Hello All,
My wife has rented out her house in Portland Oregon. The current tenant is having a lot of problems with tripping breakers. It is fairly clear that the circuits are loaded close to maximum capacity and any additional load like a space heater or small appliance trips the breaker.
The existing panel has “pushmatic breakers”.
When we lived there we never had any problems but also we didn’t tend to use portable electric space heaters.
The electrician who checked it out has recommended installing a 200 amp siemens panel in place of the pushmatic panel in the basement, a new meter base and conduit (15 feet of PVC) from the meter base to the panel.
He would also put in 3 “cadet” electric heaters in the basement living area (currently unheated) and add two circuits to the kitchen.
Cost breakdown is $1900 for the new panel, conduit and meter base. $525 for the three heaters and $175 for the two new kitchen circuits.
The main living area of the house is heated with electric baseboard heat.
Is it appropriate to replace the existing pushmatic panel rather than adding a subpanel to feed the new circuits? I don’t object to the price I just want to be sure that spending 1900 dollars on the new panel will pay off in terms of costs vs benefits.
Is PVC conduit advisable in an exterior location above grade installation?
The electrician explained that the pushmatic panel is a “dinosaur” and finding breakers will be next to impossible.
Thanks for any input,
karl
Edited 12/9/2005 8:46 pm ET by karl
Replies
I like the idea of updating your electrical because I think it's safer and, as a realtor, I know if you ever try to sell your home it will be much easier with the new updated system.
-Do the thing you fear and the death of fear is certain-
What he told you sounds very typical for your situation. I'll bet another electrician visiting your rental would say essentially the same thing.
Good luck,
Don
Karl: Getting rid of an old insufficient breaker panel is a good upgrade for any property. Using electric heat makes this more attractive and having the new heaters permanent rather then portable is also worthwhile. PVC in a sheltered (not exposed to vehicle traffic) location is ok if the inspector says it is. Old breakers tripping is not as bad as them not tripping when they should. They do wear out from repeated trips and can lose their calibration, usually tripping too soon rather then when overloaded. The rare but possible fault is when an overloaded breaker doesn't trip and this can be a real hazard. Go for the new panel, you can write it off and have peace of mind: a most valuable commodity. Duke the electrician, retired.
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The main living area of the house is heated with electric baseboard heat --- OUCH!
Since you don't object to the $1900 for the service cost, ditch the $525 for the resistance heaters (dumb, IMO) and put a few more grand into a heat pump for the whole house.
Since it is a rental, normal economics are different, but the renter would love the heat bill saving, maybe you could do a cost trade with them and split the difference and still pay for the HP install in a few years.
Do you live in Portland, and are you any type of DIY. Economics change so drastically then that NOT installin a HP is near cash wise suicidal with today's pricing structure changes.
Thanks to all for the input. I will look into the heat pump idea. I currently live in Santa Cruz, CA so the DIY option isn't happening right now. With electric rates around here starting at 13 cents/kwhr and climbing to 25 cents/kwhr as you exceed higher percentages of baseline usage I can't really imagine specifying anykind of electric heat here. Natural gas seems like the only way to go.I am hoping for the tenants sake that electric rates are lower in Portland. When I was living there they seemed to be about half of California.It looks like there aren't any naysayers on the electric panel so I guess we will go ahead with it.Thank you all.
Karl
Aha, you be living in CA<G>.
Wierd energy regs there these days..... Very ahrd to make decisions. In 2001, CA beauracrats did a nat gas study on pricing. They spent millions on the study, predicted today's nat gas prices would be about $6 MBTU, now over $14.
Upgrading the service and panel is the long term solution.
You might be able to install a subpanel and get some benefit. Depends on which of those breakers is tripping. If its the main a subpanel won't get you far. If not the advantage of a subpanel is a question of how close to maxed out it is. An ammeter can be used to tell you how close you are.
On borderline cases a new service and panel is the best option as loads are likely to increase, making a new service an eventuality which will have to be faced in time.
In the long run the larger job, by eliminating the cost of the smaller job, is cheaper in the long run.
PVC above grade is fine. Check with the AHJ and conform to code.
Pushmatics are good breakers. Reliable and a rugged design. Old but still available. But, because fewer places carry them any more, you pay a premium for them. Larger breakers, like mains, can get pricey. If the panel is still adequate I wouldn't see any real reason to replace it.
While the electrician is at it he should use that ammeter to check the breakers that are tripping. Pushamatics are reliable but most breakers weaken in time and the circuits may not be as overloaded as it would seem. A replacement breaker may serve for the time being.
Also you don't mention if the panel is full. You say they are close to capacity but adding a circuit or two to divide the existing ones might cover the problem for some considerable time. If the occupants run a space heater in any particular location you might be able to run a dedicated circuit for the heater.
Some options to think about.
Thanks for the input,The panel is full. In fact I suspect that one or two breakers may be feeding two circuits ie. two wires run to the breaker. This is why I contemplated a subpanel. With my limited understanding I was thinking the electrician could wire up a subpanel beside the main and gain additional breakers to add circuits or split up loads.I don't know what kind of amperage the panel routinely sees so I don't want to assume it is adequate when it may be necessary to upgrade to 200 amps. The house only has two bachelors living in it who are seldom home. I think the essence of the problem is that they have their entertainment center and workout equipment set up in the basement and plug in a space heater to warm it up. Furthermore I think they cook most of their food in a toaster oven which in conjunction with the fridge and microwave being on the same circuit it frequently trips.I am reluctant to overrule the electricians recommendation of a new panel but don't want to tear out a functioning panel that only needs to have one new 40 or 60 amp breaker swapped in to run a subpanel that could supply the additional breakers for the kitchen and basement circuits.Is the subpanel a viable option or is it a hillbilly approach that is asking for trouble down the road with minimal cost savings in the present?Thanks again, Karl
I also have an old Pushmatic panel. When doing an electrical proejct recently, I had the electrical inspector over and he told me that he sees a lot of problems with these old Pushmatic panels, and suggested I replace it. I can find the breakers, but they're EXPENSIVE!
Given the additional details it sounds, on the face of it, like the original electricians judgment is likely correct. Installing new breakers or a subpanel seems to be more of a long shot. Odds are they might not be of much utility and in a short time your going to have to bite the bullet and get a more complete upgrade. If you plan on keeping this property it would more than likely be better to go all the way sooner than later.
You can always add the tandem breakers that put two in place of one breaker.
I attached a picture, I used this to add a couple circuits to a full panel.
Don't know what amperage the existing service is now but going to 200 amps for what may be small amount of electric heat in a fairly mild climate may be overkill. Ask the electricain if he did a load calculation for the house?
Recently, I did an inspection on a 7 year old, 1582 sq ft house in a 7,600 degree day F location. It had a 100 amp service and was all-electric. The realtor had been "trained by the street" that if you had electric heat, you had to have a 200 amp service, don't you??. I did the code calculation and found that you could put about 2500 watts more in the house if you wanted!!
Thanks for all the input. I looked on ebay and it seems tandem breakers are readily availible at not too high a cost. I was intially tempted but after reflecting on it, the new panel may be the way to go. Between the stove, water heater and all the baseboard heat using 220 breakers, there is very little opportunity to swap in tandem breakers to create more than four additonal 110 circuits.I could still do the subpanel option but I suspect it may be time to bite the bullet, spend the money and end up with easily replaced breakers and adequate circuits for a modern home.Are siemens good panels in terms of breaker reliability and availibility of replacement breakers? This was the electricians first choice.thanks again, karl
Siemens is a good solid brand. You could do worse. I like Cutler-Hammer a bit more but most electricians I know think they are about the same as any other major brand and usually the C-H panels are bit more expensive. If your planning on handing this property down to the grand kids you might ask your electrician what he/she thinks about panels with all-copper buses. They are a bit more expensive. They are pretty much standard for any location subject to moisture. In the long run they are less subject to corrosion and deterioration. But here again some electricians consider it an extra expense that is unnecessary in most cases. A judgment call.
Perhaps it's regional. I see a lot of Murray and Square-D around here. Siemens is rare. The city likes Milbank for service entrances.
-- J.S.
First off - I like your electrician's original idea.
But as for the Pushmatics - I had to split an unused tandem (220) down to two 110's for new singles, about a year ago, and I found that for a simple 20A single phase, new Pushmatics were $20 each at my local electrical supply house. Piece of cake.
Now, Pushmatics that're more complicated, tandems or GFIs were going to be tougher to find and more expensive, but they are out there.
I appreciate all the help in making my decision. I called the electrician today and told him to go ahead with his proposed upgrades. It really helps having you guys as a sounding board when i am trying to pry open my wallet to spend some money.Karl