #1 wire will not fit in the lugs on 50A breakers,......the distance between panels is too long for #4AWG...if you only want 110 volt service the wire size still has to be large...as brownbagg said , you will not use 100Amps,but all of your loads are 110 volts , and the voltage drop on those "branch" circuits will give you problems if you run smaller wire....You will need #1 copper.......3 wires and as brownbagg said ,
...tape one wire with red tape, and one with white tape !
pull a #8 ground from the old panel and you will need a ground
rod at the new panel with a #8 from that rod to the new panel as well. attach those ground wires to either the ground bar, or to the spot marked in the panel with the grouns symbolDO NOT bond the neutral of the new panel to ground !!!!!"
"If you are, then the wires that you will pull thru the conduit have to be sized according to the 60 deg. chart ......which is the temperature rating of the conduit....in other words ,you could run VERY high temp wire in the conduit,but, you must use a wire gauge based on the 60 deg. tables"Is that in the code? What section?Or is that one of those Chicago "things".
in '05 .......it is 352.12(E) if you stil have '99 it is 347, but I don't have a copy to verify
since the exception looks NEW for '05"edited to add:...well , I went out to look at a some PVC I have and on that pipe it reads "MAX 90C WIRE"....but the stuff is about four years old...
Edited 10/16/2005 8:02 am by maddog3
The 99 NEC same that it can't be used where ambient temps are in excess of 50 C.And also that conductor insulation limitation can't exceed those for which the conduit is listed.So it looks like it depends on the what the conduit markings are. Does the 2005 say the same thing or does it spell out 60 degress limit.Speaking of government projects about 20 years ago the city replaced our gravity feed sewer system. I lieve on a small private lake (about 350 homes) the sewer system was installed in 1928 and the homes where summer cabins.Now they are all full time and the sewers where overloaded and in many places houses had been build over them.So they used a holding tanks with a sewer grinder/pump that feed into a force main. Since the house dated from very old with 80 service to brand new ones they tapped in directly to the meter and had a breaker in the control box.From the control box the power and control lines where in conduit. Across my driveway it is as shallow as 6". The neighbors line is just under the surface.
2005 states.....not permitted where subject to temps in excess of 50C unless listed otherwise... ..but because of the length , and his 110 volt circuits he still needs #1.I worked on a sewer project on a lake south of where I used to live, ......it was govt. grant money
new sewers went in, along with 18 lift stations, and some of the pumps were installed in folks yards.
The work started in Dec. and ended in Feb. with the main pumps installed in a field that flooded if it drizzled. so in the Spring they had to be replacedThe drying beds were located upwind of the local golf course !!$18M project with no one hired to manage the system, or to keep it running !folks were compensated a small amount for the damage to their yards, but had to shell $K to connect to something they had no control over, and this was mandatoryIt turned out that the indivdual (a non - resident) who was instrumental in getting this fiasco built , "volunteered " his services...for a handsome fee as the new Wastewater District manager....whadda joke"
.....one of those Chicago "things"above FG there is no exposed PVC , it is either IMC, RMC and concrete encased....as when when running power out to pole bases for parking lot lighting .....under driveways or ramps it is always encased and sometimes rebar is added...... if it is Utility feeders that concrete is dyed and a tracer is placed in the trench ...Chicago had a "plenum "rating in ceilings for ALL power at one time, and that meant EMT and compression fittings , " drawn " junction boxes with no mounting holes ,gasketed covers, special flex for fixture whips , and of course sealing off any open conduit (s) that where used for com and data that entered the plenum space with either fire stop or some other "suitable means"
..plus, .... ANY opening below the plenum that ended within the plenum had to comply with all of the aboveGEC in GRC ..no exceptions...this may have changed??of course ....NO ROMEXinground swimming pools had to have every steel panel bonded using exothermic welds and, in one little town..... a test point for the ground ring around the poolooops almost forgot...no more than nine wires in a pipeand NONE of this applies if you are building a school, or village hall , or any number of Gov't projects.......
"
If you want 100 amps at 120 then you can use a 50 amp breaker in the main panel and the feeder sized accordingly.Since you are actually runn 240 with the 2 hots you will need a 2 pole breaker.
Bill,
BB sez I need two coupled 100 amp breakers If I only want 110 service- doesn't two 50's equil 50 amp service at 220?
TT
Convert it to watts.50 amps at 240 gives you 12,000 wattsSame as 100 amps at 120.
My 'puter had a bug for a few days. Feeling much better now.
I think BillHartmann, maddog, brownbagg have already answered your question re: breakers in the new panel.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I'm not the best estimator, but $19.50/ft feels kinda high. Hopefully 4lorn or one of the other guys will weigh in on that. Is it direct bury cable or in conduit? Did he say how he was going to install it, by digging a trench or plowing it in? If there's a lot of hand digging involved that will drive the cost up for sure.
Code requires 18" depth - so I need to rent a machine to dig the trench. I also need to put the wire in 2" plastic conduit - thats the plan. But I don't understand how the wire is connected to the fuse box on either end.
Twotowers
"rent a machine to dig the trench"
And I'm doing a fair piece of mine with a shovel to avoid cutting some tree roots.......but then when you work a desk job a shovel is honest therapy......
I have about 150 feet at 18 inches to dig so I plan to rent a small back howe(sp?)
Twotowers
I'm hand digging to 2 feet a total of about 50 feet......but like I said, it is sort of therapy....
ditch witch, $100 a weekend.
I got a quote of $ 200.00 a day delivered........does that sound high?
tt
I got mine for $100 for weekend and you pull it behind your pickup.
What Brownbagg said -- definitely a DitchWitch job. Forget renting a backhoe.
DitchWitch is a brand name of what is probably the most popular of the trenchers. Cuts the earth, and clears it from the trench, with what looks like an overgrown chain saw type blade with big teeth moving at relatively low speed. Sorry, unlike the backhoe you don't get to ride on it. Backfilling is by hand.
DitchWitch = cheaper, probably faster, less mess and damage to yard, about a 10 minute learning curve to discover all of it's secrets. Less if the rental company actually shows you how to run it; most of the rental delivery drivers will be happy to show you how to run any piece of equipment they provide -- don't be bashful, just ask. They would much rather have a healthy, satisfied customer (and an undamaged machine) when you are done.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
you have fuses or breakers in the house panel ?"
I have 200 amp board with breakers.
Twotowers
well then, you will need ####100a breaker to match your old panel,this might require four spaces, and another 100a breaker in your new panel in the outbuilding.
DO NOT USE THE BONDING SCREW FOR THE NEUTRAL IN YOUR NEW PANEL"
TT,I don't much like the 'pulling cable' thing where other options are available. Pulling puts stress on wire and insulation both. I agree that you should oversize the conduit, but not by too much. Put the sand in the bottom of the trench (as required by code) then lay the wire loosely. Slide sections of conduit one at a time onto the cable, prime and glue as you go. This way it is easy - save the ends with the bends for last. Have fun.D. P.S. Just about anything is better than electric for heat, IMHUI.
If you're not sure how to hook up the wires at the panel, then (a) go to the library and check out books on the subject, and (b) consider whether you want to do that part yourself. It's not difficult, but I'm not sure I'd recommending hooking up a panel as the first electrical project to do.
Doing it wrong could result in the shed burning down or you dying.
Having said that, as long as you're not colorblind and you're reasonably competent with hand tools and VERY careful, it's mainly a matter of understanding the process and following the directions carefully.
What you're asking is a question whose answer has way too many parts for an online forum. That's why books are still useful in the 21st century.
I would not suggest you direct bury the cable-rodents tend to chew on the cable both above and below grade, causing costly problems. PVC is the easiest to install because you dont need to be as precise with your angles as you would with steel. Also, consider using an armoured cable (MC) in the walls if you have any rodents that may get in the wall and set up camp. You plan to heat this building, which suggests insulation, creating a great nesting area. The romez cable make for good teeth sharpening in the middle of winter. Dont forget a GFI outlet on the outside for those unplanned power requirements.
A little bit of zip cord, a couple of nails... Wattaya worried about ?
;o)
If there's a tree between the buildings, you won't even have to dig. Just string it through the branches.
Are we there yet ?
Been there, done that I bet
Nope.I'm frugal, not stupid.;o)
Are we there yet ?
well, yours truly has run 60 amps a few hundred feet thru parallel strands of 10 awg thru trees to get the welder to a machine on a temporary basis, but then no frugality here, downright cheap! stupidity is questionalbe <G>
ROFLOLBut the zip cord I was referring to is ordinary lamp cord. You know, the stuff you can "zip" apart into two wires... What is that ? About 23 ga ??I don't really think there's any question that running a line of zip cord through the trees, to power a sub-panel in his workshop would be pretty much the definition of stupid.;o)What you did might have been stretching things, but at least you were aware of the possibilities, were ready to deal with them, and didn't intend to make it permanent.
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If you run galvanized pipe you only have to bury it 6". I have rocky and heavy clay soil so I go 6" with steel without any inspection problems.
Headstong, I'll take on anyone!
Get Cauldwell's book on wiring a house. It will cover how to do a subpanel correctly. None of the books aimed at homeowners will have sufficient detail to do it right.
who carries it?
Twotowers
umm. look at the top of this page.....shop taunton...and clik"
I think I've seen it at Home Depot - they carry a number of the Taunton books now.
well now they have something worth going there for !"
Local code may differ, but if you use intermediate wall conduit, you may be able to go only 12" or so.
Rent the ditch witch.
And WAY oversize the conduit.
I did what you did once, and boy did I regret going with the minimum conduit. Get something like 3" or even 4". It can't be that much more. And you will need a snake above the level of the smallest ones, ideally long enough to reach from one end to the other, plus a gallon of wire lube. Pull from the shed to an el at the house, and then push the cable into the main panel. One way is to have the conductors on spools that unwind as you pull. Otherwise, you will need someone feeding and someone pulling. Stretch the cable out and tape it together. At the 'el' you will need to be able to pull an extra length to reach the box easily.
There are probably electric wenches to do this somewhere, but I've never seen them.
Have an outside cutoff at the shed.
Don't know if they allow the conduit to be the ground, but I don't think so anymore. However it does have to bond end-to-end if you use metal.
"There are probably electric wenches out there somewhere, but I haven't seen them."Yeah, I keep looking for wenches to help me with my work, too, but they don't come electric - and I have to pay them! :o)I have seen an electric winch designed for pulling wires - I seem to recall a smooth pulley on it - wrap the pulling rope once around it and pull on the rope - the pulley friction causes the winch to draw in the cable. Let go of the rope and the pulling stops.Suggestion - when you have the trench open, drop in a run of, say, 3/4" nonmetallic conduit between the house and the shed. (You could also use any plastic pipe - like lawn irrigation pipe - but the inspector might object.) It can come in handy later to run telephone wires, doorbell extension, computer network cable for when you get that computer-controlled table saw... - Jim
I good trick to pulling the wires. Get enough masons twine to go from one end to the other. Tie a small wad of a piece of plastic grocery bag to one end. Not too much that it has to be stuffed into the pipe with force. On the other end of the pipe run, use your shop vac and vacuum the piece of plastic bag with the twine thru the pipe. Works great. Oh, and tie off the other end so you do not just suck the whole twine thru the pipe. Use this twine to either pull the wires or to at least pull a snake that then has the wires attached.
that is really slick!! great suggeston.
twotowers
$3,900 is an outrageous quote...But I guess it depends on the part of the country you live at and if the trade is unionized, etc.
I did a DIY 200-amp upgrade to our house in 2000 that was fully permitted and inspected. (Full credit goes to Rex Cauldwell and his book.)
Ditch Witch rental for about 200' total trenching at 24" depth.
(I dug the trench and laid the conduit to the house for the power company and they pulled their cable to the house at no charge).
2" conduit from power pole to the meter/disconnect and then around the house to the basement wall into the house.
Used copper cables instead of aluminum from the meter/disconnect to the service panel in the house (about 100'). Installed 40/40 QO Square-D panel.
Buried three grounding rods.
Without digging up the receipts, I'm estimating the total material and rental cost at less then $1,000 back in 2000.
(Forgot about the rental Bosch concrete saw and blade charge for opening up a concrete pad for running the conduit up to the house wall.)
Earlier this year I paid a elec contractor to do a similar project but all they did was run the alum SE cable (200 amp rated) into the house and install a 40/40 QO panel (mine) and switch over to it.
I had already installed the combination meter/shutoff and power company had already pulled their lines to it.
They did hand-dig the trench along the wall and ran the conduit.
The tab for this was $1,300, parts and labor.
Both of these are on either end of the scale of your project ?
don't forget to ground your outbuilding.... it is a separate structure"
MD;
I don't use the ground from the main building?
TT
yes you do,
you will also need to drive another ground rod at your shed and connect it to the ground ING wire "from your main building."
if you are going to use #1 AWG for the feed, the ground ING conductor size from your new ground to the new panel will need to be #6 copper.
If you decide to use steel conduit in the ground, it gets a bit more complicated,but that conduit can be used as the ground ING conductor ....with approved fittings......!"
have you decided what type of conduit you will use ?"
MD,
I Guess 2" Plastic is the plan. I am going to try to rent a Ditch Witch to dig it and plan to pull the wire at the same time I put the conduit together.
TT
.. sliding the pipe over the wire is about the only thing you can do . if you are working by yourself ! ...it is just a different PITA....
of course you will keep the rocks and pebbles out of the conduit,
..If for some reason you decide to pull wire AFTER you glue all the pipe up, try to use a flat rope or tape for pulling ...a small dia. string or wire WILL burn a groove into the PVC in ALL bends and anywhere the string is dragging inside the pipe...... and the wire will NOT move past that. you can e-mail me if you want toTom
"
I know there was more than one suggestion to slide the conduit over the cable, one section at a time, but I don't think that meets code. NEC Article 300-18 Raceway Installations. (a) Complete Runs. Raceways, other than busways or exposed raceways having hinged or removable covers, shall be installed complete between outlet, junction, or splicing points prior to the installation of the conductors.
That's from my 1999 NEC - don't think it has changed, but I could be wrong.
yeah you right, but it sounds like the man is working alone, I think some of us here have done just that, it ain't fun either ,in fact more a PITA , but sometimes things get broken while the building is gettin built !
"
There is another factor to keep in mind when sliding the conduit over the conductors and then gluing. The primer and the glue weld the plastic by disolving it then allowing it to harden when the solvents evaporate. If you get that stuff on your conductors, there is no way of knowing if you've compromised the insulation. I think this is the logic behind the code requirement.
If single handing it, you could try laying the cable out in the sun to allow it to flatten out of its coiled condition. This may make it easier to push it through the conduit to the L. if you upsize as much as possible on the coduit, this will be even easier. even 1/2 " will help.
definately pull all conductors at the same time though... otherwise you run the risk of friction rubbing off the insulation on the conductors.
Couple of things. Call to have ANYHING located before you dig. Sometimes it is surprising what you think you know about a property and what you find. Once you get everything run box to box don't make the mistake I did. Have 1 or more circuits for lights only. I don't know how many times I fired up a tool at night (and my shop is attached to the house) and the breaker popped leaving me in total darkness. Not good in a shop. I'm guessing that a locator can find the non metallic pipe because of the wires inside. Otherwise run something metallic outside and along the conduit so that your dig can be located in the future. I think the utility company has an accepted stacking of utilities in a trench. Like if you were putting water to the shed (not a bad idea if you work it so it won't freeze) it would probably go first, exactly where natural gas and elec goes I don't know. Ask. Would I put a phone line to the shed? Absolutely. Make sure electrical doesn't interfere with phone signals. Is that "a couple" yet? Tyr