As an aside, I own a freight truck. We hire drivers to drive and pay them piece work or sub contractor rates. They earn “X” per mile.
I recently hired a new guy that drove for 2 weeks. He decided that it wasn’t what he wanted to do. However, he strung us along for 1 more week without telling us that he didn’t want to drive anymore, long story short.
Payment for his work is made as payment is recieved in our office from the various clients we haul freight for. Payments are typically received and redistributed within 2 weeks of the load being delivered, however occassionally we must wait 30 days or so.
At any rate, this driver is still owed for one job, $295.00. We have so far paid him just under $3000 for his other work. He refuses to return his keys and therfore I cannot operate the truck while being certain of my ability to secure the truck and its cargo. (I have spare keys but have to worry about the set he has too).
I discussed the matter with my local Police and they tell me this is a civil matter.
I’ve never had this problem before and I’ve been more generous with this last driver than with others. He has no reson to believe he wouldn’t be paid and the only one that has been dishonest in this endeavor has been him.
Anyhow, I was hoping that someone here might have some advice from a similar situation.
At this point, should I just have the locks changed and deduct it from his pay? Should I trust that he will return the keys and not have made a copy?
When you’re this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
Replies
This guy worked two weeks and was paind about 3k?! I'll drive for you!
If you still owe him money, obviously dont pay him without your keys back.
I would think the only other ooption short of court would be a locksmith.
Good luck.
Almost half of that money covers his fuel and tolls.
Here's the deal, the driver earns 75 cents per mile. fuel and tolls average 35 cents per mile +/- dependant upon driving habits.
This truck is under CDL requirements so no special licensing is needed.
The driver must cover his own personal expenses as well.
A legal day of driving is 11 hours out of 24. Reasonably, a driver can cover 600 miles per day in that time allotment. However, the routes may not always allow for that, ie, a load may only need to be hauled 400 miles for the day and to pick up afterwards and continue driving to acheive 600 miles is rare. So the earnings before personal expense but after fuel and tolls might be 240 for a full day or 160 for the limited day, as examples.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Where you at Pete? Thats a CDL truck here in Michigan.
It's under 26,000 gvw... under CDL in all of the good old USA.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
My mistake. It looks like the truck I started in and for that I needed a CDL B license.
Tell him you're going to change the locks. Tomorrow. And bill him for it. Then the balls in his court.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
My concern is that once I "get tough" with him, he can easily get a copy of the keys made. That doesn't solve my probelm at all.
I've had such a good relationship with my previous drivers that it was never a problem but in light of this guy's attitude, I don't trust him in the afternath.
I suppose I can just take the truck in Monday and send him his check for the balance after my costs. It'll only be about $180.00.
I'll even be nice and not charge for my time, although I should.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
I was just thinking, he wants to be in charge. So let him be the big boy and decide if he wants to be a decent human being or pay for the hassle. I hate dealing with people who think if they're just stubborn enough that they can get someone else to cave in. Always give them an option. Then go worry about something else.Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
I've talked to him twice about this in the past week. Both times I was very nice.
This last time, I told him again that I need to be able to secure my truck and his response was that his attorney told him he has a right to hold my keys. This is when I decided that a lock change might just be in order.
Actually, for clarification, I owe him 395 but he owes me 100 for fuel that I put in the truck to help him along when he started... which I haven't deducted from his pay yet. so, his final check would be 295 unless I feel it is necessary to get new locks which would leave him 115 or so.
Again, his having the keys isn't keeping me from using my truck but it is just causing me the grief of there being another set out there so I can't be confident that the truck is secure.
His holding these keys isn't really giving him any leverage in the sense that I can't use my truck, it is just a major annoyance and security issue. He just thinks he is being clever.
At this point I think giving him an ultimatum is useless as he's the kind of smartazz that would just get extra keys made and then give me my set. I am not even sure that if I just pay him and get the keys, that I trust him to be decent and not be holding a copy anyhow. So I would be inclined, at this point, to have the locks changed anyhow.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete,
You're a real piece of work. You screwed him and now you're afraid he'll screw you, so you're going to screw him again. Like that's going to protect your truck.
I have to put this thread on ignore before I put a hammer thru my monitor.
SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
How exactly do you figure I screwed him?
By paying him well?
By paying him for things along the way that I didn't have to pay him for?
Because I let him string me along for well over a week while I held his job even though he had no intention of returning to it?
Maybe it was the time I drove and picked him up because one of his cars had problems and I didn't want to make his GF drive him here and back?
PLEASE, let me know where exactly I screwed this guy.
He's the only one that has shown he can't be trusted.
This truck costs me a SUBSTANTIAL amount of money to own and operate. His little games have cost me a fair amount because I didn't want to be the bad guy and screw him over by replacing him.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
The IRS doesn't care what your contract says. He is/was an employee.
He drives your truck, you insure it, you pay him for the fuel, he cannot use the truck to deliver for anyone else, he has zero capital invested in the venture.
See: Tax Information for Small Businesses
The labor board, the courts, The WC board, and the SSA will agree with the IRS. You should too. You really really don't want the authorities involved in this.
There is no Tort in rekeying the locks, so you can't legally charge him for that either.
Quit being the kind of Boss you would never work for and pay him.
BTW, $.40/mile for 10 hrs driving in an 11 hr day works out to $19.20/hr including Labor Burden and OTR expenses which are gonna run maybe $20/day meals and $80/ week room, or $180/week or 9 hours gross receipts. Basically working 1 day a week for free.
BIG BUCKS. Not.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
No he does not pay him for the fuel.He said that he paid him a fixed milage and he estimated what the fuel cost was.And I am guessing that the milage is a computed one, not the actual milage drive.If he finds a an alternate road that save toils them he makes that much more.If he runes into a construction detore and burns that much more gas he makes less..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You've got it right, Bill. I pay him a fixed rate based upon the haul.
If the job sells at 547 miles, then he gets paid at the rate of 547 miles.... and he covers all his own expense.
If I was subbing out siding jobs to guys that bought their own materials and I paid them accordingly, with the understanding that the sub gets paid by no later than 45 days... but that if the money comes in prior to that (which it will 90% of the time, in less than 2 weeks), they get paid immediately upon that receipt.... would it be any different?
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete,You keep on about the agreement.What did the agreement say about how to end the agreement and how keys and such would be disposed of?What exactly was the termination clause?A lot of stuff hinges on whether he was a bona fide subcontractor or whether he was in fact an employee.I don'tr mean by your definition of terms. I mena by what the govt uses to define them.One of the principles of law is that you cannot enforce a contract if it forms a relationship in a way that is outside the provisions of law.Lotta guys stretch this with some wild interpretations or a philosophy that would make Aynn Rand blush - but an objectivist or libertarian would have paid the guy long ago and changed the keys
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Actually, keys were to be dropped off here whenever the truck was in town for overnight or longer. He didn't do that the last time the truck came in.
The agreement is that he gets paid as I've repeatedly told those here that have been paying attention. He knew this before signing on. He also was required to have enough finances to operate for 2 weeks minimum at full capacity.... before coming to work for me.
Regardless of what you THINK the legal arrangement might be..... we operate on an agreement of terms. That does not change because you want it to or just because you want to be right.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
At this point, I'd be re-keying it no matter what...take it from there.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying,"Damn... that was fun!"
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Pete, What I want doesn't make a bean's worth of difference. I don't want a darn thing in this deal. What YOU wanted was advice. Quit bellyaching when you don't hear just what you want.Now then -
"The agreement is that he gets paid as I've repeatedly told those here that have been paying attention. "I've been paying attention good and I know how often you have said that.
But you tiotally missed the point I was making.
From all you have said, the guy is only a subcontractor in your mind and not in the eyes of the law as far as I understand it. The law has rules for how to pay an employee when employment ceases.So if the law defines him as an employee, your verbal agreement has no bearing.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
when ever somebody quit or get terminated at my company, all the lock get change anyway. so change the lock and pay the dude off.I thought if you get fired, you have to pay that day, but if you quit, its the next pay period.Ok, them where he is, I get the keys from him, but somebody going get bloody
leave out the piddly stuff or it will all look piddly ~Splintergroupie '06He who angers you, controls you.Get over it....... The angry going eat you up. ~Brownbagg '06
Hey, don't look at me, I'm mentally retireded.
http://www.eandi.org/ThePulse/Commentary/30_2001.htmlhttp://www.fklaborlaw.com/construction-law/articles/construction-fairness-contracting.htmlIt appears from a brief look at several Googled references that Ohio is one of few states that allows a pay-when-paid clause to be employed in relationships with subcontractors. Many states disallow them even to the point of finding them unconstitutional.Since you operate this in more than one state, that means you need to know if such clauses are enforceable there too, not to mention how the ICC looks at them.By the time you know all you need to know, your legal bills will be higher than this smuck driver's wages due
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I thought you said you were payiung attention.
he is not on a "pay when paid" arrangement. He is on a 45 day pay arrangement unless I receive monies sooner, which I almost always do. You might think that that is the same thing but it is far from the same.
"Pay when paid" is a virtually open-ended agreement. He is guaranteed payment within 45 days, essentially, with the understanding that most pay will be received in far less time (primarily 2 weeks).
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete,You're falling back on this agreement that you say you have both entered in to.What agreement do you have in place for termination of employees? I'm guessing there is no agreement specifically speaking to separation so you're getting into the differences between your opinion and his.Again, why waste this much time on a $295 for less than 45 days?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I guess I'm just aggravated over the fact that this twerp thinks that he is strongarming me by holding the keys.... well he's a twerp, that's 6'6"...lol
Truth is, after thinking it over, I'll take the final check to his house, unannounced and retrieve the keys. If he continues his BS, like perhaps demanding that my check clear before he hands them over or that I need to give cash, then I'll keep the check, turn around and head off to have the locks replaced on his dime.
I originally wanted to teach him a lesson about how wise he thinks he is. I'd win, no doubt. But the added aggravation is probably not worth it over a know-nothing punk.
I think that my final solution is more than fair.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
HEY, which do you like to use best ,tarpaper or tyvek? i like tarpaper.
were buring bandwidth and you don't give a krap what is said here anyways!!!
larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Hey, Pete!
Be happy my son's B-day.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Hey Boss.
Me and the boys will go over and have a talk with the guy. Have not broken some knee caps in awhile. Guedo been itching for some excise. Teach that punk to dis respect the boss. Dont worry , we wont hurt him.........bad.....
pete for governor!!
Perhaps the fellow is forgetful.
Everyone has those times.
Try remembering every birthday and anniversary
Especially when you get old
I doubt he realises the importance of a secure truck.
Seriously though; who would
After today I'll promise to see it from the other guy's point of view.
No wonder we can't all get along.
After all, if we could all see it the other guy's way
Society would be so much better off.
Say a little prayer.
Sounds like there's a job open driving a truck. Anyone up to it? Oh, yeah, I forgot. You have to finance it to start and bring your own keys. You're just working for fun, right?
No,he's Right. Is not.Is too.Is not.Is too, just ask him.
Pete, are you right?
Damn Right!
So, there. Case closed.
Pete's Right.He wins.......and rekeys everything forever after....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
been meaning to ask ...
what's your favorite beach?
mine ... Negril, Jamaica. Been a while since we made it there ...
last summer hit the second fav ... Wildwood, NJ.
different reasons ... different beaches ... same idea.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
My favorite is where I live now. The Long Beach Peninsula, Washington state. We are at the mouth of the Columbia River. A little over 25-26 miles long and you can drive almost all of it. From Seaview, Wa. to the tip minus the Willapa Wildlife Refuge at the northern tip of about 3 miles. I live about a 20 minute walk to the ocean or the bay.
Wide, sandy. Great clamming, surf casting, kite flying. Most times almost empty for long stretches. Not for sun bathing, though. A warm day for us in summer is 75* but the surf is beautiful. Lot of rip tides. Great for beachcombing or just sitting in the dunes and watching.....the surf. Biking is possible on the beach because of the wide hard sand at lower tides.
Due to shoals and shallow bay behind us there is little pleasure boating. But, the worlds greatest oysters. Then from nearby we have salmon, sturgeon,crab,mussels, halibut, ocean perch, etc. I miss lobsters, though. I spent many years along the Maine coast and the Canadian Maritimes. PEI, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland just enthrall me. We elected to stay in this area to be near children and grandchildren. Strange how our plans can change. We tend to frequent the more temperate, slightly cooler coastal areas. The Oregon and Washington coasts are great because so much of them are accessible by anyone. Hundreds of miles of open beaches and state parks.
Warm weather beaches, though it's been years since I've been to them, would be Coronado, Biloxi and just about anywhere along the Carolinas, especially the outer banks. Northern France would be Le Touqet-Paris Plage. I've never been to the Caribbean. Cape May and Rehoboth are/were really nice, as well. I'm not fond of very busy areas. I go to the shore to relax and decompress....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
sounds too cold for my blood.
I love the 4 seasons ... and my wife swears cold doesn't affect any one in my family ...
or our 5 yr old ... (still waiting to see how the 3 month old gets acclimated) ...
but I do love a good warm ocean breeze and warm waters to swim in.
someday ... we'll retire to that beach in Negril.
mostly because where it is ... partly because it's so damn cheap!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
<<<but I do love a good warm ocean breeze and warm waters to swim in.>>>
..or any beach they are shooting the SI swimsuit issue..
That's it! You need a job assisting the photogs or adjusting the swimsuits. :0)...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
I'm an old time bartender ...
so the natural thinking is ... retirement ...?
beach bar!
and I know I can get a hell of a deal on beach bar/hotels ...
in ... where ...
all together now ...
Negril!
so I'm guessing that's where we'll end up ... working ...
already have a great contact in the area ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
mine ... Negril, Jamaica. Been a while since we made it there ...<<<<<
Hey JEff...while you were gone guess where I took the family 4 xmas : )
The Rock House for a week : )))))
I should send you some pic.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying,"Damn... that was fun!"
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
almost made it back this past summer.
week of the Fest, actually! Knew we were going to the beach for an official summer family vacation. Settled on Wildwood coupla months before ... but never made reservations. Plans were to drive there and find the best rate in person ... "managers discount" so to speak.
Maybe 2 weeks before ... I looked into airfare for JA ... and realized with our dirt cheap place to stay ... the Yacht Club ... and knowing their dirt cheap dinner deals ... we were looking at pretty much the same money ... for Wildwood or Negril!
becamse real tempting ... till we realized we'd never get the passports in time w/o driving across the state to Philly to apply directly. So we decided to just go with the set plans ...
Now that we are set on a Fest this summer ... thinking ... maybe this winter?
somehow?
I know you're looking to eventially sell and move ... ever consider Negril?
we're seriously looking long term at settling there. Talked to our old buddy at the Yacht Club about opening a biz ... small hotel/bar seems to be the best idea. Figure who and how to pay off as ya go ... lotsa bribes to fit in as an outsider.
last time I looked on line ... there was a fully outfitted "resort" on the cliffs going for $220K! 8 or 10 cabins ... haven't looked for a year or so ... might be time to check in.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I know you're looking to eventially sell and move ... ever consider Negril?<<Course! While we were there we hooked up with Eddie. He's lived there his whole life and his three brothers are the owners and run "Three Dives"...the best place to eat in Negril if you ask me...a few minutes walk from the Rock House on the same side.
We spent all week with Eddie...he took us "everywhere" in his car. Spent a lot of time up in Orange Hills away from the tourists and with the "real" locals. We spent time looking at properties and just hanging out with his friends up there : )
"Nothing" is cheap to buy there anymore and unless you have big bucks you ain't gonna make a go of running a hotel/motel or whatever. The money is in those expensive places.
KAtrina and I were looking more at building and flipping for a cpl/few years like we've been doing here but I think we'll just keep it as a place to take a vacation.
Shoot me a real Emailw/ youre Email addy if you want and I'll send you a bunch of photos.
Sure ain't like it was when I was there last...The west end at the cliffs is but not the beach area...echhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
"When you point your finger, you got three long fingers pointing back at you". Mark Knophler
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
well, buck... didn't take you long to screw up this thread..
c'mon , man, pete is in deep doo-doo and you're schmoozin with some aged-hippy about jamaica...
sheeez, louiseMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Pete-- I just read all 132 posts so far-----and I gotta say--I enjoyed this HUGELY.
Your loss is my gain !
Perhaps what I have enjoyed the most----------is all the folks who clearly don't know what they are talking about in this matter------telling you that YOU don't know what YOU are talking about--------
typical breaktime fun------'cause these guys are fairly expert in THEIR specialties---they think that expertise applies to trucking law,LOL
Personally--I don't know------but I bet your arrangement is perfectly legal
and as far as ethical--------I don't have a problem with that either. I assume you and the driver are both big boys--------you both knew the deal when you entered into it----------looks like a fairley bad deal for the driver-------but if he had his eyes open when he entered the deal---that's HIS problem.
the thing that DOES suprise me---is that you have hired these drivers previousley----and yet THIS guys behavior suprises you!
my brother is a teamster-driven for the same company for like 30 years-------------he and his co-workers ENTIRE reason for existance--is to involve themselves in these disputes. they THRIVE on it---they absolutely LOVE these squabbles----it validates their self images as rugged individualist cowboys-----it's a total buzz for these guys.
individual exceptions--but as a group---they spend their life LOOKING for situations where they feel disrespected, or that the company isn't treating them "fairly"-----as a group they have about a 9 year olds view of black and white/right or wrong.
they would rather LOSE unlimited amounts of money--as long as they feel "RIGHTEOUS"-----rather than earn $$$$ while suspecting "the company" screwed them out of $32 in tolls or whatever.
Of course--YOU are showing the same traits here on this one---ironic, Huh?
Now---if you really wanted to screw with the guy----what you SHOULD have done----was paid him off instantly---and with a smile-----maybe even given him a little EXTRA---patted him on the back---told him ya hated to see him go-----------
see---he doesn't really CARE about the $300----what he CARES about--is he wants to go through life feeling everyone is out to screw him( in reality-he constantly screws himself)
you were gonna pay him the money eventually anyhow----so this costs you nothing AND you get to mess with his physchotic head!
Best of luck to you,
stephen
stephen... exactly... you put the case in a nutshell..
when guys get fired. i want to pay them off and move them along.. with no repercussions
when guys quit.. i want them thinking.. "gee, maybe i should have stayed with them.. they weren't so bad after all"
so your ...<<<
Now---if you really wanted to screw with the guy----what you SHOULD have done----was paid him off instantly---and with a smile-----maybe even given him a little EXTRA---patted him on the back---told him ya hated to see him go-----------
see---he doesn't really CARE about the $300----what he CARES about--is he wants to go through life feeling everyone is out to screw him( in reality-he constantly screws himself)
you were gonna pay him the money eventually anyhow----so this costs you nothing AND you get to mess with his physchotic head!>>>>
when they walk away smiling .. with regret about leaving.... hmmmmmmmMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
>when guys get fired. i want to pay them off and move them along.. with no repercussions
>when guys quit.. i want them thinking...But that's just you. Your flaw is thinking ahead and thinking about good business practices. Some guys apparently want them thinking only, "Ohhhhh, he's a bad MF."The more I read here the happier I am to work alone and have clients I only know via email! Our major form of entertainment is creating houses they like. That's waaaaaay too boring for the "my cajones are bigger than yours" crowd.Here's a completely unrelated story for ya. Talked to a guy about a new design for Swain County, in Western NC. He's a builder. He's doing a cut-in on a new lot. Talks to an excavator. The excavator says he needs to be paid up front in cash. Guy I'm talking to says, "I'm doing house on a draw. I can't front you cash. Besides, you got a million dollars in equipment--track hoe, big dozer, loader, etc. Whatcha need cash for?" Excavator says, "Because if I take checks and put it on the books, they'll kick me off welfare!"
Wasn't it you that once paid an excavator type up front and waved good-bye to the money?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I absolutely did. Now, he didn't ask for it upfront for the whole job. He asked for move-in costs and money to buy materials. And it was after we'd done tens of thousands of dollars in business over 5 prior years. Only after he walked did his ex tell me how he squandered money, was bi-polar, didn't own the equipment, etc.
It's nothing to do with making him think I'm a bad mo fo. Its to do with not letting some punk strongarm me and reward him for this behavior amonst other poor behavior.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
This reminds of the saying...
"Possession is 9/10ths of the law"
And it seems that the keys are more important than the cash...
You are so torqued because he is beating you at your own game.
Beating me at what game?
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
your game...the control game.
he owns you right now.
Mike, agains, I've been more than fair with this guy and extremely accomodating. He strung me along and then on top of that wants to play smart guy. I haven't held back a nickle of his money ... all has been paid in a timely manner and per our agreement.
Even after he strung me along and then quit, I paid him everything that was due, immediately. His final pay of 295 is not due yet and he knows that.
He wants to be a wise guy and I see no reason to reward this behavior. I'd LIKE to show him how this works in the real world and let him pay for the new locks... although I probably won't do it to him.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
pete.... once a guy makes up his mind to quit , the best thing for you is to get him GONE.. so fast he can't figure out what happened..
it is never a question of TEACHING him anything.. it's like Andy Engle and his description of wrestling with pigs in mud.... the pigs like it !
when he talked to you and said he wanted to pick up his checks...
you should have been way ahead of him
" oh, sure... sorry things didn't work out for you .. say.. come on by ... i'll give you those checks PLUS the ones that i haven't been paid for yet..
.. oh, yeah .. don't forget the keys"
you hand him all the checks ( not cash.. you want a record )
you get the keys.. shake hands, wish him well..
he walks away.. thinking
"what have i done?.. did i just quit the best job i've ever had ? "...
the best boss i ever worked for would have handled it just like that ....
and i wanna be just like him when i grow up
c'mon , pete.... he already knows you're macho.. now you want to show him you're also MORE than fair...
what is the downside ?... he's gonna think he got one over on you ?... hah, hah, hah... when pigs fly
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/18/2007 12:23 pm ET by MikeSmith
damn, son.. you're smarter than this ex-driver...
and telling piffen you don't want to play his game.. c'mon.. it's ALL a game..
you're trying the winning thru intimidation route... and that always works so well, don't it ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"you're trying the winning thru intimidation route... and that always works so well, don't it ?"
The big swashbuckling businessman who lets his driver carry his receivables. laughable.
Frickenincredible how he twists and turns to preserve the macho image, blind to the regulatory, labour and tax weaknesses of his position. With his cash flow interrupted by the price of a lock change.
Scary to imagine our guy Pete behind the big desk in the Ohio Governor's mansion. He can't manage a disgruntled truck driver and the keys to a fleet of one. Or humanely dispatch a 'possum, iirc.
But wants to run the show in Ohio. lol.
pierre...
<<<<Or humanely dispatch a 'possum, iirc.>>>
would you be referring to a raccoon ?
mebbe a RI raccoon ?
and a certain Governor Blowhard..
( BTW.... a media favorite.. always good for a quote )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
So Carcieri is characterized as a blowhard?
Google says that Carcieri is thought of as "being overly combative in negotiations".
Two of a pair, I guess.
Never heard of them RI raccoons.
If they're as fast moving as Ohio 'possums, don't hire Pete to get rid of em, unless as a contractor where he has to buy his own ammo and reline his own barrels.
I'm always amused at how vindictive jealous people can be. Isn't envy a deadly sin?
Is there anything else you care to lump into your big chance to "stick it to the man"? lol.
I can only assume that is the case as you certainly do not understand the trucking business or the matter at hand.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete, your RIGHT in this situation do not back down. Most of these people , not all are repeating what they've read or heard. Not necessacrially correct. Its your stuff, do what the hell you want. And now every one can whine about what you did. As far as I'm concerned its mind over matter. I don't mind what they have to say and what they say doesn't matter anyway.
Talk about a bad case of transference. lol.
Pete, Pete, Pete. What you see as vindictiveness is just my attempt to open the eyes and ears that you stubbornly keep shut. You're not in High School anymore...time to see beyond trying to impress the tribe with your toughness.
It's time to grow up and act like a responsible businessman: give the driver a certified cheque for what he's earned under your benevolent and munificient gaze, ask for the keys, change the locks, and get on with your business and your life. Next time, structure your business dealings otherwise.
Letting go and reclaiming your power is what you need to do. Getting on with your life is what the majority of those whose advice you sought have told you to do.
If I've tweaked your ears in the process of learning you something that gets covered in college Business 102, consider that the price of sound business advice.
Pierre,
I really don't feel the need to impress anyone with how tough I am. Maybe you felt threatened by my hving an impression of toughness upon you but it was probably just your insecurites creating that feeling, not my intentfull actions. That's OK, it's likely my fault for not being more gingerly around certain betas here. Can you forgive me?
I know that you may have been blinded by your fear but if you read carefully you'd know that I've kept up every aspect of my business dealings in this matter. THAT is business basics.
You'd also know that my life continues nonetheless, as does the use of the truck. The extent of my expense is time here debating the points of the matter and learning about the sensitivities and insecurities of others.
But the upside is that it is a nice change from the way I usually spend my time here arguing politics and other points.
I have found that the more I do and accomplish, the more certain people are apparently threatened by me or are envious of me. I make no apologies for being so spectacular. I do feel bad though that I hurt your sensitivities. Would you like a signed picture of me? Maybe then you could feel that we've grown closer since I've paid you some special attention and your need to feel threatened would subside. Send me your address and I'll send it right out.
Be wanting to patch it up with the betas.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Why, thank you kind and wise Sir, for being so transparent.
if you was a secured freight hauler, the fbi would of been over his house the first afternoon because holding the keys would of been a security breech. and he wouldnt been sleeping at his house that night.
i've gotten a kick out of this alpha-beta talk...I just thought that I'd mention that - like Damascus steel, an Alpha/Beta alloy is far stronger than either alone.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>i've gotten a kick out of this alpha-beta talk...The last time I heard so much bragging about alphabetas was from little Johnny Busch when he learned his A-B-C's in kindergarten.
What would a Canadian know about Ohio law or IRS and its really none of your friken business anyway. Typical foriegner wants to run our country
Oh.. he just wants to get his digs in. Typical behavior from him.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
This is why I don't post more often Mooney. It just po's me when I see every one shrink up and get scary when someones right.
Thank you for your insight.
PeteI am sure that for $295 you can find some one to "take care of him".Problem solved. And it does not matter if his remains has a set of keys or not..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
me,me,me. 10 dollars. myself and the boys need some exicese. Come on boys, load up, we going on a wing ding.
It's really not a bad deal for the driver at all.
A full legal day of driving will yield a sum AFTER fuel and tolls of about $240 +/-. I bet most guys on this board are hoping to earn a target of $300 per day (which is the number I've seen and heard often stated as a goal over the years). For their $300, they must have years of experience, expertise, tools, truck, insurance, etc. for my guy to earn $240 per day, he needs to bring cash and be able to drive a 24' straight truck.... no special license (CDL), none of his own insurance, no registration, etc. Oh yeah, he must pass a physical which my doc does for 48 bucks, cash.
My benefit is that I can more clearly establich a subcontractor relationship. I hopefully get guys that are more responsible because they too have an investment in the venture. I could tell you many stories of how much money I've spent as the result of driver mistakes, driving habits, etc.
All in all, this is a good arrangement for a driver. My drivers make more than many guys that have gone to trucking school, acquired a class A CDL, and drive big rigs for a living.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete, Just a clarification for me please.
You say the driver makes :
""A full legal day of driving will yield a sum AFTER fuel and tolls of about $240 +/-.""
And compare that to contractors.
How many full days does he get in during a calender month ?
If it is a full 5 days a week , 52 weeks a yr. then he is making fairly good money, but if the month is filled with blank days , partial days etc. then he isn't.
A lot of contractors come to realize that they have to charge a high hourly rate or calculate one into their pricing precisely because they don't work 2080 hrs. a yr.
5 or 6 days a week is normal... that is largely up to the driver too. I understand that a guy can get burnbt out easily so I tell them that if they are going someplace nice and want to spend a few days, let me know and we'll schedule it that way. For instance, a driver heading to Daytona now while it is so crappy here with the Cleveland weather, might want to enjoy a few days on the beaches in the sun.
I even try to route them to places that they want to go to. It's not always easy to do but if they have a request, I try to accomodate it.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
"For instance, a driver heading to Daytona now while it is so crappy here with the Cleveland weather, might want to enjoy a few days on the beaches in the sun.I even try to route them to places that they want to go to. It's not always easy to do but if they have a request, I try to accomodate it."Pete, all this stuff about what a great guy you are to work for - I don't doubnt that in the least.But THAt is WHILE they are working for you. Has nothing whatsoever to do with NOW because he ain't working for you anymore.The fact that you keep emphasising this about being such a great guy to work for adds credence to the whole thing that your pride is hurt since he has chosen not to work for you anymore and he are just out to prove yourself more of a man by getting up over him now that it is all past history.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I know I'm a good guy to work for. I can also be less than fun to work for if you screw off. I can be rather forward at times, to put it nicely.
I don't care that this guy doesn't want to work for me at all. Many come and go and frankly the nature of trucking requires a special kind of person.... the turnover rate is high and I'm used to it.
I've given great references to all of my past drivers for other jobs.... and they've all quit.
The difference here is that this guy wasn't on the up and up. He wanted to take some time for persaonl matters.... during a time when we had some bad weather anyhow, I let him on his word that he was still driving for me. I'm pretty easy to deal with.
However, it was a ruse bu the driver, for whatever reason. WhenI finally got hold of him to tell him that there were 3 checks waiting for him and to bring the keys by is when I knew for certain he wasn't coming back. That's fine.... yeah I was a little ticked that he played me along when I could have been working on getting another driver ready.
BUT... when the guy decides he's gonna also strongarm me and hold my keys... that's when I feel like he's really pushing his luck and my buttons.
I immediately dropped his checks in the mail anyhow. No problems for me.
I called a few days later and askd if he'd gotten them. He had. I said I need those keys back to secure the truck and he said that he spoke with an attorney and was in his rights to keep them until he got his final check.
I don't know if he talked to anyone and frankly don't care. My only problem is his being a wiseguy after already playing other games with me.
I know I didn't have to retell the whole story but I know that for every detail I leave out I'll have another poster here jumping on my back for some other percieved injustice. I figured the more I type, the better. Luckily, I type fast.
Gotta go to the store, catch you all later.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
I'll just leave you to it then. I know you've heard enuf of me and I don't have anything else to add anyways.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Seems like it would be much simpler to just give him the money still owed and get your keys back and be done with it. Who cares if he is strongarming you. The sooner the whole thing is done the better.
I already figured that I'll take the check to his house and get the keys.
If he plays additional games at that point, then I'll keep the check and get the truck rekeyed on his dime.
I know I said this earlier but it could easily have gotten lost in the vast amount of stuff in this thread.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete My father (RIP) was like this. Stubborn to the bitter end. Would fight everybody over a smallest thing, and when he lost he fought the lawyers. When we did not agree with him he fought with us. He died a bitter man blaming us for the ills that befell him. This thread is 190 posts long and you are still arguing. Good luck with your battle.Webber34Trade: Windows and doors
Location: Montreal
Stephen, you hit the nail on the head!
Pete, you let your emotions make your decisions. Bad idea....bad for the karma. Bad, bad, bad.
Since this has happened, ask yourself " Has your life been calmer, more productive, happier in any way?"
If you had just payed the guy off, in spite of your legal agreement, and gotten your keys, and then just moved on...how much more positive energy would be flowing around you and your household?
If you have devoted more than five seconds of talk about this to your family, friends or business associates, you've wasted a lot of precious time. That includes family time, business time and personal time.
Life is too short. Dont' try to show this guy you have stronger arms. He already knows that....you have the pen and check.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
blue---
i am about 80% sympathetic to Pete's situation-----
because I know----if there is a" trade"----that attracts a higher percentage of drug addled,potentially violent, wackos than roofing----it's truck driving.( probably a lot of former roofers end up as truck drivers)
this exact type of situation is part of why I operate without direct employees now-----when i was an employer--EVERY EFFEN day was to some extent involved with this sort of nonsense.
luckily----my dad taught me ONE important lesson-------at about age 16-17----starting to come into a man sized body-----feeling pretty tough----he caught me struttin around the house one day---pulled me aside-----------
" listen stephen---you think you are tough?-- I gotta tell you--no matter how tough you are--or THINK you are---there will ALWAYS be somebody tougher---always. so don't even bother going into the tough guy business."
now----as luck would have it---the roofing business CONSTANTLY brings me into enforced contact with "tough guys"--or guys who think they are tough. I don't care if they ALL think i am the biggest puzzy to ever walk the streets----- in fact I will TELL 'em what a puzzy I am
what do I care?---they have the tatoos--- I have the money
tell ya what else-----I don't think so fast on my feet-----and these situations come up time and time and time again.
but i think things through in advance pretty well-----so I already know how to handle these repetitive situations.
think ya get a guy to carry 80# bundles of shingles up a ladder all day in august by being tougher than HIM?---naw----tell HIM how much tougher HE is than YOU.
Pete's ex driver?---know why I would have paid him immediately, with a smile, ---and a little extra besides---along with a metaphorical pat on the back and verbal well wishes??????????????
because by NOW I would have moved on with my life----and the driver would be thinking-------wait a minute----why did steve pay me extra?----he wouldn't pay me extra if I wasn't leaving money on the table----what did I miss,? what did I pass up?----and it will eat away at him---'cause he will NEVER figure it out.
on the other hand---- If the driver is a decent guy---it won't bother him at all----he will just think----that was nice of steve to give me a little extra to help me on my way----
See---win/win
either way---I have my keys---DAYS ago. ZERO confrontation. It didn't cost me anything---- we were always gonna pay him no matter what( other than the little "bonus" which we through in for MY amusement)
gotta tell you,Blue------- I can't express how absolutely BLISSFULL life is without employees
the weight falls off----- I don't even keep beer in the house anymore----no stress to relieve
If I could figure out how to eliminate customers as well-----life would be perfect! :>)
Best wishes, Stephen
"f I could figure out how to eliminate customers as well-----life would be perfect! :>)"
I did and I dont have employees other than subs with an ocaisonal one person helper.
Pretty darn nice .
Tim
ah,yes-----but Tim, you really DO have employees--------------
you just CALL them tenants
but the reality is------they are working to pay off your mortgages---ain't they ?
my understanding is---they are pretty annoying to deal with as well????
LOL,
Stephen
Nothing close . Ive got some nice tennants. Id say they were hand picked .
I can see it being realitive though by example . I always looked at the tennants I had to train as assoiated like step children. Not employees. Thats for the new twist.
Tim
Stephen, I fully understand your bliss! I've done several years in the framing business without a single employee at one time or another.
I'm also sympathetic to Pete but have also moved through his phase of wanting to teach any of these types guys a lesson. I know they don't learn, so why should I bother? Right?
He is wasting so much mental energy..it's silly.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
"he is not on a "pay when paid" arrangement. He is on a 45 day pay arrangement unless I receive monies sooner, which I almost always do."That is part of your evolving description of the agreement, but is not how you described it in the beginning, making it clear especially in light of your stubborn refusal to do anything but pay him WHEN you get paid that the mahjor emphasis IS on paying when you get paid in essence! You ca ddescribe it all kinds of ways but you are refusing to do anything but pay him when you get paid, to your own harm.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
If you hadn't picked up on the scope fo the agreement until now, then like I told you earlier, you haven't been paying attention.
This reminds me of the addage about why you have two ears (two eyes in this case) and one mouth.... so you can listen (read) more than you talk.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
i am just curious...is this how your operation runs
1.) hire a guy for a set rate
2.)provide a box truck
3.)secure business
4.)let the employee handle the following
- fuel
- tolls
- per deim
- finance your payroll
that is the wrong way to treat your employees if you ask me.
no ones caught on this guy is a SUB
catfish.. i know you're a pretty clever guy..
know the phrase ?... " don't pizz on my leg and tell me it's raining " ?
well.. you can call the guy anything you want....
and you can macho the whole thing and WIN big... at what cost ?
or you can read a different book .. like Sun T-zu's " Art of War"
the idea is to come out of this in the best shape to go forward.. Pete is not keeping his eye on the ball ... he's more intent on pizzing on the guy's leg... a lot of fun ....but so what ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I would call the labor board and see if this is legal.1) Rekey the truck2) called the guy, come get your check3) give him a check minust rekey bill for $124) hey, call the labor boardremember you are in charge, not him
he is a legal SUB check petes earlier posts. Thousands of drivers drive on contracts just like this. Check with Bennett Motor Express in McDonough, GA. I drove for them for 2 years on the same kind of deal. The man is a contract driver.
good for him.... who cares ?
pete could have settled this with one trip ... one meeting.... but NOOOOOooooo
in the end.. it doesn't seem like smart business to meMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
>in the end.. it doesn't seem like smart business to meBut that's besides the point. I've seen the error of my thinking and come to agree with others that the most important things are to be right and to not be disrespected by a punk. Get with it, Mike. Man up. :)
It was interesting reading this whole thread especially in light of the cover story in this months Remodeling Magazine is entitled Subs or Employees.
catfish - "he is a legal SUB check petes earlier posts."
I'm wondering just what did you read in Pete's earlier posts that makes you think this guy is a legal sub? Can you point me to the specific post and text? Because from what I read I'm reminded of the old saying: "When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck." and this guy is very clearly an employee.
There are 20 Common Law Factors (or "20 Questions") the IRS uses to determine whether workers are employees and looks for "no" answers to questions 1-16 "yes" answers to questions 17-20 for the worker to be considered an independent contractor and two questions really stick out for me making me think this guy is an employee.
Is the worker required to comply with instructions about when, where and how the work is done?
Is the worker provided training that would enable him/her to perform a job in a particular method or manner?
Are the services provided by the worker an integral part of the business' operations?
Must the services be rendered personally?
Does the business hire, supervise, or pay assistants to help the worker on the job?
Is there a continuing relationship between the worker and the person for whom the services are performed?
Does the recipient of the services set the work schedule?
Is the worker required to devote his/her full time to the person he/she performs services for?
Is the work performed at the place of business of the company or at specific places set by the company?
Does the recipient of the services direct the sequence in which the work must be done?
Are regular oral or written reports required to be submitted by the worker?
Is the method of payment hourly, weekly, monthly (as opposed to commission or by the job?)
Are business and/or traveling expenses reimbursed?
Does the company furnish tools and materials used by the worker?
Has the worker failed to invest in equipment or facilities used to provide the services?
Does the arrangement put the person in a position or realizing either a profit or loss on the work?
Does the worker perform services exclusively for the company rather than working for a number of companies at the same time?
Does the worker in fact make his/her services regularly available to the general public?
Is the worker subject to dismissal for reasons other than non-performance of the contract specifications?
Can the worker terminate his/her relationship without incurring a liability for failure to complete the job?
The guy was driving a truck that Pete owns not his own vehicle so therefore wasn't furnishing his own tools and materials and didn't have any investment in the equipment and facilities to provide the service.
Number 17 & 18 also stick out in that I doubt the guy was performing the driving services for other companies too but we don't have any way of knowing that for sure.
And one other thing that would be a dead giveaway and shoot the pooch in any argument Pete might have with an IRS agent were that agent to see it is that Pete even refers to the guy as an employee. The title Pete gave to the bloody topic is "Employee won't return keys"! Pete called the guy an employee. A freudian slip? He didn't title the discussion "Subcontractor won't return keys" or "Independent Contractor won't return keys". He called the guy an EMPLOYEE.
Just saying the guy is an Independent Contractor doesn't make the guy one. It needs to meet the IRS definition.
"Thousands of drivers drive on contracts just like this. Check with Bennett Motor Express in McDonough, GA. I drove for them for 2 years on the same kind of deal. The man is a contract driver."
Thousands? Most every, in fact every contract driver I know supplies his own vehicle or vehicles. This Bennett Motor Express very well might have provided you with a truck and called you an independent contractor but if they did so the did that illegally and they are probably just thrilled you are talking about them in public in that regard.
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Bennett's website states they are an owner/operator trucking co. A little different than Pete's situation.
Pete, If i were you get the truck rekeyed and get it on the road. Call this joker up and say your cheques here waiting for you you can come and pick it up. Guys like this are funny they say there holding out for money but when you tell them that they never show. I had a similair problem with one of my dump truck drivers. The guy never seemed to get anything done through out the day. All the other drivers said he was late or missing for a long time. So one day I borrowed my friends truck(so he wouldn't reconize it) and followed him. Turns out he was hanging out at his girlfriends and then go every hour or so to get a load. I took pictures called him into my office and told him he was fired.
He seemed to feel pretty bad so I went easy on him. I asked him for his 2 way phone that we give to all our drivers and he said he left it at home. I shouldn't of trusted him, but I said bring it in at the end of the week when you pick up your cheque. He never showed up or answered his house phone or the cell phone. I hounded him and hounded him even went to the extreme of going to his girlfriends house and asking where he was. Despite the fact that his truck was there she said he wasn't there.
After a month of calling him and leaving messages, I came to my shop early one morning to find tire tracks in the snow that lead to the gas pumps. I knew no one should have been there that night so I checked the security tapes. Turns out this guy had been stealing fuel from me for months. He knew the code to open the gate and had a key made for my gas pumps.Called the police had hime arrested. He ended up in jail for trespassing and theft. So things have a way of working themselves out.
Jerrald,
In the interest of keeping this short... you are wrong. Furthermore, his employment status really has nothing to do with the keys.
The list of IRS criterium you cited is devoid of the caveat about not all points are relatable to all situations.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
pete, i think you deserve a big round of applause...
man , you kept everyone entertained for the whole crappy weekend
good job....
ok
now whadda ya want to talk about next ?...
go on .. throw something up in the air and see who'll salute
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
now whadda ya want to talk about next ?...
There's only two ways it can go from here
(well three if you count calling the OP/Reply a Commie, Hitler or Mexican)
Pete can enlighten us all on how to vent a roof
or
Tell us how much to charge, by the SF of course. ...(just a ballpark number/going rate)
LMAO at Stevens description of truck drivers. That fits about 90% of the truckers out there. Ex roofers. I used to be a Teamster. (reformed)
PeteDraganic - "Jerrald, In the interest of keeping this short... you are wrong. Furthermore, his employment status really has nothing to do with the keys."
First on the futhermore point Pete I wasn't talking about "the keys". You are 100% correct that "his employment status really has nothing to do with the keys."but in regard that whole issue I think your overwhelming hubris (and perhaps cheapness too) got the best of you and you terribly mishandled the situation. When the guy told you he was hanging on the the keys ( for some reason he didn't trust you) you should have just paid him the money regardless of your policy and gotten it over with and gotten yourself back to business making money as soon as you could to make up for the time you wasted with him.
As for "The list of IRS criterium you cited is devoid of the caveat about not all points are relatable to all situations." like I said if walks like a duck...
What possible caveats are there in your situation that make what you're doing an exception to the rules? Plus you even described the guy as an Employee yourself. What was that all about then?
Here by the way is the IRS link to where they provide you with information on all of this: Independent Contractors vs. Employees and here's the section in the Employer's Supplemental Tax Guide pertaining to this too.
Like I said I'm wondering just what makes your situation special? What did you supposedly say to the IRS to get their okay? Explaining that here sure would have cleared this up long ago.
Another thing I was wondering about too just what does your insurance company think about this. In most states company's that write GL policies wont write you a GL policy to cover two different types of business operations especially when one of those business is a construction company. You would at the very least need two seperate GL policies or even two seperate business entities for them to write insurance for you.
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trucking is a whole different ball game than construction, with different rules. In fact, I drove a truck owned by a third party, who then hired bennet to transport them. I picked up a check, a truck, and paperwork, moved it wherever. Picked up another check when paper turned in. Trucking expecially is one of the most regulated industries in this country.
catfish -
"trucking is a whole different ball game than construction, with different rules."
Don't fool yourself in that regard cat. The independent contractors vs employee issue is basically the same in every business across this great country.
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First the 20 questions is no longer used. Look of the IRS website.But of those questions have 2 strong ones on the other side.13. Are business and/or traveling expenses reimbursed?
16. Does the arrangement put the person in a position or realizing either a profit or loss on the work?But to your question.http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=87240.79"Mike, our agreement is legal. Although he uses my truck, he is paid a flat rate per mile for his service. He decides on the method of how he will effect the pickup and delivery of goods. He covers the expenses of performing his work. He assumes the risk of potential loss as well as profit. he is a legal subcontractor according to the IRS.""I know this facet of the argument is nothing but muddying the water but I've spoken with the IRS prior to making the arrangement under which I hire drivers now and am in accordance with the law.".
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BillHartmann - "First the 20 questions is no longer used. Look of the IRS website."
Bill you need to look again at the IRS web site yourself. I don't know if the IRS ever said here's the 20 questions we use but instead some tax consultants somewhere looked at the IRS guidelines and wrote the 20 questions based on what the IRS says. I think if you read through everything there (especially the Employer's Supplemental Tax Guide) you'll see the "20 questions" still very much apply if not more so nowadays than ever. I've hear about more about the IRS cracking down on abuses of the Employee-Independent Contractor issue in the last five years than ever before.
If Pete want to risk having some disgruntled ex so-called "independent contractor" file a complaint with the Department of Labor that opens up a pandora's box that's up to him.
"But of those questions have 2 strong ones on the other side.
13. Are business and/or traveling expenses reimbursed?
16. Does the arrangement put the person in a position or realizing either a profit or loss on the work?"
It was never a matter if answers to some of the questions weighed "on the other side" so to speak. The saying goes if you can answer "yes" to ANY of the first 17 question then the worker is an Employee.
And I think the issue about owning the equipment to do the job is a big deal too from the IRS point of view.
I know of a one time contractor (I think he's out of the business now) who owned all of the scaffolding mixing tools ladders and trucks etc for his stucco operation and used "independent contractors" to apply the coatings and he got busted for it. I mean that's such a friggin obvious abuse. Ya really gotta have the tools and equipment to what you've been contracted to do to be a legitimate independent contractor.
Okay so Pete did say " he is a legal subcontractor according to the IRS."
"I know this facet of the argument is nothing but muddying the water but I've spoken with the IRS prior to making the arrangement under which I hire drivers now and am in accordance with the law." But did Pete give them all the facts or just the ones he wanted to to get the ruling he wanted. I wonder just how did he couch it to them. My advisors (lawyer, accountant, insurance agent) have all said to me not to even try and make the determination myself but to let him look at it becuase my own potential bias could screw me big time in the long run.
I just can't see how a guy can drive your truck in a trucking company and be considered an "independent contractor".
At least we know if Pete ever runs for Governor of Ohio again and gets anywhere with it will find out for sure then what this was all about.
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If you can find the orginal list from the IRS of 20 questions you will find that it says that there are no right or wrong answers. That no question or group of questions determine the status, but rather the summ of ALL of the questions."I think if you read through everything there (especially the Employer's Supplemental Tax Guide) you'll see the "20 questions" still very much apply if not more so nowadays than ever. "Well if you look at the link that you posted it does not use the 20 questions.Instead it breaks it down into 3 areas and then items with in those areas.Also is says; "In any employee-independent contractor determination, ALL INFORMATION that provides evidence of the degree of control and the degree of independence MUST BE CONSIDERED."And look at this booklet from the IRShttp://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/employee_vs_independentcontractor_textonly.pdfIt is based on the same 3 catagories based on type of control.Look at this example.Example:Jones, a truck driver, agrees to deliver a load of lumber for Adams Building Supply Company. Upon arriving at the warehouse, Jones is given an address to which the cargo is to be delivered and advised that the delivery must be completed within 5 days. This is direction of what is to be done rather than how it is to be done and is consistent with Independent contractor status.Example:
Smith, also a truck driver, does local deliveries for the same company. The warehouse manager tells Smith what deliveries have to be made, how to load the cargo in the truck, what route to take, and the order in which the cargo is to be delivered.These are instructions on how the work is to be performed and are consistent with
employee status..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
If I was subbing out siding jobs to guys that bought their own materials and I paid them accordingly, with the understanding that the sub gets paid by no later than 45 days... but that if the money comes in prior to that (which it will 90% of the time, in less than 2 weeks), they get paid immediately upon that receipt.... would it be any different?
Ayep. Totally different. The siders own their own tools, pick their own hours, set their own rates, and can work for anyone.
Pete, you are really pizzed at this guy, and letting what he did control you into making a disasterous mistake.
Take a dispassionate look at just what he did do to you. He acted like a typical, average flake. But, worst of all, he's keeping your $5 keys until you give him his $300 pay. But, even more worsterest than that, he's not bending over and supplying his own vaseline.
In my businesman's opinion, you are legally in the wrong. In my personal opinion you are morally in the wrong.
Dammit, Pete, listen to your comrades and pay the guy and get back to making money for your family.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
One out of four or five ain'ta gonna cut it with the IRS. Besides, it's a relatively fixed proportion of the pay.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
I am not sure what the 1 out of 6 referes to in that document. Because there are a number of different areas and a number of different items on each one.But it interesting that one of the expamples of independent contractor is such a truck driver."The key fact to consider is whether the business retains the RIGHT to control the
worker regardless of whether the business actually exercises that right.
Example:
Jones, a truck driver, agrees to deliver a load of lumber for Adams Building Supply
Company.
Upon arriving at the warehouse, Jones is given an address to which the cargo is to be
delivered and advised that the delivery must be completed within 5 days.
This is direction of what is to be done rather than how it is to be done and is
consistent with Independent contractor status.
Example:
Smith, also a truck driver, does local deliveries for the same company.
The warehouse manager tells Smith what deliveries have to be made, how to load the
cargo in the truck, what route to take, and the order in which the cargo is to be
delivered.
These are instructions on how the work is to be performed and are consistent with
employee status."But they don't give enough details about how payment is made it say that it is idential..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
That guy is a contract driver. Half the big rig drivers drive under the same terms for about 22 cents a mile. I'll determine if you are a contractor or employee by how I, not the IRS pay him. I am not the bookkeeper for you or the federal government. I do not 1099 keep up with your own money, its not my job. This has worked for about 25 years and until I am jailed I will continue to operate that way.
All it takes to draw down heat is one complaint by a driver who doesn't understand the "agreement" the same way you do.
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Pete is totally in the right here, if he backs down ever driver in the state will be by looking for a job
doesn't much matter if he's right or wrong, if he's gonna waste time on this weasle like this instead of running the business for production and profit.If what Hazlett said is right, then Pete is just playing ionto the game and letting this guy play with him
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I'm not playing into the game.... if anything, being nice to this guy has cost me the most money... a grand or three in down time on the truck because he was supposed to be driving when his real intention was to string me along and then quit.
My deciding how to disperse his final 295 is really nothing as far as effort goes.
My business is running fine. Trucking is an aside to what I normally do. It's just one of those things I got into because I could.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
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I'm not playing into the game.... if anything, being nice to this guy has cost me the most money... a grand or three in down time on the truck because he was supposed to be driving when his real intention was to string me along and then quit.
One of the lessons in How to Win Friends and Influence People is to look at things from the other persons point of view.
Pete, if this guy really did set you back a couple of thousand, then he probably thinks your going to try to get even somehow. He's probably afraid that you'll welch on the 295. He's probably lost that much to other guys.
If you were him, what would you do to protect that 295?
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
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Ok Pete, Monday is half over ... how did it turn out?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
It turned out cold and crappy outside with my sick son at home with me.
How about you?
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
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Smarta$$ politician. :) I was inquiring if you had made contact with the driver and rersolved this 200-post discussion."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
That's kind of like asking me... "if you were a con artist, what would you do if...."
Truth is that I've always been one to stnad up on my end of a bargain. I do my end and expect you to do your end. I've been screwed plenty over time, as a result. Sometimes taking pretty big hits. Although I find it more stressful to try and cover every possible downside to every situation because that list never ends.
I'm on a commercial project now for a total of 20k +/-. It's a guy I've done work for before and have a decent realtionship with. No contract. I do a portion of work, bill at the end of the month and he pays at the end of the following month, deducting a retainage of 10%. SOP, except for the non-existent contract. I spend money, assume risk and all without holding something of his hostage.
Even with a contract, I've been on the hook for as much 80k per month from one client (total contract of 187k)... waiting 45-60 days for my pay. That's the life of being a contractor. I could take the safer route and just work for a company but the trade off is partly the fact that I'll earn substantially less. My driver earns more than an employee driver because he assumes some risk too although, not totally because I do guarantee him payment even if the client defaults.
This is not about getting even. If that were the case, he wouldn't have just gotten the 1100 or so I just sent him nor would he ever see the final check.
What this is about is this wiseguy thinking that he can do whatever he feels and there are no reprocussions. Honestly, if he likes those keys so much, he can have them. They'll only cost him 180. More seriously though is that he needs to learn to keep his word. If you think you can be dishonest and unfair ... and that you can get away with whatever misdeeds you want to, then you need to realize that you are not so clever.
Speaking of looking at it from the other man's position.
Assume that you've hired a plumber on your school renovation. You buy all the materials but he keeps them in his van for safe keeping. Your agreement is that he bills end of monthly and you pay end of following after you've submitted to the bank for dispersal of funds from your construction loan... standard agreement for contrat work. Now, he quits after the first month and just runs off. Has all of your needed materials so that you can complete plumbing and get to other trades. He says he's keeping all the plumbing supplies until you pay him. Would you so gleefully cut him a check with a smile?
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
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I'll answer that plumbing question, even though you didn't look at the situation from the "con artists" point of view....for even one second!
I would not gleefully pay that plumber anything until he returned the materials that I bought. I would however move on quickly and rebuy the materials and get another plumber.
Now, stop dodging the real issue and look at things from this guys shoes. He knows your aggravated and he's afraid you'll take his last bits of coke money. He's holding a ten cent set of keys as collateral and your trying to teach him a lesson....a lesson that he's not asked for.
No matter how you rationalize it, you are taking a beating on this one. If you change the locks and bill him, you'll be in much worse position. Sure, it will make you feel better but you are forgetting one thing: this guys morals are much lower than yours, I'm assumming. So, when you beat him up for the 180 and "win", he might just decide that a pound of sugar in your gas tank might be good retribution. Or, a lot of worse things could happen.
You may not realize it, but you are not making a good business decision. I see you as the school yard kid, taking his stand, knowing that the teacher is coming to issue you both a detention. Sure, you show your bravery, but all the other kids just think your stupid.
There is another lesson in How To Win Friends and Influence People that you are missing: "If you win an argument, you lose!"
You are losing...whether you see it or not.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
The only problem with what you said is that some do business that is not legit . Up to snuff legal.
There are other ways around the bush to take a leak on it .
You prefer to be legit and thats why I love ya .
I prefer to win and keep winning. If I operated 100 percent legit , Id lose lots of money. If I have to pay a court , somtimes its a good gamble . Theres nothing wrong with moonshine except the law frowns on it . Just becuse the law frowns on it does not make it wrong to me . Getting caught does.
Back in my younger days I liked to eat 100lb deer. Most of them are not legal to kill. They happen to be the best of White Tails. Id rather kill one 100 lb deer and let them keep their [2] 225 lb legal deer for breeding .
They still ban hunting with dogs out of season. I think they are talking about gun hunting . Its still a ticket to run a dog out of season without a gun but dont you think they had guns on their mind? They dont change it so Im sure someone has brought it to their attention. Still yet there is no leash law in the country . If a dog runs a cow the dog can be legally killed by the property owner but nothing to the owner of the dog . Why dont they charge the animal owner ? If a cow gets onto the hiway and someone runs over it they do look for the owner to charge him. No one ever owns those cows.
Its supposed to be the law to carry liablility insurance in my state . The only ones that hit me are the ones who dont have it and dont pay me when they do it . The law does dot force them to pay me or at least they havent yet . So what good is it ?
If I gave the tennant the time the law allows they could legally stay indefinately if they knew how to do it . If they never answered the door to the server the police would never step foot inside . Until they have been served by due process they cannot be evicted. They will never be made to pay me my rents. With that said , what is it gonna gain me to teach them the law on this subject ? I know the law and most of the time they dont on this subject. When they get served it tells them the law and they normally stay to the extent of time they can.
Under the law , Im exempt from using any type of self evicition. Such as noted cutting power heads and water meters etc. Front doors being removed is out or discontinuing any type of service knowingly. Forceful evcition is illegal. Removing their property is illegal. Whupping their butt is also illegal. <G> Showing up at their place of work is illegal. Not paying rent is not illegal.
Tim
I doubt there is one of us who opperates 100% legally. We couldn't afford the lawyers to tell us what is legal in every instance.That is part of my points to Pete. If he is going to lock horns in a legal battle instead of keeping it simple and practical like Mike point out, then he will lose big time money - even if he wins
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I hope you don't bother to call the law when someone works your system against you .
Say something simple like an armed robbery .
percentages
Know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em?...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Sam, That's a pretty caustic response given Pete's done nothing wrong, By the way... could you explain the meaning of your tagline???
Geoff
Thats awful harsh being this pete is asking for advice
what are you worried about...if the truck disappears or the load is stolen he will be suspect number 1. you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. the dude just wants his money.
i am curious why you operate your business without capital? i recently had the owner/ceo of one of my customers bagging me to extend him terms to match those of his largest customer...about 75 days at the longest. He was told in no uncertain terms that he should either address this with his customer or reconfigure his credit terms with his bank. My company had no intentions of financing his business.
Why do you expect your employees to finance your business?
Edited 3/16/2007 11:04 pm ET by mcf
Why not just pay him what you owe and request the keys? If he wants to steal the truck, he will deal with the consequences like any other thief. Both you and he know who will be first on the list of suspects.
This situation is essentially no different than any other where you let someone have a set of keys. That person could have a set made and you would not be the wiser.
In other words, the moment you let a set of keys out of your hands, a copy could be made and your security would be compromised.
Pete
Before I took someones money from their paycheck that it was within my rights/or the law to do so.
I understand what your saying but two wrongs never make a right.
Doesnt stop you from trying to bluff the guy though. So far I dont think thats against the law, check your local affiliate!
And then whats to say that he hasnt already had the keys duplicated?
Doug
You know what irks me the most?....
It's that I treated this guys very well, he stiffs me by putting me on hold with driving only to quit and then pulls this crapola.
This is the game that HE wants to play, being a smart guy.... I don't like hassles and would just as well pay him and be done with it but he's really under my skin at this point.
When I finally put together that he wasn't going to drive anymore, I told him that the right thing to do would have been to just tell me in the first place and I also told him I had 3 checks for him to come pick up (he hadn't answered his phone for a few days because was out of town on personal business) and asked him to bring the keys by so i could secure the truck. He replied that he'd just hold the keys until I paid him his last check too. Pretty much ticked me off.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Since it's totally possible that he has had copies made, have it re-keyed and use it, but tell him that he has two options- first is to bring the keys back and he gets payed, less the re-key cost. Second option- you call the cops and have him arrested, no pay and he gets docked a day's pay for every day he wastes. I wouldn't trust this guy any farther than I could throw the Earth.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
What RW said. Get tough.
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"We have enough youth, how about a fountain of smart?"
I don't know aboput trucking, but in this state for construction work the law is pay when due - not pay when paid.
I don't agree with all my state laws - maybe disagree with more than half of them, butthis one is righteous.
I can't say that I blame the guy.
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Well then, pay when due is the same as pay when paid in this case because that is the agreement as we had it from the start.
All of his pay was received and redistributed in less than 2 weeks except this one haul. He knew before accepting the load that it was 30 days with this company.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
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i'd change the locks,you have a investment in a truck that can't be secured,spend the 200.00 and deduct it from his pay. when renters don't return keys,i hire a locksmith to open house up. they get charged for him and new locks.
if you really think this guy is a problem,i would just write it off and get the truck rolling and making 1500 a WEEK. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Why not just give him the $295, get your keys and be done...sounds like you'll be reimbursed in a couple of weeks...no?
I'm thinking the lock change and associated ill will and BS with deducting from his due would be more hassle than it's worth. I'm all for standing on principle, but you want this out of your hair, so you can get on and so can he.
Ya gotta ask yourself what it's worth to you to enforce the original agreement when it sounds like you could make the problem go away by loaning yourself $300.
PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Eggzactly!Practcal is as practical does, Forrest! I wouldn't waste two dollars worth of time worrying over it.
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I agree. Pay him the $295 and get the keys at the same time. Simple.
Pete,
<At this point, should I just have the locks changed and deduct it from his pay? >
absolutly yes, but check that you can in fact legally deduct it from his pay. First, you might want to send a letter(registered mail, so you get a receipt) threatening that the cost of the re-keying will be deducted and see if he returns the keys.
<Should I trust that he will return the keys and not have made a copy?>
No way! he's set the tone by not returning the keys, you risk far more damage by assuming he didn't make a copy than assuming he did. Then get to work on a company policy about just such issues.
I think it *ucks that you have to do this, but I would think(hope) this guy is the exception rather than the rule.
As for the "civil matter" ,I would think retaining property (the keys) that you have no right to keep, could be construed as THEFT, which is not a civil matter , but a criminal one! I think you need some good legal advice on this point, for future refence, as well as for crafting a company policy.
keep us posted on this, good luck!
Geoff
Do you have a fenced yard? or a club like deal on the steering wheel??
I have neither. This is a good-sized truck too. see the pic...
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
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Pete,I know you a long time and I don’t believe that you let a $150.00 solution go on for this long. The first day he didn’t return the keys the locks would have been chanced, and then he and his lawyer could have chased me for his money.
Yeah, that and the fact that I let him string me along for 2 weeks of no driving (which costs me money) because I didn't want to screw him and just hire in a new guy because he had some personal matters to take care of.
You're right, I should have just gotten down to brass tacks immediately.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
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>>>>>>>>>I should have just gotten down to brass tacks immediately.Don't beat yourself up about that. I always assume everbody else will do the right thing eventually. And they usually do.http://logancustomcopper.com
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"We have enough youth, how about a fountain of smart?"
Just pay the guy and let it go. If it makes you feel better change the locks (or get a steering wheel lock)
I have apartments I rent out and I've walked away from much more than this. It's not worth your time and hassle. Forgetaboutit.
"I have apartments I rent out and I've walked away from much more than this. It's not worth your time and hassle. Forgetaboutit."
Exactly what I was thinking .
He should try getting took by a tenant for 5 grand and get a judgement only to find out they cant get blood out of as turnip. I lost around 8 grand last year if I include labor. Most of it is 1500 here and 500 there but its never real cheap. We just have to move on. Ive bought new locks and re keyed the locks on more rentals than I can count .
Tim
Yeah, I own apartments as well. I had a girl over the wintyer that paid no rent for 3 months and I let her stay anyhow because she had 2 little kids. She decided to skip out anyhow, messed up a lot of stuff upon leaving, never notified me and because I didn't know the place was left empty, didn't secure it better and crackheads broke in and stole all the copper plumbing.
Believe me, with this and other incidents, I know plenty about taking losses in business.... but this driver and I had an agreement befoire he started. I have held up my end through and through. I don't see that I am wrong and feel that the jerk has stuck me, if anything.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
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me, I would find a locksmith to rekey it for $395, and get on with life. when he ask for money, give him the bill
seems to me you would rather complain and are looking for people to rub your back. like everyone is saying...
IF THE TRUCK IS THAT IMPORTANT, REKEY THE DAMN THING AND START MAKING MONEY. you are letting him get the better of you.
Pete, I know you only from such posts of yours as I've read which means effectively not at all. But, you always struck me as the kind of guy that while he might be mightily pissed off, would be above jerking around over 300 bucks. I've been screwed for that much and more at times in my life where I was literally hoping a friend would invite me to dinner because I was down to the spare change in my ashtray. Time to move on, change the locks and be done with it. At least in CT, you cannot under any circumstances make a deduction from an employee's paycheck. If he owes you money, you must take it to court. Nor can you hold his pay, for any reason, for longer than 10 days after the last day worked. The fines if an employee files a grievance are a lot more than the 300 bucks in question. Believe me, I've had my knuckles rapped by the labor dept.
Listen, you're bigger than a couple hundred bucks, change the locks, pay the guy and let karma take care of the rest... is it really worth all this BS? Just my two cents.
PaulB
But he was not an employee.He was a sub-contractor..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I think Sam's post says it all Bill. Besides which, the point I was really trying to make is... is a couple hundred bucks worth all this?
Pay the man!!!
regardless of the previous deals, he quit working give him his $
If it's your truck you wait for the money
Pay the man!!
NAIL IT !!!
Change locks and deduct whether its legal or not. Who says that he checked with an attorney? him? Not only that, bill him for loss of use and let him file for the 295 in small claims because a lawyer won't touch it. Same as a lien. Once the word lien comes out of someones mouth, I will make them file, because then I will not pay.
just go over his house and beat the hell out of him, that get his attention.
I sure do miss the good old days... lol.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
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But the driver doesn't have to pay for his team of lawyers. Various government agencies will provide them for free.
Here's the way it works in California, one can safely assume that Ohio is somewhat similar.
First, the IRS rule that Pete's drivers are employees and Pete owes SS and income taxes on all drivers for the last umptysquat years, plus some major monetary penalties for tax fraud.
Then the state wants their cut for all that, plus penalties
Then, the Labor board rules that Pete owes all employees for the last umptysquat years back pay for the time periods between employment termination and date of final paycheck. Yeah, the boss has to pay the guy for the time after he quit. Plus penalties.
Finally, the WC dept wants their piece of Pete's hide plus penalties. And PRAY that nobody can possible claim any injuries because they will call and interview all employees on record.
Pete is in the position of a parakeet picking a fight with a Liger over a worm. The gubbmint just loves to go after employers, especially when the employer is, or was, a politician.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
""The gubbmint just loves to go after employers, especially when the employer is, or was, a politician."" Not to even mention the local news organizations... who needs lawyers, the bad press can make the $300.00 look like bird droppings compared to what can be lost thru bad exposure.
One good phone call to the right person is all it takes.
pete.. nobody is trying to claim that you ain't stubborn.. you are !
what you are missing is that in labor law.. you are out to lunchyou had an agreement..
so what .. it ain't worth nothing .. it's an illegal agreementyou are letting this $300 dispute endanger your businessget over itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I'm not worried about the 300 at all. I want my keys back and the smartazz wants to hold them hostage.
he will be paid in accordance with the terms of our agreement.... on time.
The amount owed or how well I did or did not treat him is irrelevant.
His refusal to return keys means that I have to make a decision of whether my truck is secure. If his actions are causing said lack of security then is it appropriate to charge him for for cahnging the locks?
If you hired me as a sub with the agreement that I would be paid 30 days from invoice and gave me the keys to your project (these keys being essential to the security of your equipment and the cunstomer's belongings) and I decided after performing a portion of the work that I wasn't interested in continuing our business relationship and just walked away.... and I decided that I would keep the keys until my payment came in. How would you handle it?
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
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was the guy an employee or a contractor? was he on your books or does he submit an invoice to be paid?
you have wasted more than $300 of your time pissing and moaning on this board about a non-skilled laborer. you are being stubborn just for the sake of being stubborn.
stop being irrational. every response on this thread has offered the same advice. change the locks and move on.
otherwise you are here arguing for the sake of arguing.
Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
I waste plenty of my time here regardless... lol
He is a contractor and does submit an invoice for payment per job.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
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well...then it sounds like you are in the middle of a full scale pissing match.
Sounds to me as though it's Bill or Hillary's fault....he just can't let go....
"I don't care if the business is all mucked up and running at idle.......he agreed to......"
There are times when you just can't have it ALL....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
<<<<If you hired me as a sub with the agreement that I would be paid 30 days from invoice and gave me the keys to your project (these keys being essential to the security of your equipment and the cunstomer's belongings) and I decided after performing a portion of the work that I wasn't interested in continuing our business relationship and just walked away.... and I decided that I would keep the keys until my payment came in. How would you handle it? >>>>
what . do you think this hasn't happened to me in the past ?
happens all the time
to lot's of peoplei would think the minimum thing that would happen is he'd file a complaint with the labor board....
maybe you'd " WIN"...
but what a lot of nonsense..
look.
..... you ARE going to pay him $300
you would like to get your keys back....
you may get reimbursed for the $100 of fueltotal upside to you ......$200 ( 300 - 100 )
total downside to you is pretty much limitless..
time responding to Labor Board
money to hire a lawyer if he decides to sue you
potential finding against you .. with repercussions from IRS, State IRS, Labor Board.. Insurance Company
time attending a Labor Board hearingbest case outcome...... $200 - < all of the above >before i get involved in a situation like that .. i'm going to make sure it's worth my whileand i have been involved.. and won.. but i was on a lot firmer ground that your caseyou're out on a limb sawing it off behind you ..... for what ?
for what ?
i told you how to make the swap.... just do it and get on with your business
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
>you are being stubborn just for the sake of being stubbornHe's just getting warmed up. Ever watch him talk politics? And I do mean "talk" be/c he sure don't do much listening! Ha ha ha.
Mike, our agreement is legal. Although he uses my truck, he is paid a flat rate per mile for his service. He decides on the method of how he will effect the pickup and delivery of goods. He covers the expenses of performing his work. He assumes the risk of potential loss as well as profit. he is a legal subcontractor according to the IRS.
You might think of it as a cab driver that uses the vehicle, advertising and dispatch of the cab company. This person pays for his own fuel, risks a loss and decides largely on how to deliver his "cargo". He is a subcontractor even though he uses the assistance of the cab company because that assistance is of benefit to BOTH the driver and the cab company.
I know this facet of the argument is nothing but muddying the water but I've spoken with the IRS prior to making the arrangement under which I hire drivers now and am in accordance with the law.
The simple fact is that the driver refuses to return keys. Legally, the keys have nothing to do with anything else. His refusal to return keys is independent of any financial agreement.
I cannot take a tenants property because they haven't paid the rent.
I cannot take your materials from a jobsite because you owe me money.
What if your employee kept your truck that you let him use for work because he decided to quit and wants his paycheck immediately?
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Catfish
I was going to comment on your reply but instead decided to read all the other posts.
But the driver doesn't have to pay for his team of lawyers. Various government agencies will provide them for free.
What Sam said! Besides, he said it better then I could have.
You damn well better make sure that you have the right to deduct money from a mans paycheck before doing so because the labor relations dont require you(in this case the driver)to go out and get your own lawyer, they have plenty of them at their disposal.
I know guy that had to fire two people a few months ago - falsifing time cards was the straw that broke the camels back. Bossman still paid them for the "false" time because he had to. He knows that he would have gotten in trouble for deducting money from their checks.
I know what you mean and maybe under the circumstances I'd feel the same way as Pete does but as I said in the first post to him, "Two wrongs never make a right", just because Pete was wronged does that mean he should go out and exact his revenge?
Pete, I feel for ya, one of many reasons I dont want to be a boss!
Doug
That guy is a contract driver. I know GC's (some, not all) will give you a long list of things they have deducted from subs to beat them out of money. The man can't safely use his truck and someone needs to pay. If 295 is all you can get, so get it. 99% of these guys just want to be a problem. Don't ever try me by holding anything that is rightfully mine. I will be by to pick it up.
Did you fire him or did he quit?
Pay him.
Did he jump or was he pushed?Pete's still right in this case, IMHO.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
"We have enough youth, how about a fountain of smart?"
He told me he had some personal matter he had to tend to and then after a week of this and some days of his not returning my calls... when I finally got ahold of him, he said that it wasn't what he wanted to do.
He left me hanging for awhile and then quit.
He gets paid per our agreement, which I have kept very well.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete: For your own peace of mind, change the locks.When the money shows up, mail him his check.Don't stoop to his level...Brooks
Sounds like substance abuse.
Pay the guy the 295.
Change the locks on your own dime.
Learn the lesson, whatever it is. Move on. Put that truck to work. You lost more today thinking about it.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
If a client doesn't pay, who goes to collect? If the contracts are with you, then I am assuming you do. So he is still reliant on you for a paycheck, not just your client. If he is taking on that responsibility and risk, as well as paying fuel and tolls, then he is probably wondering why he doesn't just rent a Penske and work for himself.
He already knows your clients and presumably has an idea of your pricing. If you ever need to coax a client back from him, you won't want to explain this. It would be better to respond that you payed him earlier than agreed. Better Cut your losses and take the high road. $180 is much better than a lost client and potential legal fees for withholding paycheck. The keys are a moot point - without changing locks you aren't going to sleep at night even if you had them.
If you are asked for a referral, just confirm he worked for you two weeks. That should say all. It's a small world - you want to look as good as you can when this comes back around.
I suppose he could easily compete with me.
All he needs is 4-6k for the first year's insurance, registration with the federal government, registration and payment to the Public Utilities Commmsision of every state that he plans to operate in, special filings with NY, KY and NM, Registration for IFTA taxes (extra tax on fuel to be paid quarterly) and not to mention you must pay for and aquire all of this stuff before you even request approval from the feds to operate... and they might turn you down.
He'll also need a newer model truck as most companies won't allow you to haul freight in an older truck (reliability concerns)... that should only cost him about 1400-1600 per month from penske, plus they charge an additional amount per mile.
Why does everyone assume that being in business is so glorious and easy?
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
You're right - my apologies. I fully agree that going into business isn't cheap - I tried a bit too hard to get into his head at the expense of realism. I am not self-employed, but have been in interviews for where it was obvious they just wanted a client list (I passed) and spend a lot of time keeping our clients happy. The main reason I'm not self-employed is that I don't have the finances or guts to get started - I'd rather someone else take the risk and promise me a steady paycheck to raise my family, even if I sacrifice some flexibility and profit. Someday I'd like to do try some property investing on the side, but for now you're right - it's not glorious and easy enough for me! I admire those who can pull it off. Perhaps when the kids are older I'll make a go at it.
I just wanted to bring up the point that you don't want your clients involved in the dispute if he goes around badmouthing.
Edited 3/17/2007 5:35 am ET by NatW
pete, pete, pete.. life is short..
you hold all the cards...
here is what i would do..
i would call him up and ask to meet him.... tell him you will bring a check for the full amount ( ($395 )
you will have him endorse it and cash it on the spot.. he will give you the keys and the $100..
then shake hands and wish him well
now that is what i would do at this point in time...
what i would have done before it came to all of this is, as soon as he told me he was done.. i would have asked for my keys back and paid him on the spot
.. same deal.. check for the full amount.. endorse it to you .. cash it and ask for your $100 in fuel back.. if he doesn't want to give you your $100.... i'd write it off
remember , you hold all the cards.. but the idea is to win.. win your peace of mind .. why do you want a disgruntled ex-employee walking around out there thinking he got screwed by you
it's your company ... not his....
when the employment stops you have to pony up... it's YOU who has to wait to collect from the customer.. not him..
your agreement ended when he quitMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Nat, regarding your other Q...
If a client does not pay within 45 days, I will make good the payment to my driver.... that is part of our agreement too.
I also know, from being in this business for awhile now, that most companies pay on time and in less than 2 weeks. The occassional company pays 30 days and rarely one will string you along further.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete,
Just read the whole thread. A "Fish or Bait"
Seems you are holding yourself hostage out of fear.
You can rekey and be on the road, or you can just go for it and be on the road now with a out rekey.
If he messes with the truck after the work agreement was terminated that WILL be a criminal matter, no question at all.
My recomendation..hire the new guy and get it on the road now, skip the rekey, drive it as is.
Now as for paying, I am not sure I understand correctly.
You stated that he paid fuel and expenses(tolls) out of pocket and then that money was included in his payment. If I read this right that could mean that if he hands you the keys now he is "out of pocket money" to you for his expenses. If that is the case and I were him there is no way you would be getting the keys until I was payed.
His fear is that he gives up the keys and you don't pay for some bogus reason and he is out his expense money. Look at what his fear is : he gives you the keys what prevents you from stiffing him and forcing him to hire lawyers etc (which at $300.00 ) ain't gonna happen , so it would be small claims court and time for him to collect.
Why let the situation hold you hostage?
You could have earned more than the amount in question by hiring the new driver and start making money with the asset instead of holding it hostage over some fear.
Yes he is , or has rather, behaved badly , but you don't have to get in the mud with him .
Hell if You need the $300 that bad , (actually less if you take out the personal loan to him ) there are bigger problems than this in your world.
Whats the tag Line here at BT... Get over it the anger is ..."
Edited 3/16/2007 9:34 pm by dovetail97128
I suppose I could just assume the best on him and get the keys back when he gets his last check... if he does something stupid, after the fact, then that is a criminal matter.... assuming I can prove it was him.
Of course, damage to my cargo will cause my Truck and cargo insurance (currently over 4k per year)to skyrocket.... and yes, I currently get the good boy rate.
Frankly, the jerk has thrown a few wrenches in my works.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Hey Pete,
Around here a driver is paid by the mile/km, by the hour, or by salary. Paying a driver when you get paid isn't right. The driver should be paid on a regularily scheduled pay period. In this way, any feelings of distrust will be eliminated.
In the mean time, pay this guy what you owe him, have the truck re-keyed, and eat the cost of the re-keying. Deducting the cost of the re-keying from his pay will only p#ss him off and could create further problems.
Eat the cost and learn from the experience. It might not seem right, but it sure is simpler and easier in the long run.
Dave
i have been there where im 100 percent right but just payed out to put it behind me, if i let someone go i want them gone, cant say what to do im not you but your not alone, I would want this guy outta my life
I'm with Smith on this. Meet up and have an even exchange. I am also of the opinion that it's a crappy deal for the driver to not be paid until you get paid. He's not the owner, so why should he take any of the risk of collections? Someone else asked, what if the client doesn't pay?
How many contractors have a crew that accepts no pay until the client pays? Nah, if I'm an employee, then I get paid a predictable amt on a regular schedule. That's the price to the owner for having to put up with their ####.
I answered earlier that the agreement is that if pay is not received within 45 days, I take the loss and render payment.
I don't get the hang up on payments occassionally taking 30 days.
This is not a guy earning a pittance. He earns decent money and ther is no risk other than it may occassionally take 45 days on a slow pay. He does not need special licensing to work for me. He earns 40 cents per mile AFTER fuel and tolls... that is more than some CDL big rig truckers that I've met.
I've waited a lot longer for a lot more.
Also, just to keep him rolling, I've booked loads where my earnings were the pittance (less than $100) while he took in 651 once and 302 another time. I don't have to do this but I do it becuse I don't want to leave him in bad spot. I could have waited an extra day to catch a sweeter deal for me, after all, he is guaranteed a minimum earning per mile.
The wife picked up a movie, so we're off to go watch it..... I'll let you all now how it was afterwards... it is called "departed" I think.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
>I don't get the hang up on payments occassionally taking 30 daysYou're making an employee carry your accounts receivables. That's a crappy deal for the employee. I've never made a salaried or hourly employee carry my receivables. If he's a salesperson and responsible for the account, then sure, but not if he's the hired hand. Doesn't matter how generous you think you are with job assignments or pay...this is a separate issue.
Here is what you and others don't seem to be getting:
HE WAS HIRED WITH THESE UNDERSTANDINGS.
and YES, it DOES matter that he is paid more because he must operate under certain conditions... that IS the idea.
I used to operate where I would pay for all gas and tolls and give drivers money before each trip to cover expenses and they too often abused that benefit or were careless in ways that increased my costs to do business.
So, I decided to pay MORE for drivers that would cover their own costs, with these new drivers fully understanding that this IS the deal.
HE WAS MADE FULLY AWARE OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES BEFORE HE APPLIED AND THEN THAT WAS REITTERATED WHILE HE APPLIED!
I have kept up my end of the bargain. HE has not.
90% of his pay was given to him WITHIN 2 weeks of his deliveries. 10% of his pay will be paid within 30 days.
and.... HE CHOSE TO QUIT.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
What Cloud, Dovetail, PeterJ and Mike Smith said.
You're wasting so much time and energy to be Right it's amazing. You want the biz and your drivers to wait and take the collection risk. When you have a business someone has to ultimately make the sacrifice. Usually the business owner.
When you hire employees you have to anticipate the occassional problem. That's part of the risk and why you have to do what's best for the business. In this case that would be to keep your equipment earning money. Planes and rental cars don't make money sitting still.
What's it worth ? If the business is that good why not write off the $395.00, change the locks yourself and get on with it. Structure things so this won't happen again. Consider it a lesson learned and quit dragging it out. It's not a political thread, it's your livelihood....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
>Here is what you and others don't seem to be getting:C'mon man, read instead of getting defensive. I got that. I just don't happen to agree that it's a good policy. I think it's a crappy deal for any driver you hire from here on out to be carrying your receivables. Good deal for you. Crappy deal for them.
I saw that movie a couple of days ago. Liked ok but Jack Nicholson really hammed it up. I thought his character was too goofy.
i saw that movie last night but could not keep up on the plot line
As an aside, I own a freight truck. We hire drivers to drive and pay them piece work or sub contractor rates. They earn "X" per mile.
I recently hired a new guy that drove for 2 weeks. He decided that it wasn't what he wanted to do. However, he strung us along for 1 more week without telling us that he didn't want to drive anymore, long story short.
Payment for his work is made as payment is received in our office from the various clients we haul freight for. Payments are typically received and redistributed within 2 weeks of the load being delivered, however occasionally we must wait 30 days or so.
At any rate, this driver is still owed for one job, $295.00. We have so far paid him just under $3000 for his other work. He refuses to return his keys and therefore I cannot operate the truck while being certain of my ability to secure the truck and its cargo. (I have spare keys but have to worry about the set he has too).
I discussed the matter with my local Police and they tell me this is a civil matter.
I've never had this problem before and I've been more generous with this last driver than with others. He has no reason to believe he wouldn't be paid and the only one that has been dishonest in this endeavor has been him.
Anyhow, I was hoping that someone here might have some advice from a similar situation.
At this point, should I just have the locks changed and deduct it from his pay? Should I trust that he will return the keys and not have made a copy?
I'm here to help.
Wow - yopu have the same problem as Pete!Pay the guy and get your keys back and quit whining and worrying. Get on with your life. There's a lot of spelling to be checked.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
How old is the guy?
You wanna' be right, or you wanna' be happy? Pick one and move on.
The time you've wasted and money you lost, not moving the truck. Pay the guy the amount is small and your account will pay you. Why tie up the truck and go thru all the BS.
Pay the man!You had an agreement... so what? He did some work and then decided to quit. I know that stinks as an employer (you've invested money & effort and now you won't get a return) but them's the breaks.If you were talking about $2,950, that may be worthy of a different response, but I think my answer would still be the same. Your only risk of not getting your $295 is that the client will not pay, and this risk is the same on this haul as on all the other jobs your company does.
Or you can't do it the hard way and follow Brownbagg's advice.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I question both the wisdom and legality of your payment practices.
The "Good Book" is most clear about the moral duty to pay an employee without delay.
As I see it, you are obligated to pay him whether you are paid - or not. He did not choose the customer. He had no choice but to go where you dispatched him.
You own how many trucks? Your business does how much business? And you can't afford to part with $300?
Retaining keys, and owed wages, are two entirely different matters. Keep your end clean - pay him. The ask for the keys. If the keys are still retained, you have a simple theft.
i haveto admit theres some good arguments. I had one fellow leave in the middle of ripping a roof off with rain on the way, I worked my butt of and got it covered, I wanted to pay him so he did not come back to the job but could not find him, turns out he was hideing from me in the hopes of being paid for the whole week, He left on Monday, I called the state and they did tell me he had to be paid in 48 hours or i would have to continue paying him for the week.. I did find him paid him for the day, Turned out he played this game to everyone, He went to work for a pretty rough crew and tryed the same thing, The guy would not pay him and they threatened to beat him up, He did not get a dime from them and in fact was scared, So i guess i did the right thing by paying him but maybe i enabled him to carry on his little game, Or did the next rougher guy do the right thing? He stopped it after that and left town, When we play a morality play theres many endings
Isn't it interesting how relationships go bad.
You hired him and let him drive your truck; he agreed to work for you. For whatever reason, he decided it wasn't working for him. Now he doesn't trust that you will pay him the $300 owed to him, so he's holding the keys. You don't trust that he hasn't made a copy.
I see two ways to go with this:
Make a swap, give him the money, get the keys, get on with life. If anything happens to the truck, he's suspect No 1.
Or
Change the locks, stiff him for the cost, and prepare to have him make your life miserable.
You choose
I have not worked for anyone in 25 years, Seems if i quit a job i would be there giving back all company property, At that time i would expect a check in full, I would have given 2 weeks notice too. But im living in a dream world
Pete
This is what you get for making sure that you hire guys that can spell correctly.
Doug
Aha!
That's who spellchecker is. Pete's exdriver!
LOLSamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
In most states, maybe all of them, if you are an employee, and you quit, you normally have to wait until the regularly scheduled pay date for your check. If you are fired, you have to be paid in ful at the time of your release or within a specified amt of time such as 48 hours.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe I missed it, but do you rekey after every driver? If not, why not? Just because they left on good terms?
Sounds like a great scam to me. Work for awhile, leave with copies of every truck in the fleet.
Wait two years..................
That's a great question and frankly I suppose that I've trusted ever other guy so far. They've all been good guys that just couldn't keep the job for various reasons. Most guys have families and it is a tough gig being away for so much of the time.
This guy is the first that has been a sneaky twerp about it and given me reason to wonder about what other stunts he may try.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete,
I don't understand your logic here. I realize I'm repeating many of the sentiments that have already been said, and I do not know the whole picture of everything this guy may have done.
But I can't blame him either... You're into him for around $300.00... and you're going to pay him no matter what after 45 days right? Is your money so tight you can not afford to pay him until you're paid?
If it were me I would have cut the guy the check the day he decided to quit, taken my key back, and gone on with life. What's your time worth? How much time have you wasted dicking around with this?
I've sure you've heard "pick your battles" is this one really worth the effort you're putting into it?
I guess I do not understand what all the arguing is about just pay the gut drive the truck and if something gets stolen the the cops know who to look for life is to short to worry about all this or is it a WELLS FARGO tuck load of money then let me know where it is and I will guard it for you.
it doent have anything to do with money, the driver wants to be big dog, he wants to screw the man.It would be like somebody buying a ussed car from you and only giving you a couple hundred and then asking for a clear title, before paying the rest.what he needs to do is rekey the truck and send the driver the money left over from the bill. It the same as you losing a company radio. it get deducted from pay
Edited 3/20/2007 6:13 pm by brownbagg
BB
It the same as you losing a company radio. it get deducted from pay
I'm not going to get into what Pete should do, dont care, Petes a big boy and he can do what he deams necessary but I know one thing, you better be careful deducting stuff from peoples pay check that they either damaged or lost - in most places this is not legal to do. Doesnt mean that you cant bluff the guy but to actually do it is another thing.
I dont know the rules on subs and I dont know enough to know if this guy that Pete had was a sub or an employee.
I agree with Mike Smith though, this is one of the best threads in a long time.
Doug
if I dont turn in my radio, my truck, my laptop, my cell. it get deducted from my final pay.friend of mine, drives over the road. His company stole his 401 money, so he kept a rig till they paid back. My friend got seven years.
He claims he's trying to teach the guy a lesson in life.
"When you point your finger, you got three long fingers pointing back at you". Mark Knophler
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
hey, hey, hey.....
not fer nuttin.. my pete is always entertaining...
gotta be one a da best threads of the current yearMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It's like watching a car fire on the highway.
View Image
different ways to aggravate yourself?
ways to let your "principles" get in the way of good ole common sense?
ways to NOT make any money? ie the truck ain't rollin, it ain't making money...
my question is what happens when it's day 45 and "per the agreement" Pete's has to pay him anyway and he still doesn't have the keys?
When we have fired people or had them quit we try to settle up ASAP... Sure the company manual states payday is at 4:30pm every Friday, but if a guy quits on a Tuesday, under good terms or bad, the boss gets the check ready. When I've fired people I ask the boss to have the check ready so when he's fired I can hand him his check, collect our keys and cards and call it good.
Why anyone would want to drag it out is behind me, especially over 300 bucks, principles and points be damned...
Edited 3/20/2007 8:02 pm ET by CAGIV
Totally agree with you Neil. Its quite the opposite way I would treat/teach someone but each to their own I guess.some people pride themselves with their egos and that makes them happy , right or wrong but I've found that it kind of blinds a person of the truth...but thats just me...wadda I know..I'm just a dumb carp : )~
View Image
"When you point your finger, you got three long fingers pointing back at you". Mark Knophler
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
For knowing so much, you sure don't know too much.... and in this case, all you had to do is read.
I've quite a few sets of keys for this truck. It still rolls just fine.
Truth is that I hold all the cards on this one.... but I think I'll be benevolent.
If there is trouble later, I know who to go to.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete,
You're letting your hard headed-ness getting in the way of better judgement.
You've "gotta be right" so bad it clouds your thought process.
That's my opinion..... and the opinion of most people in this thread, so way to go...
For what it's worth I did read the thread, I read all about your policy and all about how you paid him promptly, like that some sort of wonderful thing...
I've kept my end of the deal.... I am, if nothing else, a man of my word. That is a wonderful thing because if more people were that way, we'd be a lot better of as a society.
If I say you'll be paid on Friday, then come hell or high water, you'll be paid on Friday.... maybe earlier.
I have kept every bit of my promise with this guy. Remind me, why does that make me the bad guy?
My only legitimate complaint about this guy keeping the keys is that it poses a seucrity risk to cargo that I am carrying to have an extra set of keys out there. Yeah it aggravates me that he thinks he is clever but that is just reason for me to blow steam.
He refuses to turn them in... so I should replace the locks. his fault, his cost.
Although, honestly, his check is written for the full amount and I'll call him to come get it. Like I said before, if he does something stupid, then I'll take care of that later.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
I swear I'd key his car as a tax for cheesing me off.
Pete you're not a bad guy for sticking with the aggreement, that wasn't my thought.
My thought is you're being silly by not just resolving the situation quickly, pay him off & get the key back.
you're not going to teach him a lesson
Mr. Pete, Its not in me to pass judgement or anything, I figure you will take care of your own buisness as It seems your successful and doing a good job so far,,But what kind of cargo do you haul? and is that the only truck you have ? been readin and just wondering, Dw
Yeah, I called the little cheeser and told him to bring the keys by and get his check.... I even chatted with him a little... I was nice.
I've long cooled down and regardless of his antics, I still liked the guy.
My best friend gave me the realtively same advice as others here. Give him the check, get the keys, call it a day. Mind you, my friend is about the biggest AH I know and one mean sob.... but, as we've gotten older and have more to worry about, we realize that solving things the "old way" gets you nothing but trouble.
Sometimes I really do wish I could be more like you "beta males". I admit that it's just not my nature but I've definitely gotten better.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete,
I can be one of the biggest AH you've ever met, ask some of my guys, but it's not worth it most of the time. When dealing with someone like I'm the one that ends up all pissed off at the end, not them, so it's not worth my time or energy. Bigger fish to fry and all that.
Last time I got all macho and hot headed was with an electriain that I in no un-certain terms told to pack up and he bettr be off my job by time I got there. I ended up in a bad mood and pissed off about it for a few days... Do I or you really need the additional stress?
hey, who you callin a beta male ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm addressing all of those that are in such a tissy over my apparent macho, blowhard, egotistical ways. They are the ones that I would assume are betas because they take such exemption to alpha characteristics.
I'm not saying that being a Beta is bad. Matter-of-fact, I wish I were more beta-like. Life would be so much easier if I could be so much more passive and accepting.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
well.. there is the AA prayer.....
"""
"God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change,courage to change the things we can,and wisdom to know the difference."
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yo;u have it wrong.Lord, Grant me the serenity to
accept the things I cannot change,
Courage, to change the things I can, and
Wisdom to hide the bodies of those people
I had to kill because they pissed me off..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
what , me worry ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
cmon pete, let me get mid evil on his azz. the boys need a new play toy. we can give him a week full of hurt.
I love that expression: "I'll put a hurt on you".
Gets great results with those who are weaker than me.
"I'm not saying that being a Beta is bad. Matter-of-fact, I wish I were more beta-like. Life would be so much easier if I could be so much more passive and accepting."
There you go, see, it feel better already! I didn't think you had it in you to see that your own advantage, in this situation, is not tied to breaking this guy.
As far as Beta goes (never heard of a Beta male but knew exactly what you meant), it's not so much about being passive. It's about managing the business relationship/situation in such a way that hackles do not get raised, and you get a win-win outcome from it. It's about reading people and listening to your gut instincts.
It's also about what I call constructive confrontation.
Example:
Just this week I got jerked around by a new client who ended up renting another's house. I know who owns the other house -ironically, this owner had come to me for free advice 2 months ago.
Anyhow, I stayed calm and professional even though I got two-timed and wasted much time vetting this prospect. My instinct was to tell him to f'off. My business sense was stronger - I knew that acting out my feelings would not gain me a thing.
So I simply told the guy who let me down that I understood his looking at the whole market - a perfectly reasonable thing to do - but would have appreciated knowing that he was still looking at another place even though he'd verbally agreed to take my place. (this is long distance and email negotiations, so it is impossible to get things signed right away). Told him that I had stopped showing the house as soon as he'd emailed his ok.
Today, this man's new landlord approaches me, all apologetic about 'stealing' my tenant. I say: hey, no hard feelings, I knew that was a possibility when I gave you those tips a couple months ago. Can I see the house you're renting this guy, he says yours is a bit bigger and in a better location? Sure.
So we drive over, and look it over.
When I walked away an hour and half later, I was the owner's new property manager. A nice house added to my stable. Plus I get to be my prospect's de-facto landlord. ;) Glad I treated him with respect. I will also be paid to prepare the tenancy agreement. I also have a couple day's repairs work to do there.
It's a beautiful small hipped roof house, in good structural condition, with at least $50,000 worth of interior renovations in the hopper. On a double lot that can have another home built on it.... And the owner is comfortable with my biz style, and I with his style.
That's what happens more often than not when a businessman keeps his cool and takes a long view of things.
Pete, I'm glad you've allowed yourself to discover you Beta side. ;)
If this is the way you talk and think about people you like, and your 'friends', then I'm glad not to be one of them. I use the term "friend" to mean a friend of mine, and that means I don't refer to them as AHs.
You're really caught up in this big man thing, so much so that you insult people who disagree with you, and refer to people as "beta males". That's an interesting complex you have going on there.
This thread has been great entertainment, 'my friend', please keep it going. The more I read, the more I understand why he didn't return the keys. Maybe he just wanted to be a 'friend'.
Hey, when you're this good, everybody wants a piece of you. Or not.
I'm glad you're not one of my friends too. There, are you happier now?
You cry too much anyhow. BUT... you raise an interesting point. There are obviously different kinds of beta males. The kind like you that is somehow threatened by alpha males and then there is the kind of beta that is happy with being a beta and doesn't cry about what the other boys do. There are also the betas who might be related to the first set that want to pretend they are Alphas but will never be. They are true Betas but embarrassed by it.
Alphas seem more the same except for the difference between experience. I'd say that a guy like Mike Smith is an Alpha male that has learned how futile strongheadedness is. Then there are alphas like me that realize what Mike realizes but still fight accepting it too readily... then, of course, there are the Alphas that too bullheaded for their own good but they are typically youngsters who just haven't learned their lessons yet. Those seem to be the 3 distinct stages of Alpha.
I don't know why you are threatened by your beta-ness. It is not a bad thing. Many of histories best minds were betas. Einstein was very much a Beta and one of histories most brilliant and interesting figures.
Embrace your beta-ness.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
heh, heh, heh....... i'm just a gamma-male playing alpha on the internet
i learned about skiinny guys trying to be alpha back in high school.... figgered this ain't workin too well....
and you !... you're just trying to out-alpha LisaMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I thought I read somewhere that the true alpha in a pack was always female. Hmm..............
They won't sell you a gun if you are crying.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
Ooooh, I was going to say that, but you're right...Never, never mess with an alpha female....:)
I thought that's the way I read it.
They won't sell you a gun if you are crying.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
We have friends here who do dog rescue...They live on 5 acres, and have two dogs, one male and one female...The alpha female almost killed the male dog...The dog trainer and handler told her that female alphas are very hard to train...She is still trying and has to keep them apart now...
female alphas are very hard to train.that typical, some females you just cant tell anything to.
My dear Carole... they are ALL alpha females.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
My dear Pete, no they are not...It just takes a good alpha male to tame his female...
Men taming their women? I'm glad ytou said it because if I had.... well you can imagine the utrage that would have generated. LOL.
So what is the prefered method? Backhanding or open palm? <G,D& R>
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
So what is the prefered method? Backhanding or open palm?
Ow it hurts to laugh that hard!"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Yeah, that was a good one.
BTW, my wife prefers using a closed fist on me. and she's so skinny it's like being stabbed with a pool cue.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Neither...If you don't know the secret, then I ain't telling...It's really quite easy...
Hmm, wasn't there a song some time back about ".... hands"
;-)
Let's not go there....:)
;-)Rebeccah
personaly... i would never screw with pete... Lisa would clean my clockMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOL!!! I just told Lisa about this thread... and then I flinched waiting for her response!
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
And I thought she was a sweet girl all this time...now i find out that she's the enforcer mother trucker;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah man... I'm the nice one.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
I can't believe I've sat here and read this whole thread.
Pete's good. Pete's bad.
Frankly, I'm amazed this thread has gone on this long.
On the other hand, I did bet you at golf on only one hours sleep.
So maybe my judgement isn't that great, either.
<G>
I like how he presents the story to the group then calls anyone that doesn't pat him on the back an idiot. Hitler had debates amongst his peers like that. They all wound up dead, and he got himself cornerd in a bunker and had to put one in his brain.
They won't sell you a gun if you are crying.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
That's what's amusing me about this thread.
Pete asks everyone's advise, then gets all bent out of shape when he gets advise he doesn't like.
Why bother asking someone's opinion when you're just gonna ignore it?
But it has been entertaining.
Gotta get ready to go play some golf now. I have a 3-day golf weekend down by Atlantic City. Maybe I'll even hit the casinos.
Drink a gallon of German beer hours befroe you go.
They won't sell you a gun if you are crying.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
something I find funny about this thread is how so many folks keep at Pete for his wanting his keys back. Don't see much difference between what he's doing and what they're doing.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
What I find most amusing are those that decided to forgo normal conversation and jump right to hurling digs and insults at me.
Then they cry like little girls when they are offended by my replies to them. LOL.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
What I find most amusing are those that decided to forgo normal conversation and jump right to hurling digs and insults at me.
Pete, as an Alpha you should be used to that, there just jealous, dont let it bother ya!
BTW, Taunton should put this thread on their cover page, this'll get more new readers then any of those silly threads on building practices.
Doug
Edited 3/23/2007 9:58 am ET by DougU
I'm not bothered at all. I'm very used to it. Haven't you read my tagline?
I have to admit that it's a little fun sometimes to play with the betas and watch them implode.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete
Don't take this the wrong way buy I see your tag as borderline arrogant. Not that arrogance is all bad, quite the opposite.
In this thread and one other one that you're involved in you mention, or actually talk down to people that work for someone as though they're less then you, or somehow not quit up to a self employed man, sorta taking the easy way out. I find that interesting as well. I even called you out on it - your reply was a bit condescending but that's you, I'm cool with that.
I'm often told that I'm an arrogant SOB, that never really bothers me, I'm very confident about what I do/know and maybe I project that - I don't wear a shirt proclaiming it though. <G> ON the other hand I've been involved in full contact martial arts for 25 years, I've competed and at those events I've been known to play some mind games - its not beneath me to say/do things that elicit outrage/reactions, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but I have fun with it. AND maybe that's what your doing - if so, my hats off to you!
Your comments on alphas, betas...........is funny to me, I don't believe all that crap, I think that people act out "alphaness" because they so want to be an alpha that they'll do what it takes to be one.
Whenever someone proclaims to me that they are an alpha male I chuckle - it really should be more obvious.
Doug
Honestly, I see most of the talk here as being in fun. Some guys are so sensitive or insecure though, that they take great offence from the most minor of comments.
My tagline only reflects the common practice of certain posters here to disagree with me and pile on with insults in many threads in which I partake.
Some others here are just whiners.
If I had posted the bit about my martial arts experience and the tournaments in which I had competed... I'd be accused of being a braggard, insecure macho man and myriad other such insults. BUT because you are on the opposite side of me on this issue, you will hear nary a peep about your "boastfullness".
While that nancy-type behavior doesn't really bug me, it does become tiresome... especially in some of the otherwise lighthearted threads. I'll admit that sometimes it is entertaining to throw a few stones back.
I suppose that such is the life of greatness... I wouldn't have it any other way.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
If I had posted the bit about my martial arts experience and the tournaments in which I had competed...
NO, I dont think it would be taken as boasting, now if you said that you went on to win them all maybe so but.......... It was to illistrate the "mind games" that one plays when playing. Ali for my money was the greatest, bar none. Not really sure he was the best fighter/tactician but because he knew how to play the mind game better then others. there's not a whole lot a difference between the best football team and the worst, but whos mind is "there" Just look at what Lombardi did with a bunch of also rans. Hell, he could of made Cleveland a winner! I dont believe that I was boasting, hell there are many people on here that are involed with similar things and are never considered "boasting" when refering to them. Your confabulating things to prop your position.
BUT because you are on the opposite side of me on this issue, you will hear nary a peep about your "boastfullness".
where'd you pull that sh!d from? You need to go back and re-read the whole thread, please find where I disagree with you on this, dont believe that you can. I'm guessing you wont go back and re-read so heres what I said;
Pete
Before I took someones money from their paycheck that it was within my rights/or the law to do so.
I understand what your saying but two wrongs never make a right.
Doesnt stop you from trying to bluff the guy though. So far I dont think thats against the law, check your local affiliate!
And then whats to say that he hasnt already had the keys duplicated?
Doug
I made a few more comments but none directly towards you on this matter. My first two paragraphs pretty much sum up my feelings on this. I dont know the laws of Ohio, thats your job, not mine.
You refer to the "whiners and cry babies" - funny how those are the guys that dont agree with you. Your doing(insulting) the same thing that your accusing them of.
Thanks for providing some comic relief though, got any more good ideas for threads?
Doug
But can you bowl.
Hell yes, on a good day I can roll a 125! Thats is good aint it?
I do believe I have gone as high as 140 once but I have no proof, maybe time has made the number larger, sorta like the fish that you caught, gets bigger as time passes!
Doug
Pete, I'm scratching my head trying to understand how your little world works.You say you won't pay the guy until you get paid for the job. That's your agreement and a real man sticks to it. All us weenies (betas) suggest cutting the guy a check and moving on. You say that's not how a real man does it, he sticks to the agreement.You capitulate and cut the guy a check before you get paid and get your keys back. You didn't stick to your agreement, you capitulated.Now, this is where I get lost. You swagger in and announce you're an alpha male right after you capitulate to the guy to settle it and get your keys back.Huh?We're printing up your beta membership card now and will ask you send your alpha card on to the guy you fired. Oh, and get that chest shaved, us betas find hairy chests distracting.Lee
No, the check came in and his was cut immediately thereafter.
My Alpha membership remains safe.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
..., a relief to betas everywhere...,Lee
So the whole coming in here and asking for advise was just a fun thing to do while waiting for the check. You had no intention of following any of the advise you asked for.
Did the guy learn the lesson that you taught him?
I have not said anything on this yet but feel i must jump in to tell everyone im king alpha male, If theres a radio playing to loud , I smash it, If somebody dont wanna pay me i HAI KARATE his sorry azz, Limp wristed commie pinkos tremble when i walk up and dispurse from there Anarcist meetings Yeah im da MAN thats just da way i roll, Somebody dont like it well lets just say CHUCK NORRIS did not make that mistake twice, Opps i gotta go i better get these dishes done before the real boss gets home;)
Heh, heh, he..,Well, you're in the right thread. This is where insecure Alphas can puff out their hairy chests and tell us how manly they are. Can you crush beer cans on your forehead?Lee
raining here this morning----so i thought i would put in some time pre-cutting some slate in the customers garage------which frees up your mind to wander-------------
so I start thinking about this alpha/beta business---------------------
if donald trump and warren buffet---are in the same room-----who is the alpha?
i am pretty sure donald THINKS he is------but since warren can probably buy and sell donald all day long----hmmmmmm?
how about " W"----and Bill Gates in the same room?
obviously, "W" has probably the most "alpha" job in the world-----but it's the office he holds temporarily----it's not really him
where as Gates----falls more into the self made man mold---and arguably has had more of an impact on the wold----and will continue to do so--------?
what about a group of military officers-----is the alpha the guy with the "highest" rank?--is a general with a desk job--out alphaed buy a major in the field??????
who knew there was this whole ranking system going on???????
Stephen
>>>>>>>>who knew there was this whole ranking system going on???????If there's any question of who is the real alpha male, it's time to whip 'em out. Biggest one doesn't necessarily win. It's the owner of the first one to see daylight that wins. And then he makes the other guy his Biitch.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
"We have enough youth, how about a fountain of smart?"
damn,- i lose in that one also.
can't we just compare who has the better truck----------shoot, my 7 or 8 year old f150 doesn't get me anywhere there either
how 'bout bank accounts-----drat-- bested again
how 'bout whose kid is in the most expensive college-?-might have a shot there-----no wait---he's on scholarship plus grants and aid--that won't fly
how about biggest house????- hey i might have a chance with that one--things are looking up!!!!!!!!
Stephen
"who knew there was this whole ranking system going on???????"
all the girls.
at least since high school.
probably in middle school now days.
But they know.
it's simply science.
how the world is populated.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
All this alpha, beta, omega zilch stuff is pitiful.
Cut to the chase:
10 1/2" on a cold day.
"Hey, when you have to remind yourself how good you are, that's a sign."
Are your feet bigger on a warm day?
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
"10 1/2" on a cold day."Pretty short hammer if you ask me...Snork!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
dedubya alpha male,turned beta,changing the world--one diaper at a time.
LOL, So when you tell pete to suck it up and be a reel man, you mean he should hurry up, get the vacuming done, and reel in the cord before lisa trips over it, eh?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I keep hearing how mean Lisa is....Does she wear the pants in the family??? :)
you're just trying to out-alpha Lisa
I never said I was THAT tough!
Now watch what you say before you get me beat up again.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
"You cry too much anyhow."
See, there ya go. You don't even know me, and you're being an idiot. What's with this attitude of yours?
I'm not threatened by anything you say and/or do. I'm amused by your attitude and actions. I wonder how tall you are, because you're exhibiting classic symptoms of "little man syndrome."
Alpha, Beta, Omega, Zilch. Hey, when you're REALLY good, you don't have to be a jerk with a tagline.
See, there ya go. You don't even know me, and you're being an idiot. What's with this attitude of yours?
I think this is where I appropriately quote your original post to me.
If this is the way you talk and think about people you like, and your 'friends', then I'm glad not to be one of them. I use the term "friend" to mean a friend of mine, and that means I don't refer to them as AHs.
You're really caught up in this big man thing, so much so that you insult people who disagree with you, and refer to people as "beta males". That's an interesting complex you have going on there.
This thread has been great entertainment, 'my friend', please keep it going. The more I read, the more I understand why he didn't return the keys. Maybe he just wanted to be a 'friend'.
Hey, when you're this good, everybody wants a piece of you. Or not.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Right on, brother. Thank you for that.
Hey, when you're this good, the clock keeps tickin.
"I wonder how tall you are, because you're exhibiting classic symptoms of "little man syndrome."
You might just be onto something there.
This whole Alpha, Beta thing cracks me up. I'm a man not a dog. I walk the earth satisfied that I am who I am, and you are who you are. Why do people have to put titles and classes on everybody, and everything? Walk in the balance and all is good.
It's life, just do it.
They won't sell you a gun if you are crying.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
It's just Pete's way of saying that those who disagree with his business practices - using an employee's money as a float for operating capital against receivables - are gay.
or , as popeye woulda said...
I am what I am.......
hey, ya jealous bastid..... when was the last time you had a thread as entertaining as pete's ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/23/2007 6:04 am ET by MikeSmith
You didn't get a chuckle out of me standing there with a box of Tofu wondering what to do with it?
Truth be told I understand every bit of Petes frustration. And I understand why he didn't want to pop a check right out when the guy tried to hold his keys hostage. Most of the rest of it is gray. But if that's what the guy signed up for then So be it.
They won't sell you a gun if you are crying.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
It's all in how you read it.
all I see is
A nother
L oser
P retends
H e's
A ll that
It just gets more entertaining the more I read. ;-)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
just read thru the whole thing.
I love reading these idgits.
and on the top of them all ... I'm thinking SamT has the least clue here.
The guy isn't an employee ... and no one cares what LA Law is anyways ...
and even if he was an employee ... pay would revert back to "pay as scheduled".
No one is lagally bound to pay immediately upon dismissal or resignation.
last pay follows the "regular pay schedule" ...
sounds like U are following the regular pay schedule ... ie ... the agreement.
on that point ... Smith is wrong. Sam is wrong once more.
I do think yer getting all worked up about nothing.
Me ... I'd rekey just cause ... and deduct that amount. Just cause.
Bet that stands up in court.
he is holding your keys hostage ... but who cares?
I'd call and remind him he'll be shot on site if he approaches .. seeing as how the truck is parked outside yer kids bedrooms ...
and I'd also point out he'll be the first shot if anything happens to the truck ... so if I was him ... I'd want those keys outta my pocket asap ... less chance of getting shot for a random act of violence ...
tweaking Mike's idea a bit ... call and ofer to fight over the keys in the middle of a parking lot!
seriously ... at this point ... I'd consider the ksys gone and never plan on paying.
but that's just me ... and I'm pretty sure that won't hold up in court!
I'd sleep well at night too ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I don't keep the truck here, it is at a commercial lot nearby. So shooting the guy would have to be somebody else's job. LOL
I wasn't terribly worked up over it but this punk ticks me off with his strongarm approach. I'd just like to show him who's arm is stronger. I really hate wise guys.
As it goes now, I've got keys and the truck runs just fine without the extra set.
Too many armchair lawyers here trying to diagnose all the problems that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.
I'd assume that Sam has had some bitter personal experiences and wants to take it out on me.
A lot of the others somehow feel that I should reward the ex-driver for being a jerk. Doesn't make sense to me but heck... I'm the one that asked for the opinions.
Then there is some guy here who got a new ID and decided to use it just to stick one or two comments to me. So I guess I'll just let the coward have his fun from his position of anonymity. Why do you think a guy that probably uses a pseudonym feels the need to use an extra pseudonym to hide behind?? I'm a nice guy so I wouldn't assume he'd be that scared of me. LOL
Remember the day when men were men and they would actually stand behind their opinions and rants? At least there are some of us still left.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
that's what I'm thinking ...
and that's the only part where I think yer wrong.
OK .. 2 parts wrong.
first ... U ain't gonna get any common sense answers here ... U should know that. Lotsa conversation ... but no real help.
and second ... as I was gonna say to Sam ... what's your worry?
The guy's obviously seen U ...
met you ... probably had time to size you up.
dude ... you're an xbounty hunter with a trunk fulla shotguns ...
and a crazy ol' lady!
let him get pissed.
what's he gonna do aside from get himself hurt?
I can imagine Lisa's ideas right about now!
but I still say ... call and offer to meet somewhere neutral ... and throw the keys and chack in the middle of a parking lot ... and fight over them. Who ever walks away wins fair and square ...
didn't get me that $400 I'm still owed but man was fun suggesting it! Felt much better driving back home ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"I'd just like to show him who's arm is stronger. I really hate wise guys."That's what this is all about - too much misplaced, underutilized testosterone and ego all wound up!Nothing to do with good business sense, waht is legal, what is right, what is practical.Nothing at all but "I'm going to get that twerp back for this!"Also, if you think Spellchecker is doing this just to pick on you, you need to go visit the therapist for your paranoia, Pete.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The point is that I've more than kept up my end of the agreement and this punbk wants to strongarm me.
My logis is that I don't need to keep being the nice and overly fair guy that I have been and instead aI should teach him a lesson in business and in thinking he can do whatever he feels like to others.
I do not think I should reward his behavior.
When I finally got ahold of him after he disappeared for awhile.... I called and told him, essentially, I have 3 checks waiting here for you. Why don't you stop by and bring the keys so i can secure the truck. This is where he told me that he planned to keep the keys until he got his last check too.
FYI, I wasn't referring to Spellchecker. But thanks for the rude commentary. Don't be mad at me because you are so stubbornly and repeatedly wrong in this discussion.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete, your unwillingness to negotiate a compromise to end a conflict doesn't surprise me.Not a bit.Lee
Pete, I'm not mad in the least.I am curious about how somebody can be so blindly belligerant and get himself as worked up over such a simple thing as this. You make yourself into a great character in a half hour comedy over what isa ho-hum in a day of doing business.
I've had deals ten times as bad as this and never mentioned a thing about it. Stuff just happens sometimes and life goes on...If you let it.but right now you are facing backwards instead of forwards.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You're not mad and I'm not worked up.... must be the lack of perception via the written post.
I thought it was a simple situation.
Guy refuses to return keys.
Guy has money coming that will be paid to him on schedule.
Should I give him full monies or deduct for keys he won't return?
I wasn't trying to make it so convoluted but had to answer a slew of inquires about this guy's status as a sub, legalitlies of agreement, structure of Ohio law, evil of the bossman.... it became ridiculously muddied here.
You are the one that referes to me as "blindly beligerent" among other things. I can only assume this is an indication of anger on your part to use such terminology. Maybe I'm just reading you wrong. Lord knows that I am often taken in ways that I never intended.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Yeah, I get taken in ways I don't intend too, Pete.blind bellierance is an indication of how I see your responces and actions to him, niot any indication of any emotion I feel toward you. If I were to categortize any emotions I feel in this thread, it is mild amusement.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'd go pay the guy. And on the way back to my truck I'd key his car.
But that's just me.
They won't sell you a gun if you are crying.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
Sam is clueless.
Eeeps. You was right. I am pretty familiar with California labor law, and starting to get a handle on Missouri's.
But you definately got my number on Ohio's.
Ohio basically says "Businesses, Yay. Employee, Boo"
TITLE XLI LABOR AND INDUSTRY SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Samt,
Well it helps if you understand that historically Ohio was the birthplace of some of this countries biggest "Robber Barons" and their monopolies.
Ever here of Rockefellar and Standard Oil?
;-)
Changing the locks is NOT relevant. If it is security that worries you, there is nothing from any driver from getting copies made ... or your lot guy, for that matter. Indeed, a crook would return the keys with smiles, in front of witnesses ... then strike the next night!
You're going to stick to the fine print of the agreement? I have a few problems with that attitude.
The first is that your comments have revealed enough twists and turns in this agreement that no one here is competent to offer you advice ... every time we try, you toss in another 'detail.'
Then there is the matter of "what's legal." In Reno, the largest - by far- cab company had some "legal agreements" that were the direct cause of that firm going bankrupt ... ultimately losing all it's assets to its' most hated rival. All that disaster took was a small dispute with a state agency, and the question of what went along with 'independent contractor.'
I doubt there is anything in your agreement that prevents you from paying the guy. Rather, it seems to be more about your pride getting in the way of your good sense. "I'll show Him who's top dog around here" seems to be your motive. You want to say "I make ALL the rules ...not some driver!" I don't think I'd want to work for you.
Indeed, your attitude seems more along the lines of "I'll do what I want ... I don't care what anyone thinks ... My mind is made up ... Now, how can a screw this guy some more? .... dang uppity serfs these days...."
It's attitudes like those that breed unions, and legislation. Do you really think the Teamsters got their following because of caring, considerate employers? Forget about whatever you think the 'current atmosphere' suggests; you'd be wiser to remember that unions became established in a legal climate that was 100% opposed to them, in a time when employers actually had private armies, with fully automatic weapons. (In at least one case, the employer even had a cannon!)
Go ahead. Screw the guy. Just pray I'm not on the jury. Because that jury is far more likely to be filled with working stiffs, than fleet operators.
You've got the same problem Piffin does if you have this opinion that I'm screwing this guy.
Try reading.
The only reason for my addition of details is because of the constant evolving, by other posters, of the discusion here to include more aspects than were necessary.
This guy, having no special experience or licensing may be earning as much or more than are you. How am I screwing him?
His earnings are regularly as much as $240 per day after he pays for fuel and tolls. A mild, shorter day might only earn him $160 after he pays for fuel and tolls.
He is paid on an agreed schedule, as a sub, typically within 14 days from his date of invoice. Sometimes it will be 30 days depending on the client but that is rare. He has been paid in a timely manner for all invoices except for one short one, that was a 30-day arrangement.
Tell me again about how bad he had it.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
you know you could go to junk yard and get two door lock for about twenty bucks,
Pete, you have a reading disability if you think i've said that you are screwing this guy.It is yourself that you are screwing. i'm just trying to help you noiticce that before your cheeks are rosy red
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
reading disability?
In this case I implied the problem you and the other poster shared was a faliure to read comprehensively... not that I was screwing the guy.
Sorry for not making it more clear.
You do seem to be a little worked up lately when you've responded to me in various threads. Is it just me? Maybe it's just my unfamiliarity with your natural charm?
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
SO sorry if I failed to pat you on the back and tell you what a wonderful guy you are. You started this thread, asking opinions .... be a man and accept them as such. As I see it, everyone has been quite generous in offering their opinions. As is to be expected, the opinions vary quite a bit. That, IMO, is healthy. As for myself ... I note in your last reply you found it important to infer what my personal situation may - or may not- be. This is interesting, as you have absolutely no way of knowing anything about me ... or even who I am. Anyone can be anything on the internet. Not that it matters a bit. Whether I be prince or pauper ... my opinion is mine, and the only thing I deserve from you is "thank you." Now, one might assert that you get what you pay for. Maybe I am completely unqualified. Fair enough ... go out and hire an expert. Pay him what his opinion is worth. Another good quote form the "Good Book" says "I (God) have given you a good doctrine ... its ways are ways of happiness, and all its' paths are peace." I submit that if you're getting this worked up, that you know in your heart that your approach is petty and wrong. If you mind is made up, fine. Just give us all a big "thanks" and move on. I have better things to do.
i paid guys off right away cause i just wanted to put it all behind me fast, but pete in a way my hats off to you, where does it end with some of these guys, pretty soon they will go to the next guy and set policy on the weakest link of employers, some of the posters here are very smart and present good arguments, But im glad to see someone putting there foot down, If i had a carpenter leave and he had my tools and keys to my truck and buildings i would want them back, Not giving you the keys is sorta like saying im blackmailing you to Im not you so i cant say but i think i might have a little feeling of being strongarmed, . No matter what is said YOU gave someone a job, YOU made things happen, YOU went out on a limb to buy the truck, Its getting everywhere this idea the boss is bad,
Pete,
I had a similar problem when I was a manager of an environmental company but with door keys. I would pay him his money to get rid of him. HOWEVER he needs to know and understand that you have contacted the local police dept. and that they are aware that he "may" have a set of keys to one of your vehicles. Tell him that if anything should happen, he will be the FIRST one that they come looking for.
Good Luck!
Mark
Pete,
Thank you for this thread.
Now, I forgive;
The fruitstand, my first official employer
Honest Charly's Used Cars, a client
The redwood miller HO GC
The cabinet installer boss
And you. But really, you were just a substitute for the above named.
Exxon, I knew better than to trust you.
Forgive means to give up anger against.
SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.