Maybe Knots is a better place to post this, but maybe knot <G>!
For my upcoming installation, everything frameless, I am thinking of doing all my endwall fillers as two-piece “ells,” with the hidden leg screwed to the adjacent carcase side, and the face leg out flush with the adjacent door or drawerfront bank.
With the typical one-piece filler, the face of it is back at the face of the carcase, in the shadows, and I though the filler mounted proud, and out flush with the fronts, would give a more finished look.
With all my reveals, door to door, door to drawer, and drawer to drawer, at 1/8″, I will need to make and apply the two piece end fillers so that that margin is maintained.
Your comments are appreciated.
Replies
Typically I order an overlay piece for the filler. The overlay is scribed an 1/8"(or whatever reveal your doors have) than the filler piece. The overlay is screwed to the filler doggy style. Then the filler is screwed to the cabinet box. The overlay ends up on the same plane as the doors. Usually the overlay is made with the same edge detail as the door.
Good idea re the edge detail of overlay piece same as fronts. Not having done it yet, I wasn't thinking of it.
The order is for fronts in a plain shaker style, with a tiny radius edge break all round. I'll want that tiny edge break on one edge of the overlay stock.
This order is coming from Scherr's Cabinets and Doors, a Minot, ND supplier of KD frameless packages. When I discussed two-piece fillers with them, I got the feeling I was treading on new ground with them. Now I'll introduce the concept of the "overlay stock with one edge detailed" and their heads'll spin.
Doggy style, huh? New term to me. Must mean screwed through from the back.
Is this a family forum?
I've never worked with Scherr's, but have heard good things.
Doggy style, huh? New term to me. Must mean screwed through from the back.
That's right. I say it all the time, guess I didn't realize.
Is this a family forum?
I dunno, but they show animals "doing it" all the time on the Discovery channel.
Re Scherr's, the attached pic is an example of what they will do for you when you ask.
It is a powder room vanity, two cab boxes, frameless, but the leftmost is boosted out with a 2" surround to handle the slide-by doors. They are sliders because they are back on the side of the toilet. We have generous clearances here, but hinged doors would not open fully.
The recessed nook part between the slider door cab and the hinged door cab is for the toilet paper roll.
Scherr's will furnish everything KD, including all the face components, the paper roll nook elements, and they will prep for and supply the rolling door hardware and tracks.
This piece is faced in select cherry, prefinished, and is part of the order, which includes over 100 doors, over 50 drawers, all drawers 5/8 dovetailed maple, all slides Blum Tandem with Blumotion closing dampers, and all doored cabs prepped for the Blumotion soft door close damper pistons, which are furnished.
With a little work, we can make this KD frameless package look totally custom.
All hinges except for the few that are specialty are the Blum 120 degree Inserta type, which require no tools except your nice clean hands and fingers to install.
Did you do the parts list, or just send them a drawing?
I've been thinking about buying kitchens from them. The way I operate now I can pawn all of the layout, and design work off on the kitchen designer. The designer just gives me a price on the cabs, and make their commission. Saves me a lot of time, and effort.
Parts list. I'm not sure that Scherr's would do something like this from just drawings.
But I have found that they are truly a one-stop shop for cabinetry and specialties, like all the high end stuff you can put inside, like pullouts, etc.
As for pulls, they offer just the basics. The world of pulls is so huge, and tastes so personal, that they cannot offer everything.
In my opinion, scribes should not be flush with the doors and drawers, they should be back with the carcase. If they're flush, they have to be large enough (1-1/2" to 2" at least) to not look stupid, and that's too much wasted space in a custom cabinet installation.
I've built quite a few frameless kitchens and always had my scribes back at the carcase line. You can go with 3/4" to 1" back there and it looks good. The only exception would be if there's a doorway close by on the adjacent wall and the casing is thick, then you go larger and it starts to look better if the scribe is flush with the door face.
Sometimes the architect tells you what to do and you have no choice.
i always place fillers flush with the doors and drawers and if posible with a routered edge to match. mounting them does of course require a cleat of some kind, a scrap of anything, nailed and glued to the filler will work. for a really fine job an L shaped filler of material finished all over will allow the filler to be mounted past the box to allow extra space taken by hinge adjustment and drawer bumpers
i'll try and draw a scetch and post it later
Is this what you do?
That's correct Gene.
If the overlay material happens to be the same thickness as the doors, you may need to space it away from the backer or filler a bit IF you are concerned about it planing correctly with the door or drawer fronts. If you attempt to order thicker material from the supplier, then they may look at you as though you are wearing a tin foil hat.
Most times the difference is barely discernable.
Re; the "backer" as you have it labeled. You will want this to be matching material as you will have a small reveal btween the overlay and the carcase.
Sounds like you're rounding third base. We may be up in the winter. Ready for some laps on the oval?It's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
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I am getting anal about this filler thing, but attached here are four methods. A thru C are my own hallucinations, and D is one suggested by a guy over at the JLC site.
What do you think?
B is the only one worth considering. Those tiny offsets between the face piece and the backing piece in the other three are totally unnecessary and a PITA to make. If you feel you need that extra ~1/16" of clearance created by offsetting the scribe face from it's backing then you haven't studied your door sizes and hinge clearances enough to know.
Here is the problem. Let's say a run of wall cabs has two carcases, one a double, with paired doors, and the adjacent a single with its own door. I have runs like that for the current project.
And the example could have been a run of three doubles. Any run of more than one carcase.
The way Scherr's standard program goes, all door and drawerfront side reveals, unless otherwise specified, are 1/16". Fronts are sized to be 1/8" less in width than the carcase width, and doors have the 35mm bore prep set so that the hinge fixes the door closed with the 1/16". With this in play, door/drawer margins are 1/8" between adjacent cabinets.
They can readily change both side margins to 1/8" (they call it a 5/8" overlay) for a single cabinet, and size fronts accordingly, plus do the hinge bore accordingly. But if you want this 5/8" overlay for just the end door/drawers on a run of joining cabs, or for just one side of the fronts on a single cab, their heads start to spin.
Method B requires just this . . . a 5/8" overlay only where there is a filler/endwall condition. Physically, it is certainly possible. The way the pic is drawn, the left door of a paired door wallcab will be 1/16" narrower than the right door, and its hinge prep will set the door with a 5/8" overlay. Drawerfronts are correspondingly 1/16" narrower, and are fixed to the drawerboxes slightly off center. But try to get this through a CNC-controlled cabinetmaking plant, and you'll need special instructions, and a plant engineer to walk the job through. Otherwise, mistakes will happen.
The front-to-carcase-edge reveal wasn't called out or dimensioned on any of the pics, but B is the only one that requires that the cab plant do something funky, special, and fraught with mistake potential.
The guy that promoted method D, the doweled standoff face filler, says it is a simple execution. The carcase filler is fit and fixed as per usual. The face filler is fit, cut, and bored with two or three stopped 8mm dowel holes. Dowel pins are inserted, and with a shim to hold the desired reveal common top to bottom, the filler is tapped against the carcase filler to leave marks for drilling. He says that the face filler is then placed in its standoff position with glued dowels, and when the glue sets everything is done.
I haven't decided yet what to do. I am waiting to see what makes sense at Scherr's.
I could stop all this foolishness, and just back off to the one-piece filler method whereby the filler face is back at the carcase face, about 7/8" back from the face of the fronts. But I dislike the look of those "buried" fillers, and would prefer flushface fillers and nice equal 1/8" margins everywhere.
Edited 9/29/2005 11:29 am ET by Stinger
Ahhhh... your vendor is complicating it for you. A custom cabinetmaker takes into account the need for varying side reveals, by drilling the 35mm hinge cup holes at slightly different edge distances. Sometimes you can get enough play in the hinge adjustments to make it work out, but don't bank on it.
Depending on the door edge detail, you can sometimes shave a sixteenth off of the doors that need it, and reshape the edge. That gives you the 1/8" gap to the scribe. With simple roundover and thumbnail stuff this works well and is not noticeable. Even in a whole house you are only going to have a handful of wall scribes and it's fairly easy to deal with the problem that way.
I think you're going to hate making L-scribes with small offsets in them. The typical way to do those is to biscuit them together and then belt sand the joint flush if it isn't already.
Maybe it's just my mentality to avoid doing details like that offset. I'd rather shave the doors.
Gene
Of the 4 ideas that you posted the only one of them that I would use is B. The others complicate things.
Here is another one that I have used, sorry no fancy graphics, just a sketch.
A shop that I worked at did this all the time, its a 1/2" X 1/2" piece that is set back 1/2" and therefore kinda hidden.
You could make it bigger then 1/2" if needed, some walls could be out by that much!
Doug
A or B.
I'd be a tad concerned about the 1/16" reveal; doesn't give you a lot of room to fudge, and you know you will have to someplace.
I told you to space the overlay foward from the filler. That is what D shows, but that is a bit complicated.
I would clamp the filler to the overlay, drill the filler to just mark the back of the overlay. Glue a metal washer of appropriate thickness at each hole, then screw the filler to the back af the overlay.
Mount the whole shebang to your cabinet side; done.
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Edited 9/29/2005 6:25 pm ET by EricPaulson
I think I am going to be stuck doing something that offsets the filler edge 1/16 away from the carcase, so as to get my desired 1/8 margin between door and filler.
This package is coming 100 percent prefinished, and to ask for differing margins wherever endwalls occur is asking for trouble, I think. Maybe not, though.
If my supplier will supply me with the requisite 7/8 thickness (method A) then that is probably what I will do.
Getting the sixteenth offset when the filler and filler mount are joined shouldn't be a problem. I'll make a little bench jig for fit-up and fastening, and use Bicycle playing card stock for my .060 shim.
I am not sure why you would want the gap, as you describe, unless you have only 3/4" stock for the filler. My supplier makes me a 13/16" door or drawerfront that is bumped out as I show, thus the 7/8-inch from cab face to get out flush.
Your method with screw and washer, if using 3/4 stock, will require a washer buildout of 1/8".
Your method with screw and washer, if using 3/4 stock, will require a washer buildout of 1/8".
Less...........filler stock mounts flush to the cabinet front. (I don't care for the way your method leaves the filler stock proud of the front of the cabinet)
The washer (or shim) will bring the overlay into plan with the doors and drawers.
If you have a need to tweak the hinge on a door because the box is a little cross legged, (door bumper hits at bottom of cabinet, but not at the top, so you need to bring out the lower hinge) you will loose the sameness on the plane of the door to the overlay anyway.
You are right; you a being way to anal about this.
An old mentor used to say; "by the time we get done discussing this, we could have it done!"
Have fune Gene, I hope all is going well up there.
EricIt's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
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yes
He's in between walls, not trying to figure out how to finish and end run.
Open the pdf's.
It's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
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Whoops......SRi....
Bud