I just did a face lift on a house for a realtor. The house had significant ant and termite damage which was only partiallly evident when I was submitting my estimate. I estimated for R&R of 1 3/4 square of lap siding but ended up replacing right at 3 square. I have pictures and notes along with e-mails relating to the extra work. I submitted my last bill and the realtor shorted me the extra labor for hanging the extra square of siding. When the word lien popped up, he threatened to take everything I have (which is laughably little at this time) and to follow me through any jobs I might get to collect on a lawsuit he thinks he’d win. I should add I wasn’t working with a contract but instead, just the estimate which went through various additions of work through the project. There was no way to know just how extensive the damage was until actually getting into it so I wasn’t comfortable putting a hard figure on it. I was extremely fair in what I charged yet have raised his ire over the discrepancy. Anyway, I’m mulling my options right now, any of these or maybe something else suggested here…
A- I file a lien and let his lawyer eat up 10 times what I was charging him above the estimated cost and put myself at questionable risk of what might come about.
B- I chaulk it up to experience even though I need every dime I can get right now.
C- I report un-permitted work which is obviously sub code and let the county dogs eat his lunch.
We’re only talking $120 here and not thousands so… Just curious what the take is from everyone. It just really pisses me off… but I’d rather have a $120 lesson than one a lot bigger so am asking for input here.
Replies
B
Normally, yeah, but this guy is bluffung and playing games. I'd enjoy playing on the other side of the tanle from a jerk like this just to keep him honest for a change
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We're talking $120 here. This one falls into the tuition category. It costs me $120 just to turn off my alarm clock in the morning, and another $120 if I want to find my slippers.
Filing the lien will cost some money (about $50 here) and in and of itself it does nothing. He would be risking possible action by the realtor or whoever the actual player is. Actually perfecting a lien costs thousands, which you already know. Small claims has a set of costs as well, and he might win a judgement for the amount, or for half, which he then has to collect.
This one is all about having a tightly worded, signed contract, with change orders as the work progresses and the extent of the problem becomes evident. Contracting 101. My guess is that as soon as he walks from the $120, the realtor will call with another job. I guess in Contracting 205 we learn to be highly suspicious of realtors and flippers, but that's another story.
I have a large and gory siding and framing repair job coming up. It's T&M on the 'discovery phase', with a fixed price to be quoted after 100% of the demo is complete and the extent of the horror is known.
on the other side of that arguenment ( with all your good and reasoinable points) is that I wouldn't invest the time to write a ontract for such a small job
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Hmmm.... I suppose a lot of guys wouldn't, but I would. I add some office hours to every estimate to cover the time spent looking at the job, estimating, talking to the owner, writing the contract, writing the invoice, etc. Not less than 5-6 hours for a small job. Unless I know you, and then we can make a handshake deal, but I still charge for time to do the looking and billing.
"I should add I wasn't working with a contract but instead, just the estimate which went through various additions of work through the project. "
Who said that you did not have a contract?
Sounds like you have one when you made the offer and he accepted.
Now does that estimate say anything about the possibility of other unseen damage?
" I have pictures and notes along with e-mails relating to the extra work. "
Was the emails sent as the problems where found. And he made no object at the time to the extra work?
" I submitted my last bill and the realtor shorted me the extra labor for hanging the extra square of siding. "
But he paided for the exta materials?
Without any hint of legal background or knowledge of any laws in your state about contracting, etc, it sounds to me like he was notified and accepted the changes in scope.
"C- I report un-permitted work which is obviously sub code and let the county dogs eat his lunch."
What un-permitted, sub code work? What is your liability in that?
"A- I file a lien and let his lawyer eat up 10 times what I was charging him above the estimated cost and put myself at questionable risk of what might come about."
Have no idea of what is required in your state for pre and post notifications. But I am assuming that he wants to flip this. A lien filing would get his attention quickly.
" A lien filing would get his attention quickly."sounds like just the mention of it got his attention!
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The estimate is a very concise listing of basic jobs which I wrote up to give the scope of what I was doing. I specified 1 3/4 square on the estimate in parentheses, also a $ allowance for another room which I actually only claimed a portion of. The rest was knocked off the original estimate. He handled all the materials and rather poorly at that. It took a week just to get the siding out here. He couldn't pick up the right plumbing parts yet wouldn't say, "here's $50, get what you need and give me the receipts". Plus I was dealing with his trainee who was pretty inept in conveying information accurately to her boss, the guy I have the problem with.
Yes, he's a flipper. Got my lesson, huh! The unpermitted work was done about 6 months ago by the previous homeowner and has such things as a 2" x 6" framed floor spanning about 15'. It literally feels like a trampoline in that room. Plus he wired it. I just thought if Mr Flipper wanted to entertain the idea of having that work ripped out to bring everything up to code, well, you get the gist of it. I had nothing to do with the work but did notify Miss Trainee about it along with a potential fix. They didn't want to spend the money.
My suspicion is his bark is to scare me off from following through with a lien that his lawyer, if he's anything at all, would say to simply send a check to me and forget it. I really won't think twice about laughing my way out of another job for a realtor if this is how they want to handle business. Incidentally, his trainee asked me if I wanted more work from them...
If you're going to walk away (i.e. not go for the owed cash), then zap him with a call to bylaw enforcement for the non-code work; might as well get even.
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Phill Giles<!----><!---->
The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->
I agree! I'm tired of hearing about good contractors getting screwed. You did right by the guy by showing him the problems when they presented themselves.
He wanted you to fix the extras, just didn't want to pay you for them. Don't get mad get even.
just my two cents...
I guess I can save the tuition. I sent an e-mail with a single question asking if they were aware what results when a non permitted job is discovered by the local building codes enforcement office. Three days later I had a check in the mail for the balance so it's now a done deal. Using the word lien got his attention but I would have loved to have been in his office when his assistant brought him the news of what would happen. Just thought an update was appropriate... Thanks all for taking the time to contribute and answer my questions. Jerry
I sent an e-mail with a single question asking if they were aware what results when a non permitted job is discovered
Yee haw ! Score one for the contractor =) It would have been priceless to be a fly on the wall when he read that email.
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lien and small claimscourt.
He has ethics clauses in his license to protect
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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Excellence is its own reward!
I half agree with David & half with Piffin.
"C" is not an acceptable answer. That would be pretty rotten, not because of the work being under code but because it would only come up when you're trying to get "even".
I think the real answer comes from what kind of documentation you have backing you up. Not necessarily from a legal point of view, but more from a reasonable person stand point.
If your "estimate" states clearly that it is only an estimate and the total bill could be higher, or if the emails clearly indicated that he would have to pay more for the termite damage I think you should press on to get paid.
For the future- don't ever work without a contract! It doesn't have to be complex and filled with legalese (although if you want it to stand up in court it may have to), the most important thing is to be clear with your customers what they are getting for what they are paying. You may have been able to elude the problems you currently have with one sentence stating that "all unseen damage of the existing structure is not covered and approval will be sought prior to commencement of repairs of unseen damage).
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I appreciate your comments and advice (as I do everyone's who's piped up) and yes, I'll have another tuition payment to show on my taxes I guess. I discussed the situation about knowing more after tear off but like I said in my other post, it was going through his trainee who wouldn't know a packing nut from a peanut. They were responsible for materials and were behind schedule the entire project then breathing down my back to get it done yesterday once the materials showed up. They guy's been a pain in the a$$ the whole way through and it kind of seems like this might just be his hobby.
They were responsible for materials and were behind schedule the entire project then breathing down my back to get it done yesterday once the materials showed up.
Did they ever tell you to "be there" at a certain time and were you?
Did they ever tell you to work till a certain time and did you?
If the answer to those 2x2 questions is "Yes," then you're an employee. Call the labor board.
If you also billed by the hour, then "you're in like Flynn."SamT
It takes more than that.While they where supplying the materials it appears that he was telling them materials where needed and what work was needed.
Worth looking into.
SamT
As pointed out, it is almost certain you have a contract ("K"): an agreement to perform work for pay - a K doesn't have to be in writing (in many cases) and doesn't have to use magic words.
Were to to go to a court, the court would look at the available evidence to determine what the terms of the K (technically, a quasi-contract) were, which would mean looking at anything in writing (the emails) and deciding who said what to whom.
For the $$ involved, tough call as to what to do.
Is this a house he's listing? Is he a flipper?
Perhaps a talk with his broker, who holds a lot of power.
But the devil is in the details of the emails, etc.
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He is the broker. Dumb luck. I'd really just rather have the little money he owes me than any of the options on that list. $120 means a helluva lot more to me right now that it does to him and he's just being stupid about it.
Try to reason with him one more time. If that doesnt work threaten him with the lein or whatever you think will work. If that doesnt work you are probably out of luck unless you want to take the law into your own hands. You will never get 120$ through legal channels without it costing you more than that. He knows that.
that is what he's counting on and why calling his bluff will work
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Never .... ever work for a realtor.
All they want is cheap and fast.... doing it right is not an option.
For a $120, I'd chalk it up to a lesson learned.
The money is gone, it's time to start thinking about how you are going to make the next $120.
We change the course of history,
everyday people like you and me
Sorry you're getting hosed, Jerry.
The realtor has one intention and that's to sell the house for maximum yield for himself.
Fill out the lien paperwork and also fill out a lien release and take both to him for another conversation. Maybe he'll start thinking like a professional when he sees the lien and your close to filing it. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't think you'll have to perfect the lien since just filing will cause a problem at sale closing.
John
"Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't think you'll have to perfect the lien since just filing will cause a problem at sale closing. "
It will cause a problem at the closing but that is a problem that can be made to go away by posting a bond for the amount of the lien. For a $120 lien on a property I was purchasing I wouldn't give it a second thought, especially if the seller told me that a rip off artist of a contractor was trying to hold him up for extras.
Homewright- You will just have to pay the tuition. It is simply not worth any more of your time and energy. Spend that time and energy finding good customers to work for, those who will pay gladly and will appreciate that they have found an honest conscientious tradesman. Over time you will find it easier to ferret out poor customers.
One great way to do this is to estimate high and bill low. You will establish a reputation for being high priced, thus eliminating tirekickers, and you will leave a trail of satisfied customers who paid less than they expected for a quality job. Good luck.
you gave good advice...thanks
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