Hey Gang-
I was selling an exterior door today and the buyer asked about R.O. height. The door reads it needs an 82 1/2″ RO, and he assumed that was off the subfloor. As a flooring (hardwood) installer, I tried to persuade him to put down a piece of 3 1/2″ wide cedar (usually 7/8″ high) under the doors’ sill. Here’s why: whenever we install 3/4″ hardwood up to a door, we are required to leave a 3/4″ gap between it and the sill. How do you cover this gap up? Even 3/4″ quarter round would be stretching it, so often we use door stop laid flat. The problem is how to attch it to the door and not the floor as the floor will ‘move’.
Here’s where the cedar comes in. By raising the door up 7/8″, we can slip the last piece of flooring under the sill and avoid the gap. A little silicone fills the gap and we’re done. A bonus is the fact that alot of people want a walk-off mat inside the door. Without raising the door assembly, you often can’t get the door to swing clear without dragging the mat. You’ll often see this in garage service doors that lead into a kitchen that has had several layers of vinyl installed and the door scrapes the vinyl.
So what do you guys think?
Replies
Yes. Wish more entry's were installed up from the subfloor, no matter what goes in for the finish. There's a high limit however as most good entry doors have a decent threshold.
Then there's the wheel chair accesibility issue to consider.
And the even head casings in a room with alot of doors and windows in a line or close by for easy visual registration.
Seems no matter what you do, there's always a reason why you shouldn't have.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
" we install 3/4" hardwood up to a door, we are required to leave a 3/4" gap between it and the sill"
required by who????
The expansion space for 3/4" hardwood is 3/4". This is from the manufacturer on down to NOFMA and all instructions. It's not just me making it up!
I think it's a copout from a sub that wants it all his own way. Easy for you but a life-long trip hazard for the HO. And a nice easy path for moisture from outside to wick in.
"A bonus is the fact that alot of people want a walk-off mat inside the door." Never had anyone ask me for that, you're trying to justify this practice.
I have to admit I'm alittle offended by your comments. I'm trying to broaden some ideas and get some guys to consider what we subs get to deal with. I would welcome another option if you have a good/feasible one.
At the end of the day it's the HO that is paying and deserves a sound product. All the trades should be working toward delivering a safe, durable product to the end consumer. Your original post makes it sound like you're going for a nice clean, fast solution that's good for floorlayer profitability, and then trying to justify it.
If the whole door is jacked up 7/8" then there will be a sizeable gap under the door that is an open invite for cold air and moisture penetration.
I might have misunderstood your post, so perhaps a picture or diagram would help clarify matters. For now, a pan is still the best solution I've seen.
Lignum est bonum.
As I read it, he wants to put the 7/8" piece alongside the 3/4", for a net increase of 1/8" in the threshhold height. Pictures would help here.
-- J.S.
Wow
I thought this was a common sense thing that everyone did. I learned from a guy with 40 years building exp. and a sterling rep ( with inspectors, realtors and customers) that you always pad the subfloor up 3/4 before setting an exterior door. I've stayed in contact with a lot of people we've done houses for and I can't honestly say I've ever heard a complaint about a trip hazard. What I can tell you is that I've heard PLENTY of people that have bitched that in their house,(not by us), the damn rug bunches up everytime they open the door.
Why would padding the door up make it more apt to leak? you just wrap the pad as you would the subfloor; effectively, when you flash, you treat the 3/4 pad as you would the subfloor for that 4-1/2 inches. Once it's caulked in after install, it isn't any more apt to leak than the other way.
I will say that 3/4 gap, while it may be what the spec is from the manf. sounds pretty ridiculous.
And I think your "cop-out" comment could be construed as douchey, since I think anyone who doesn't pad their doors up is being lazy.
How's that?
Bing
Gotta disagree....I took the 3/4 pad out when I had to (for other reasons) rehang an Anderson double a while back.....the threshold assembly on those units is so tall, I would have had to use at least an inch and a quarter tall moulding to cover up the metal...mind you, I was working to a tile floor, not hardwood
I think it all depends on the threshold type, and isn't a big deal....but I stand by my earlier post re the 3/4 gap...never seen it & would never do it.....if the house is old, the finish floor runs right under the oak sill; if it's as new house w/metal+ wood adjustible sill, run the flooring as close to that as anywhere else in the room, & cover with shoe....
Shoulda clarified... Anderson swinging doors are the only ones to my recollection that we don't pad, for the reason you specified...Their threshold is already high enough, will clear a rug, etc. (having said this, I don't hear anyone complaining about their threshold height, and it's about the same as the rest WITH a 3/4 pad.)
Bing
Still & all, I don't like the idea of a 3/4 pad that stays under the door.....if it's a subsill, whether wood, stone, or concrete, I set it so it's finish height is equal to the finish height of the floor, & then there are no issues with carpet...
wango.. i don't see how you can get a good pan flash with what you describe..
and a nice piece of oak molding will take care of your problem
modern ( and old-fashioned ) doors are designed with a high sill to be set on the subfloor, in a flashing pan ( metal or membrane ), then the finish floor butts to the sill
the joint is either covered with molding or caulked
Hey... have you seen those new plastic flashing pans? Great idea, but overpriced at $20 a pop...
I could tell you stories where that $20 of insurance would have saved ten grand. I'm going to replace four french doors in a house in a couple of weeks, all exterior, all exposed. Sill pans would have eliminated or at the very least minimized the damage. Now they're in it for doors, trim, hardwood floor, and whatever is jacked inside that we can't see now. I'll be putting in pans."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
No doubt...
But, from a doing it right the first time point of view, the right thing is to build houses without exposed exterior doors - small porch roofs do wonders. Too bad nobody listens to me...
Fold one from stock with no brake and 20 bucks is a bargain.It's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
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Thanks for the tip and the floor guys take on this.
Can't say I have definite opinions one way or the other as it pertains to custom homes since it would depend on the particular door, home owners preference, type of flooring, and simply what would look "right" given the situation. Older clients would probably be the least likely to enjoy a higher threshold, while the indoor rug crowd would love it.
I don't think sealing a spacer under a factory prehung is that much of an issue if done with a little forethought.
More than once when working off a blank check for a "best solution" door install next to hardwood my solution is to build a custom threshold, usually ipe, that provides a graceful transition from floor to outdoor. This is so often viewed as taboo and shouldn't be. I also don't buy the argument that wood thresholds won't last and thus is short changing the client. If the client is aware that maintenance is required and they agree that the look is more important than saving a few bucks I see nothing wrong with it. Without this tradeoff log homes wouldn't exist. Custom homes don't necessarily need to be low maintenance. If anything our high end clients are the most able to keep up with maintenance costs.
As it pertains to production door installs, I'm not in that loop and don't have an opinion, although the worse it looks the easier it is for clients to justify hiring us to rip it out and rebuild.
:-)
PS As for the 3/4" gap, that does sound a little on the loose side, but it's understandable that flooring organizations have to state an allowance that works for all areas with all types of moisture variations. Also, a water leak has buckled many floors that would probably lay flat if there were enough expansion room--heck maybe that's 3/4".
At least in the higher altitude areas of the rocky mountain region, our wood moisture content is quite stable across the seasons, varying only a few percent, as is the movement in wood floors. Since many (most) installers are laying down floors that are still loosing water (shrinking) the multitude of small gaps that develop will provide a sizable cushion for expansion. Installing wood floors tight up against immovable objects is common here and I have yet to see any damage.
You said most installers are laying down wood that is still shrinking, that is the opposite of the problem. We get our wood with a 6-8% moisture content and then need to bring it into a house that is still drying out from wood, mud,primer and paint. NO! this is the wrong time to bring wood in. At worst each 2 1/4" board/row will swell .03". However after only 25 rows (56") that would equate to 3/4" of expansion.
It's not the wood shrinking so much as expanding. I have been called in to see install problems that you wouldn't believe;a second story patio door pushed right out the opening *crash*, and gym floor that raised up 17" and was still intact due to the finish that you could crawl under, I have had to answer these questions hundreds of times at HD and it concerns me that alot of the previous replies show just how naive the GC/HO are. I use the Mr. Goodwrench saying alot; "You can pay me now, or pay me twice as much later". Often waiting just one week can make a huge difference. Ultimately what we need is to get the home at 'living conditions', (the moisture levels at which the house will constantly be used at. This means dehumidifiers as well as whole house humidifiers. If we can do that, THEN we won't need such a large expansion gap!