As an architect raised in a family of builders, I was always fortunate to be able to “pick the brains” of men and women who actually perform the work and get to see the plus and minus of the architect’s design. Now I am turning to this forum because something is bugging me and I would like to get other people’s opinion who are in the “trenches” day in and day out.
We have specified a 4″x4″ end grain wood floor (Birch), that is dredged from the bottom of the Great Lakes, to be the floor finish material. The supplier has called for the tiles (for a lack of a better word) to be glued onto the substrate (which is concrete) and leave a 1/8″ gap (joint) between the tiles. He then stated to fill the joint with glue mixed with saw dust. Then the floor is sanded and finished with a water based polyurethance coast. My question is, if ‘everything” is glued how will this floor breath? how will it expand and contract? In a normal strip wood floor we allow the joints to move and have a “gap” at the ends, this installation seems to lock everything in and not let the material move. Has anyone worked with such a material or have any suggestions?
Thank you.
Replies
"My question is, if 'everything" is glued how will this floor breath? how will it expand and contract?"
That wood is going to move. I can't tell you the science, but cracks in the surface will develop with seasonal humidity fluctuations, or moisture will migrate through the glue bonding the blocks to the concrete, or maybe through the edges of the blocks...but however it happens, it will happen. And those wood blocks need room to expand and contract individually or you run the risk of them acting as a single large sheet that will seperate from the substrate when it (they) swell.
Been there. Had it happen.
That's why I don't like the sound of 1/8" gaps filled with sawdust and glue, which gets harder than the wood itself. How the heck is that going to contract to absorb space from swelling blocks? I think you'd be better served with a corklike "grout" between those blocks. Something that will stay relatively soft and can expand and contract better than glue.
Yo Jim. I agree with what you said. Buuuuut. Seattle Center has a herking dance floor made from end-grain doug fir and it looks fine. So apparently it can be done.
You are way in the wrong folder, this is the Fest folder. This is about get togethers of this motley crew to swap lies, tools, ideas, and drink sometimes. Should be const. tech, or gen discussion.
Welcome by the way. I saw a Bob Villa something or another show about 6 yrs ago where they did that. Seems like they used the sawdust (sometimes called flour) from cutting the blocks mixed with lacquer. My guess is that this binds but does not make the "caulking" rock hard and retains some compressability.
Bob
Appreciate it...thanks!
I seen that same Bob Villa show, they were in Chicago.
I thought they used sawdust and varnish as the grout. I taped the show so that I could do that kind of floor someday, I thought it was cool.
Doug
I think I have it on tape somewhere too. You are probably right about varnish. I could be confusing it with what my paint guy told me when we were doing our cherry floor. To mix the sanding dust with laq. Linseed oil seems like it would work too. We did our floor in two parts high quality tung oil, one part boiled linseed oil, one part min spirits.
I've heard of mixing the sawdust with danish oil to make the "grout". Probably anything between varnish and BLO would work. Supposed to stay sawdusty for a few days, and then set-up quite well. From what I've heard.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Wood end grain blocks were fairly common for industrial floor a few decades back. The Catepiller plant in Forest Grove, Oregon, had such a floor when I went through the plant just after it was shut down. Some of the flooring was being pulled up and they appeared to come up fairly easily, so I doubt that they were glued together. They seemed to just be pushed together with perhaps some oil soaked sawdust filling the few voids. I found it hard to believe that an oil soaked wood floor was the standard floor for heavy welding operations, but that was what they had.
You might check out:
http://www.pa.msu.edu/services/machine-shop/shopfloor.htm
http://www.kaswell.com/
(There are several pages that discuss wood block floors so you want to click on the list at the left of the screen. They list a number of projects they have done. Perhaps one is in your area and you could go and ask some questions)
http://www.plantservices.com/articles/2006/120.html
End grain works, but I don't know the details. The Getty Museum in Los Angeles has this flooring in their caffeteria. I noticed it becuase it was so beautiful.
As far as the filler. I was wondering about that a few years ago when I asked about that here on breaktime. I only got one response, and it said to just mix the sawdust with whatever the finsh was going to be. It recommended against using other finishes or sanding sealer to mix with the sawdust. Without any other comments or things found online I went ahead and did that.
On my first floor about 4 years ago I put down reclaimed walnut parquet tiles. These tiles are made with 3/4 in thick, 2 1/4" x 11" tongue and groove pieces. They are glued down just like they had been in their original home. Since I removed these from a place that got wet, there was mild to moderate damage to most of them. There were lots of gaps that were about 1/16" and a few closer to 1/8". I mixed polyurethane (which was the intended final finish) with leftover sawdust. I mixed it to pasty but a little runny consistency and applied it using a rubber sponge trowel. This worked quite well but took a long time to finish effectively. Then a sanding with a random orbit sander was necessary to remove all of the leftover grit. The floor was then finished with 3 coats of polyurethane. I have had no regrets, It worked so well that I did the same process again in another room that has it's original pine t&g floor, but used shellac. So far so good with the shellac based filler and finish.
Our house gets pretty good seasonal changes since we get a damp basement in the spring through summer. It also is humid here in the summer and we don't aircondition the house. The winter gets cold and dry here and we use a really powerful wood stove that throws so much radiant heat that everything gets super dry.
Even with these conditions none of the filler is popping out. The only cracks that have occurred are the tiny kind that would occurr with any natural wood floor.
The main thing that I might consider if you are doing a large area is planning expansion gaps that have a rubber strip or something like that. My floor is on a wood subfloor, which presumably expands and contracts with my floor. Your concrete one won't move, and that may cause problems. My reclaimed flooring came from concrete floors where many (about 1/2) had popped off due to the expansion and contraction from the water and temp swings. The other 1/2 were a real pain to get off though.
Maybe you need to put in a semi-floating or 3/4 plywood subfloor and then glue the stuff down. I have no Idea if this would work right, but it's worth finding out.
Sandalboy
You sound like you have a nice floor so where the hell are the pictures of it!
Doug
OK here are some pics. Appolgies for no wide view of the walnut. The room is currently too messy with kids toys and in need of a good mopping. It's in the family room / kitchen. After 4 years abuse you can see that it needs new a new coat of poly on it. The close up is of about an 1/8 x 1/8 square gap filled with sawdust /polyurethane mix. The pine is in the kids bedroom, done just a few months ago with shellac and wax finish.
RESIZE PICS, PLEASE.........!
DPR
The end move in politics is always to pick up a gun. R. Buckminster Fuller
Hey,
How thick are these "tiles"? I have seen 4x4x4 blocks set in tar(at least it looked like tar) And just sanded finish. Done.
DPR
C11,
I have installed many end grain floors. We manufactured tiles for awhile.
Birger Juell is probably most responsible for re-introducing this style of wood floor. In my opinion, the most beautiful and most durable of all wood floor styles. There are examples of end grain floors in Europe that are 1000 years old.
As far as movement is concerned: End grain tiles move very little. Wood moves most along it's grain, which means that an end grain tile will grow up and down more than in any other direction.
We always used Bostiks Best adhesive. Use a full spread with a 3/8" X 3/8" notched trowel. Use Timbermate filler cut 30% with water. Apply the filler with a tile grout pad and press it into the spaces between the tiles. Sand the floor flat with 40 grit and apply another coat of filler, concentrating on the gaps between the tiles. Sand to 80 grit and finish. I like Waterlox for a finish. 2 coats sealer, 2 coats finish.
"As far as movement is concerned: End grain tiles move very little. Wood moves most along it's grain, which means that an end grain tile will grow up and down more than in any other direction."
I think more folks than just me are gonna dispute that..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Wood moves most along it's grain
Say what?
This is opposed to my experience and everything I've read. To quote R. Bruce Hoadley "Understanding Wood" (Taunton Press) p. 73:
"Total wood shrinkage of wood along the grain is normally only about 0.1%. An 8-ft wall stud that is installed green and allowed to dry to an average 8% moisture content would shrink only about 1/16 in. In normal wood, longitudinal shrinkage is considered negligible. In juvenile wood or in reaction wood, longitudinal shrinkage can be as much as 2%, about 20 times that of normal wood. Abnormal wood usually develops unevenly in severity and distribution, and the resulting uneven longitudinal shrinkage may cause severe warping. In practice, however, we usually can forget about the longitudinal shrinkage of normal wood."
Whereas tangential movement ranges from 4.4 (old growth redwood) to 12.4% (Pacific Madrone), depending on species. Roughly 40-120 times longitudinal movement. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I meant to say across it's grain. I stand corrected. The rest of my advice pertaining to installing and finishing end grainers stands.
The rest made sense to me, particularly the filler. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I hope he just got cornfused in his terminology...
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.