So I have this rental, And they needed a shed to store bikes, rakes and such.
The house is 100 years old, has basically no foundation under it, and I plan on tearing it down in +- 15 years. It is not a keeper, ( 2×4 24″ o.c. rafters, lots of hack changes over the years, etc.)
So the shed was supposed to be quick, cheap, and effective.
I decided to go with “pole barn” construction and throw a shed roof onto the house.
What’s done is done, but I would be interested in what you guys think about this approach, especially on the engineering/ structural side of things. Not so much how to do it perfect, more of is it o.k?
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Replies
I had a shed like that in the back yard two houses ago. They got some poles with creosote on them from somewhere and sided it with something they got somewhere else. Termites had gotten around the creosote and were quite active in it but it might still be there. I'm not sure but I seem to remember that the poles were bound together with a thick wire.
It was attached to the house and there were no problems?Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Some pics.
There is more to this story but I gotta run.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I've always thought that it's a challenge to half-adze something when you're not a half-adze, especially when doing your normal plan would be so out of place and out of budget. I think you did great.
Edited 10/19/2007 11:39 am ET by john7g
OK, so you don't see "hack" written all over this?
I lowered my design standards for the situation but didn't want to do something unsafe or shoddy.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
You said you wanted it quick, cheap, and effective.
I think you succeeded on all three. That in itself is a feat worth something.
I see no reason to be bothered.
I know you said this was your rental,but ya know, if you were doing this for a paying customer they would have gotten just what they wanted and were willing to pay for.
Simple economics,.... carry on
dug
Thanks, I'm running this by you guys to see how wrong the world is.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Nope, no Hack wirtten on it anywhere. Hard thing to do but the existing structure usually sets the tone for style/methods to a certain degree. Looks like you made sure it was safe enough. What more can one ask for?
"
What more can one ask for? "
Gotta get to a football game. I'll be back to answer that
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
"What more can one ask for?"
I would guess that would depend on who you are. On Saturday the renter and I started laying the shed out, just to get a feel for what we wanted. At first I was thinking 12 x12 would do, but after laying it out and standing some posts we up'ed it to 12 x 16. Then it seemed like a good idea to just go ahead and auger the holes since it was a nice day. Probably because I do this kind of stuff for a living, I just kind of got into a stride and pieces just started poppin' together. Somewhere around nailing off the sheathing, He asks me what I think about a permit. OOps, I say to self. It was not our intension to build the thing, it just happened in the build / design phase.
At this point I figure what the he77, it's just a shed, no safety issues, no health issues, is built to meet all loads, might as well just finish it out.
Then as I'm putting some siding up on Monday afternoon - I get a visit from the BI. He seems to think it would be a good idea for me to pull a permit for this project.
Tuesday morning, draw up what I've got, head down to AHJ.
This is where it gets pretty stupid, and the reason that I would like some real world feedback on the engineering side of this little project.
End up talking to commisioner of build/zone. Explain parameters of design, reason for use, lifespan of residence and shed.
He explains to me that he " doesn't like the idea of two different kinds of foundation ". He would " like to see a full foundation under this structure ". I then explain to him that if I put a full foundation under it, that I woul still end up with two different kinds of foundation - due to the 100 year old stack of bricks existing under the house.
In my way of thinking - after doing remodeling, GC, new construction, designing, and building structures for the last 20 + years - this design meets all acceptable requirements. Every pole barn built in this county has the same style of " foundation " .
I have found nothing in the code that addresses this. It does not say that all parts of a structure have to have the same foundation. Which it would not have anyway.
Bottom line from him is that he is " uncomfortable " and his only choice is to only approve what is in the code ( but it isn't ) or if I have an engineer's stamp that he would approve it ( he would have to since he is not an eng. ) Basically what we have here is some nimrod that doesn't really understand the real world of remodelling. He opens the code book and doesn't see a picture of this scenario and assumes that it doesn't meet code.
I can detach this from the house, move it to a location no closer than 10' from the house, and it would require no foundation at all.
I will not put a foundation under this thing.
I will not go through the BS of engineering.
How do you guys feel about the code / structural aspect of it now?
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Assuming that your poles are below frost line and padded out, as is the usual practice in my area, that should make them immune from heaving.
Hudson Valley Carpenter,
What is your frost line in that area? Just curious. I grew up in the Lowville ( near Watertown),area. Nothing but sand, I haven't seen any cement block foundations in Vermont :) .
Northeastvt
The standard for the Mid-Hudson area is 48", bottom of footing.
That was my thought.
won't heave and can support the load, what's the problem?
Oh well.
Thanks.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
You've got a fair amount of work and material in this thing. The inspector has offered you an out to get an engineers stamp on the as-built project. It would cost me $200 to $300 to get an engineer to do a site visit and write a letter of opinion stating that the structure is acceptable to him as built. That would take the liability off the inspector, get you past the failure to pull permits, and keep you from having to tear down your shed. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I agree.
That is/was a somewhat viable approach, but not something that I wanted to do for no reason other than someone feeling "uncomfortable".
This kind of starts to swing into a code thing. How can you enforce a code onto people if your own code doesn't cover thier situatiion, and then just arbitrarily say that you don't like it? I have 6 neighbors ( who can actually view the property )that want/wanted it right where it is/ was.
Keep in mind that all of the loads required by the code were met. He just didn't like the approach (but then that's not his job). What if he didn't like the color?
I do appreciate your input, and in certain cases I'd be all over the engineer. In this case, for such a rediculous little shed, and on property that I own, I don't see why I have to prove myself to a person who doesn't know better.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
<<I don't see why I have to prove myself to a person who doesn't know better.>>Simply because he's the chief building inspector and he can make your life miserable if he thinks you are being disrespectful to him. Choose your battles, here you can pay $300, swallow your pride and "principles" and move on with the project. Some day soon when he doesn't want you to use spray foam or do a sealed crawl or something you can go over his head and risk a confrontation. You started work without a permit, go ahead and take the out he's offered. From his perspective hes being kind to you to offer this alternative when he could have you tear the thing down and pull a permit before you start. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I gotcha.
Well reasoned.
I appreciate the info and effort.
Thank you.
That's why I threw this out there - real life problem in the building world, what should go down and why.
You got ten years on me - this whole " drop the principle thing" must be just over the horizon. ;)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I recently had a Building Inspector make me hire an engineer on a 20' x 30' carport. I have several builder friends who spent over twenty grand chasing $8,000 level claims against clients who then badmouthed them all over town. One of them ran the legal bill up towards forty grand chasing a ten thousand dollar rip-off and finally shut his business down as a result. Sometimes the principle of the thing is just a thorn keeping you up at night. I built a house for my neighbor and she never paid the last $2,600 on the bill. I realized that I would have done the job for $2,600 less and when the debt got to be six months old with no sign of payment I sent her a nice letter telling her the debt had been forgiven. She wrote back and said that she planned to pay me but was short on cash right then. I still don't understand exactly why she didn't pay me, she seems happy with the house, I know I made a good profit on it even with the missing $2,600. Just a strange thing, not worth making myself or her miserable about. It's hard to decide were to draw the line, I guess if it impacted the profitability of the job or if she had been bad-mouthing me all over town I would have talked to a lawyer. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Gotcha again, and agree again.
I'm just goin' to have a little fun with this one. Just cause I'm in the drivers seat in my actual scenario.
I'll keep you posted.
Thanks.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
oops.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
sectionRemodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Why not just strip the facia off, and bevel a 2X6 screw it to the rafter tails, and nail the rafters to that? Metal roof over purlins and a gravel bed is fine for bikes.
Build it for about a dollar-two-ninety-eight...
So, so far you think I over built it?
I kind of agree, but I try to improve a site any time I'm on it.
But structurally, you don't find anything offensive?Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Looks good to me. If it don't fall down on my head while I'm in it, I like it....
If it don't fall down on my head while I'm in it, I like it
That's a good definition of a shed. And another excuse to post my shed photo <G>.
Kudos on a good job to the original poster on your bike/stuff shed.
A temporary (< 20 years lifetime) should be able to be built for less than 50 cents per square foot if you stay with a dirt floor.
The 757 sheds, the cheap shed, ofw, and the ivy shed were all built for jsut the cost of the nails, less than a nickel a foot. The 757 sheds are over 20 years old now even. Note: 757 sheds were built from the mockup of the interior discarded in the early '80's - that's why I called 'em that. Note the arch on the upper left segment - that arch is from inverted mockup plywood supports for 757 body sections.
Even the 'tractor shed' was built for less than 50 cents sq ft, 100 percent free surplus materials except for most nails and the 12 ga wire and about 1 gal of roofing tar - even the garage door and opener were 'free', only cost was the gas needed to pick'em up and haul them away -owner said the company installing his new doors wanted $180 to haul off the old ones. Roof is mostly old formica kitchen countertops.
The sheds with concrete floors probably cost close to $1 sq ft. in todays $$ due to cost of concrete.
Watch craigslist and other websites for free building materials for sheds.
View Image
Edited 10/19/2007 9:04 pm ET by junkhound
Thank you.
As the king of sheds and all things common sense that means alot.
Especially because you can back it up with conventional education and history of what will work.
Stay tuned.
I will unveil how this situation played out this weekend.
I would like to know from the people here what is wrong with what I did.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
JHOLE,
Your post sounds like you are just begging for criticism on the shed, and you get nothing but compliments! The old 'reverse psychology trick eh? :) . The only thing I would be concerned about, would be the siding nails protruding on the inside, if there are any. Other than that, it serves it's purpose, was cost effective and will be gone in 15 years +- anyway.
Northeastvt
I was, and am, trying to not influence any response - in an attempt to figure out if I was right in this or if I'm all wet.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
JHOLE,
I was just kidding around. It sounds like he is being an @#@#, because you sidestepped his "authority". If this is someone you have to deal with often, just be careful how you handle it. If you tick him off it could come back to haunt you every time you pull a permit. If it was me, I would first try telling him, "I'm sorry, I got carried away in the design stage, I know I was wrong, it will never happen again, I can't warrant spending all that money on a foundation for a bicycle shed, i'll just go ahead and tear it down, after all you are the authority!". That gives him all the "power".I wouldn't be surprised if he came back with, "Let me think it over, after all, it is only a bicycle shed, I might be able to allow it this once". If that didn't work, then I would probably be a smart@ss, and ask him if I took the back wall out, can we call it a carport? And wanted to hook a deck to the structure, should I pour a concrete foundation, or use brick? I think he is being rather ridiculous..
northeastvt
I agree with everything you say.
That's kind of how it's going now.
Thanks for some degree of affirmation, I'm just trying to see if I'm way off base.
I have so far been consice and short, trying to stick to the facts.
I actually don't think he has a code leg to stand on. But, I'm wrong on the start without a permit thing. I'd be a firebomb right now if I hadn't done that.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
All ye within the sound of my voice, behold the "Shedman" and bow down before his magnificent creations.
A calander would be nice 'cause you got enough "pin-ups..."
Do you think you will have any problem with the OSB and ground contact (Im thinking moisture/water problems)? Could wrap the bottom of the panels with something like ice & water shield.
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Maybe.
I put hardi around the bottom course.
It will probably still wick, but even if it does, it wont cause any structural failure.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
And I guess, even if it does get wet, it should dry out pretty quick. Are you planning on putting some type of door for the front opening? I'd bet rez or junkhound ( I mean shedmaster) have a door that would fit just perfect!!!
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Yes, My plan was for a 8 x 7 OH door.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I've always wanted to build a shed out of overlapping, pre-shingled sheets of plywood--fasten the top two sides together inside to inside to form a thin ridge, use cables holding it down and spreaders to keep the two sides apart to put an ogee curve in it. Sort of an onion-dome/Quansett hut. Figured it would be cheap and would shed snow. Never got around to actually doing it. Maybe when my garage finally sinks into the ground I'll attempt it.
According to my BI if your garage is buit with post construction, it will be sinking into the ground any minute now. ;)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
All the garages in my neighborhood, I found out from talking to a neighbor, are sinking. Many, like mine, have vinyl siding, and that is being skrunched up and sort of peeled off as they sink. I spent a lot of effort several summers ago jacking up one corner and putting in new PT plates on the slab. (The wall had slid off the old, rotted plate and studs--the front wall was being supported mainly by the overhead door rails whose bottom ends were resting on the slab!) I sistered new studs and a neighbor drove up with his truck and shoved the corner back onto the slab. Two summers ago, the other corner was sinking, broken slab and all, so I jacked it up and filled with hydraulic cement and put some cedar shims under the still okay plate. But the slab is still sinking into the ground.
Eventually I may have to lift the whole thing up and put a better foundation under it, but would probably be less expensive just to tear it down and start over (except I put a new roof on about ten years ago--and before that beefed up a column and beam that supported a sort of lean-to bump out--also made the rafters and joists into more like trusses for better support on the main part). The guy who built the house and garage was a farmer who worked at Dow--he most definitley was not a builder.
FWIW
I think it looks fine. Good job. I would let you build a shed for me!
My DH wears the pants in the family. But I control the zipper!
Thanks, you pull the permits first.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
No Problem! I like having the permits.My DH wears the pants in the family. But I control the zipper!
IMO it's perfect solution for the requirements.
If you put some plastic on the ground and cover it with that coarse sand or whatever, that should keep it dry enough so that the bikes don't get rusty.
Thanks, that's what I thought.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City