Question regarding best practice for installing Elk 30 year shingles: I am considering an overlay using the Elk 30 year shingle. I am not a big fan of overlays but with that said here is my question. I want to bump the top of the Elk shingles up to the bottom edge of the existing shingles. I used to do this all the time with three tab strip shingles as it gives a smoother looking final product. The first course ends up with less exposure. The rest are five inches to the weather as long as the first roof was five inches. The Elk shingles are a 5 5/8th inch exposure as per install instructions. Using the method I describe my new install would be five inches to the weather as well. Is it a comman practice to do this? Will the change in exposure affect the seal down ability? The tar tabs would be slightly further from the edge of the shingle. This install is in a windy area in Ohio. Six nail install recommened?
I am interested in opinions on this. Thanks. Mike L.
Replies
I've done this a number of times.
The only down side is more $, and you lose some of the shadow effect the Elk shingle has on the top part of the exposure.
The seal down lines still stick, and six nailing it would be a waste of time in IMHO.
John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
svenny has it pretty close-----------
you are in effect increasing your head lap----arguably better.
maybe 10% of the roofs we do are done as layovers and they are virtually always a dimensional shingle over a 3 tab.
you will lose some of the shadow effect---and it will take about 10% more shingles--- but it is more than offset by the tear-off savings.
as far as 6 nailing------with dimensional shingles generally I spec. 6 nails now on anything that isn't a walkable roof---and on any 50 year/lifetime shingles.
I haven't used Elk for a while now---- but there are directions right on the Certainteed wrappers for doing this as a layover. It will seal down fine.
If you really are in a high wind area---- I would put some effort into upselling to a 50 year/lifetime shingle----6 nailed.----you get more like a 110 mile per hour wind rating then------ and it's a VERY easy upsell.
Stephen
Gentlemen: Thanks for your thoughts. This is a great site, no doubt. Mike L.
Stephen H.
Which line of CertainTeed 50 year shingles do think would look best with the 5 inch exposure I am talking about on a 5 1/2 12 pitch two story colonial? I guess I am considering cost and weight too.
Another question: The house is alum. sided with a J channel laying ON the existing roof in a sidewall application. The siding dies of into the channel. There is NO room to slide the new shingle plus a shingle tin under the J channel. What do you feel is a best practice in this application? (Other than a tear-off)
Thanks. Mike L.
Check out the 50 year elks, I have em' on my house. Pretty sweet, nice and thick. They have some nice colors, as well.
Dustin
There is NO room to slide the new shingle plus a shingle tin under the J channel. What do you feel is a best practice in this application?
Depends on whether you want call backs or not. Personally, I won't hardly do a layover, but, if I were in your current situation (and I have been before), I'd take the siding and J channel off, flash it right (you're putting 50 yr shingles over flashing that's been there maybe 20 years already) and re-install the siding. It's not that hard and you can recut it to adjust for the extra thickness.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
Mike L.--- the most recent one I did----was about a week ago.
what was called 50 year Landmark last year----is NOW Landmark Lifetime---same shingle--just changed the warranty.
regaurding the J channel------
on the face of it ,greencu is technically correct,as usual ;)
as a practical matter--there are 2 frequent considerations---
1)here in Akron we will frequently find older aluminum siding( that really wide stuff???) where there is NO J channel where siding meets a porch roof-----or along side a dormer etc.------so I f I have a problem like you have where J channel exists--- often I will simply remove the existing j channel--and never replace it----often there is only 4-5 nails in it anyhow----and a carefull "tug" at each nailing point seperates the J from the wall and it slides right out from behind the siding---then it 's a simple matter to step flash as usual--and never replace the J channel--siding looks like every other house on the block
2)Problem is on a roof with wide overhangs---problem area NEVER sees rain anyhow---so you just shingle it. Yes i know--sounds hinky and a lot less than Fine Homebuilding.-- but as a practical matter doing it that way has NEVER leaked for us-never ,ever, EVER. I litterally pass dozens of these houses EVERY DAY where circumstances caused us to do it that way------and there has never been the slightest problem with them.
greencu tells you there is a potential call back waiting there----and maybe there is.--but as a practical matter---it hasn't happened in over 20 years.
comes down to----you gotta know the houses you are working on---what has worked for them since they were built in 1923--and what hasn't.
there are some types of houses that what i desribed probably wouldn't work----but it works here.
personally-- I am REALLY leary of trying to remove aluminum siding and put it back up with out it being bent to holy heck.
personally-- I am REALLY leary of trying to remove aluminum siding and put it back up with out it being bent to holy heck.
But yet you desire to build windows. I've done it and had it done numerous times. Takes a little brainwork and light handedness, but it's a lot less scary than you want it to be.
Problem is on a roof with wide overhangs---problem area NEVER sees rain anyhow---so you just shingle it.
I agree in principle about the wide over hang on the sides of a shed dormer for example, but how 'bout a gabled dormer with little or no overhang. You got water splashing right against the flashing joint. All dormers and wall abuttments are not created equally.
it hasn't happened in over 20 years.
But, you're selling a 50 year roof and your customer is buying a 50 year roof. You ought to give a 50 year roof or stay in the phucking kitchen, ladies.
often I will simply remove the existing j channel--and never replace it
So there's one of your possible solutions.
Cheers.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
So I see it's not me and Puffy this time.
So I see it's not me and Puffy this time.
no comprendez.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
Last week Paul and I had a difference of opinion and you waded in with the "slate queer" scenario.
Just pointing up you can take issue too with less than sound practices.
Walter
you waded in with the "slate queer" scenario.
Oh yeah, I remember.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
ya know walter-- you are clearly proficient in your field-----but the only thing I have ever seen of yours that i had a question about was that valley you re-flashed where you only did half of it--- i think the right side??? and it ended up with a seam in the center of the valley?
I always wondered about the prudence of that one----but since you are the one on the spot and you are comfortable with the call-- I sure gotta go with YOUR judgement. LOL
Best wishes,
Stephen
Thanks for your thoughts. I have used most all of the methods discussed in the past. It is very much "what you are comfortable with". As I get older quality becomes more and more important to me. I try to never have a call back. As much as anything they are embarrassing. In addition, it is no fun to be responsible for replacing/repairing an owners ceiling and high end wallpaper. Too much of that and you are out of the busin.
The larger step flashing under the J channel is a technique I have used in the past. It takes a little time and patience to snark it in but if done correctly can be a pretty good method. For me, I get in the mind set that this is going to take some time but it will be a good solution and have at it. I have worked on jobs where the previous guys slapped roof mastic on the joint between the wall and the roof and called it good. I guess they would leave the owner a five gallon bucket of mastic and have them go up every year and touch it up. I have had to use a heat gun to get that s--- off the siding. Not a pretty sight.
Another thought is to remove the J channel, cut the siding back and reinstall a new matching J channel. Attaching the J is a little tricky but I have a way using strips of alum. riveted to the long side of the channel and hanging down below. Tuck the channel up under the siding and nail off the strips to the studs as needed. Slip the flashings behind the J as per usual. I am not sure what tool would work best to cut the siding. I have cut wood siding back with a circular saw in the past. Not for the faint of heart but I have had good results. A rotozip is so unpredictable. Hard to keep it headed in the right direction.
Oh well, guess I will pick a method and order up some materials!
Mike--- we have occasionally been able to zip screw a piece of J in in situations like this where you are fudging J back in after siding is already in place-----which is nice because you can get a long extension socket in there and back the screw out a hair so the j can move a bit
up close to the long point of the siding cut you might have enough wiggle room to finagle it.--depending on how close to the long point the siding was nailed.
Stephen
edit---- rich reminds me------- i think I have a picture of the method he is suggesting---we did it on a neighbors house back in June------ try to see if I can dig it out and resize it.
Edited 7/28/2007 10:18 am ET by Hazlett
Stephen,
It took awhile to locate the pictures from the half valley job-I thought they resided on my deceased Micron unit, but they have been found.
Since you asked about the prudence of that repair I thought I should explain my thinking and workmanship for you and perhaps others who wish to view the attached Shutterfly album.
A little backround: This campus is owned by the Bangor Theological Seminary- In operation since the early 1800's. Their infrastructure was killing their endowments- repairs,heat,lights,maintenance,etc.- so they went in with another local College and put the Campus up for sale. This bad leak developed in their Commons Building and their facilities man asked me to fix it. He didn't want a quote,just the leakage stopped long term.
I went to work to solve the problem for them. You're correct the right hand side of this valley was worn thru in quite a few spots due to erosion corrosion. Where you can see the bright streaks of copper is where it's constantly being worn away.Notice on the left side the patina is constant- there is no wear on that side the 1" high rib that existed helped keep water from washing onto that side.
The copper that was there was only 16 oz. and the sheets I replaced it with were 20 oz. The slates were relaid and they now have a totally leak proof area for another slug of years.
So instead of doing work which wasn't needed for an orginization on lean times I did as much as needed to solve the problem- even though it might appear unorthodox at first glance.
The total bill was $320 materials, $1300 labor
Check out the pictures and you'll see what I mean.
Walter
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8cbsmrhq0M4¬ag=1
I kinda thought the same thing Haz did, but now I can see better what you were up to. I'd have thought the low pitched side would have worn quicker. The holes look almost like flex points that have worn thru. Was the original valley nailed down or clipped down?
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
Grant, All valleys where I work were nailed not clipped and I use the same technique.
The water falling off the sharp edges of the angled slates form mini rivulets that - over time- just wear away the copper. Some of those pics show that clearly.
Stephen didn't think it looked prudent- judging by his post, so I thought I'd show the logic behind the repairs I undertook.
Usually it is I who set the specs for what needs to be done- since not many wish to climb up high or even know what they're seeing.
Walter
Walter------------ I don't know if i would say" wouldn't be prudent".
what i would say is that the solution you arrived at is un-orthodox and is never gonna be in someones" by the book" methodolgy.
instinctively---if we are gonna open up a valley--we are gonna do BOTH sides of it--icegaurd-a piece of flashing without a center seam etc.
But-- YOU are the guy on the spot familiar with YOUR local architecture and what works in your climate---so of course YOU are the guy to make the call---and you are of course operating from complete confidence
now--since i occupy a lower strata of the roofing industry that you and grant
My solutions take the same considerations into account-------- for instance Grant is putting a copper roof on the house of the heir to the Gainsburger fortune----while i might be putting dimensional shingle roof on the the house of a widow of a Firestone tire builder---whole house is worth maybe 82,000. Grants concern about the step flashing in this instance might add 30% to the cost of her work---- and I KNOW- iron clad in the cases I am thinking of locally---it wouldn't have added any value or done ANYTHING for her---let me see If I can dig up a picture---------------
Stephen
lets see if i got the right picture---- it's a house i used to own--and a neighbors I did years ago--in fact due to hail damage i will be re-doing the neighbors next spring
anyhow--- this is a style of house i have never seen anywhere else i have been----but it's quite common here
look at the eaves extending up from the porch roof up the side wall---- protected by the overhanging roof
we have done a ZILLION of these--- those overhangs NEVER leak-- never with a new roof--step flashed or not--never with an old roof---- never been called to repair one of these---- just never gonna happen here( one reason---usually the eave is sagging to one degree or another away from the side wall---- so water runs down hill in 2 directions.
so--- in a by the book world- of course that side wall should be step flashed---------
but as a practical matter- not needed
look at the yellow and white house to the left--note the absence of J channel along the roof line---never had it--never gonna have it!!!!!
so---done wrong by the book---but done right given the constraints these people face------ even more severe constraints than your people with the valley.
Off on a few days vacation now---chautauqua, NY---- and NYC via Bloomsburg PA
Stephen
Stephen,
That picture is too huge for my dial up capabilities.
I want to see what your talking about
Walter
sure- i will give it another try posting a picture walter-- bare with me--- vacation started a while ago--- and---well I gott a couple tallboys in me right now, LOL
nope--tell ya what---- go into the photo gallery-- " welcome to stephens neighborhood'---about post 31 I have a re-sized picture of the same houses----can't quite find the copy on my computer right about now, LOL
Off to pack--Stephen
Here ya go.............
View Image
walter-- here i am up at 4:00 this morning----------( some of you older guys might clue me in on this---what's with the NOT sleeping?- as I get older i sleep less and less--especially if I am not working the next day.--5 hours sleep last night and up at 4:00AM----if I am working the next dayI will usually sleep from 8:30-- untill5:00 AM)
anyhow-----was reminded of a few things
when I say no step flashing on those overhangs---------- of course they are step flashed----just not stepflashed AGAIN if they are done as a layover---for instance the house with the cedar sidewall shingles WAS stepflashed when we tore off the roofing a couple decades ago and put on 20 year certainteed 3 tabs-----when we layed it over with dimensionals a few years ago-----the side walls under the eaves were not RE-stepflashed
the house to the right---we tore off 10-12 years ago--- and put new stepflashing under the original wooden clapboards. that house has had vinyl siding put on since then----in a case like that( with vinyl) the vinyl offers no obstacle or expense to stepflashing AGAIN--so we would do it and it wouldn't slow us down a bit
BUT---if it had ALUMINUM siding--like the house to the right---well THEN it's a case by case basis
the OP in this thread asked about aluminum siding( actually the OP lives not too far from me I think)------------anyhow---if contemplating a layover on something like the house on the left----with aluminum siding in place------------- probably first thing i would do is pull the J along those overhangs- IF there was J.-- On that particular house-- there isn't J( quite common here on houses of that "vintage" sided in that era and so RE-Stepflashing would be no obstacle, so of course we would do it.
So-- we actually go through a whole process of considerations before we arrive at the decision NOT to re-Step flash under an eave in these specific instances.
since most of our work comes from this specific neighborhood--we keep tabs on everything. when we are tearing off--we pay attention to what worked in the past--and what didn't.-- most of these house were built in the 20's---and when we start working on them they will have 2-3 layers going back to when the house was first built---so it's a perfect archeological laboratory for determining what works here andwhat doesn't.
they were ALL step flashed in the 20's--and NEVER re-stepflashed in the subsequent layovers--------and NEVER any ill effects.
however--same house on the coast of MAINE ?--- maybe different situation--- but I am guessing houses aren't built with those Eaves in Maine.
different solutions for different areas. I am told in FLA, I think-it's code to bed rake shingles in Mastic--glue 'em right to the drip edge.------we have found ONE house here done that way---imediately started a firestorm of cursing among everyone on the tear-off detail,LOL.-- Here we use acres of icegaurd------possibly un-heard of in FLA, or georgia.
the center house in the preceeding picture---check out the window wells---these were all done when the house was built originally in tin. I do them now( new roof or layover ) in EPDM.--------- Grant would insist in doing them in copper---which makes sense for HIS clientelle---but it's not feasible for our customers
Next picture is my current home--a few blocks away from the previous one, but same overall neighborhood.
house has 3 small window wells. i think i will roof my own house march'08---and i think i will do those 3 window wells in copper--just for fun--- but that's a personal choice for me--and one that wouldn't make sense for most of the neighborhood----but it's a slowly growing item of interest here---on some of the slightly more expensive house in the neighborhood we DO get increasingly asked about some copper--usually chimneys.
stephen
Stephen,
Listening to this explanation makes much more sense to me now.
I don't, and you don't use a one size fits all approach to our workmanship.
I left the house at 4: 20 this morning and working at my "Orphanage" at 5.
Took a picture of a killer sunrise but I left my camera in my trailer.
Have a nice, restful vacation.
Walter
working at my "Orphanage" at 5.
Don't the orphans have it hard enough with having to listen to you banging away at 5AM? :')
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
Grant,
It was built as such in 1869- now it's a daycare and Kindergarden .
They're all day trippers so no one cares
Walter
I knew that. Hence the smiley face.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
I guess I missed the smiley in my haste to see your next tagline photo.
I really like the shopping cart round up! How long did that take someone to do?
the center house in the preceeding picture---check out the window wells---these were all done when the house was built originally in tin. I do them now( new roof or layover ) in EPDM.--------- Grant would insist in doing them in copper---which makes sense for HIS clientelle---but it's not feasible for our customers
Stephen - to do a window well in EPDM would take about the same amount of labor (maybe even a little more) as it would to do it in copper. The only difference would be the price of materials. Probably amount to about $50 more raw cost to do copper (maybe a little more in your case. I probably get cu about 10% cheaper by bulk purchase). Can't see how the economics really drives it that hard.http://grantlogan.net/
I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
seeyou---
I am gonna take your chastisement because----as I previously noted---you are technically correct--and usually are.
And--as previously noted---------there are places where it DOES work and places where it probably wouldn't-----and it's up to mike to decide what situation he has.
as far as the 50 year roof crack( LOL) I will let that slide too Grant----as I know what has been working on THESE houses since 1926---and what has worked on these houses is frequently what "technically correct" experts say Won't work ------yet here they are since 1926
and here I am putting my money where my mouth is with customer I live with,go to church with, see every day at the grocery store, at the gas station ,at their kids baptisms---every day part of the community
Best wishes, Stephen
Can you get the flashing under the J by itself??Bend flashing that will come out on the roof further than normal, put the flashing under the J, but lay the shingles up to the J without going under.I don't know if I'd do it that way, but I'd play around with it before I started pulling aluminum siding. Seems like it would work fine.
Rich BeckmanComing to the Fest? Don't forget pencils!!!!!!!!!!!!!