Am I incorrect in my belief that if someone wants to add a new master bedroom/bath/walk-in closet suite, the per sq foot price will be higher than what it cost to build an entire house similarly trimmed out?
MikeVB
Am I incorrect in my belief that if someone wants to add a new master bedroom/bath/walk-in closet suite, the per sq foot price will be higher than what it cost to build an entire house similarly trimmed out?
MikeVB
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Replies
Yes you are incorrect. And yes, you are correct.
Need a LOT more information.
As a general rule... yes, it will cost more per square ft for an addition than for a new house of similar construction. But without the details... no set of circumstances are the same. To make the blanket statement that "all" room additions will cost more... not necessarily.
Bath, basement, kitchen, tap fees, driveway, etc will drive up the cost-per for a new build. Are we considering land cost in the mix (as land is already absorbed in a remodel, but must be considered when looking a new-build)?
Then you get into thinks like can the existing HVAC system, electrical, plumbing system be extended to the addition or do they need extensive (expensive) upgrades.And is the area easily accessible to machinery or will the foundation need to be done by hand?
kitchens and bathrooms are generally the more expensive parts of a home. you don't mention bath, but I can't imaginew building a master suite without one and you may be thinking of high end fixtures.
Then you have to add for dust protection, keeping systems alive while adding to them, demo at tie in, etc to add to costs
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, the bathroom can cost a bunch. Figure $8000 for a fully tiled shower 3' x 6' and you're at almost $450 per square feet... for those 18 feet.
dave
The bath shower I've framed and am tiling(tumbled marble 4x4) has been about eight days now w/ the framing and I probably have another 2-3 days to go.
told my helper that no customer would believe what I'd tell them it'd cost to do.
4x5 1/2....8' ceilings and and and and....its amazing how long things take even for a seasoned builder and the HO just doesn't believe it.
Be well
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
The last master bed/bath/walkin closet addition I worked (as an employee) on was bid at around 75,000 which I thought was pretty steep for 400+ sq. ft. but it turned out good and everyone was happy.
you are pretty much correct.
that's why-for ....
sq ft prices are meaningless.
just like the trade in values of a used car ... it's what ya pay in the end ... that's the important part.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Yes, my client wanted a quote for a redo of the suite.
I refused, because the design was so loose. So we designed it, and of course, the job she wanted to keep under control is much more pricey once she made all her decisions.
Like....
1 sink or 2? What kind of sink? a stainless vessel at $2k? or a simple white bowl at $100?
Simple ceramic or tumbled marble floor with mosaic?
just the shower glass decision was a choice between a framed version for about $2K or a frameless of $4K.
Tub ??? or whirlpool? Cach$ing!
Vanity simple and purchased? or custom? or modified antique?
Marble one peice whirlpool top? or tile?
Simple chome fixtures? Or more involved polished nickel?
Windows?
Tray ceiling?
and so on...
Man do the details add up!
Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Yeah, it's all as I thought. However, I'm already getting bad vibes about working for this guy after just two meetings. He and his wife are very nice people, but when I first went over he started rattling off jargon about window sizes he wanted (2 0, 6 2, blah, blah, blah) so damn fast I couldn't listen.
"I know a thing or two about construction cause I used to sell building supplies." Well, he didn't know enough to think that it made more sense to add a new master BR, bath, and closet onto the end of the house where the bedrooms are than to convert the existing garage (including raising the floor and makin a hall), moving the well tank, and then building another new garage onto the end of that.
Well, I spent 6 hours in two trips coming up with several different variations of a better way to solve their "problems." And, he couldn't seem to get past the fact that I was using $100 per square foot as a ball park figure just to easily compare amongst different footprints.
The house is brick, on a crawl space, with 9' ceilings, and 5" crown. The HVAC will not only have to serve the new 480 sq ft for the bedroom suite, but also the original screened in back porch that was enclosed a few yrs ago.
"Well, I know what Dave's building over there and what you can get for $100 per foot." I just played nice and nodded. He's only going to get one other price from a local HI relatively large business that historically is high.
Big problem is I've only been in business since last Summer and I need the work. I've been tiding myself over on the painting, repair, handyman things hoping these type jobs would start coming along. I've priced one, and now starting to price this one.
But, now I'm telling the wife that I don't know if this particular one is a very good match for my first relatively large job as a true contractor. I got the chance to look at it, because the lady works at the school where my wife is Media Specialist. She asked my wife if I could look at it.
Like many others not in business long, I don't have enough of my own historical cost data to be able to do a fairly quick and close estimate. I can ask all the subs, and look at other known costs, but as you know there are a lot of unknowns that can pop up. So, I'll spend a lot of time figuring up materials, meeting with subs, to come up with my best guess. Then bump it by maybe 20-25% to CMA.
Heck, I already gave them a free design job. I also regret making him a copy of a music CD I thought he'd really like cause he's learning to play the guitar and recently bought himself a mandolin which I also play. I took my Martin over to second meeting to show him after we quit talking shop. They half-jokingly remarked that I was really bucking to get this job. And, my honest defense that I'm just a guitar/music freak and like to share that interest with others didn't seem to land on their ears.
Well, I kinda hope I don't get it, cause I told the wife I'll get into to this and he'll inquire how many of these type jobs I've done to date. And, when I have to admit his is a first for my business, I think he'll freak. He already started asking about what subs I'd use.
I think he'd be better served to just be his own contractor on this cause I think he'd be out there in my crap every day, which I don't dig at all.
Sorry, but I had to get all that off my chest.
MikeVB
Mike..
couple things.... 1st ... you already have about 10 hours invested.. and you're not in control.. you didn't take control in the first meeting
if you can regain control , you can probably build this job.. if you can't , you should think about cutting your losses
you're posting this thread in the General category..
but before you get in too deep in this BUSINESS.. you should be learning about business..
do you read the threads in the Business folder
back to yur plight.. your inclination is to walk.. but you could use that inclination to regain control..
tell them you have enough information that you are prepared to give them a Written Proposal .. but you need to get paid to prepare it
look at this thread..
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=48240.1Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the reply. And, you're right it should have been in the BUSINESS Folder. I realized that after first posting it, didn't know if it could be moved or not.
As far as the charging for working up a proposal, I'm 99.9% sure that he'd chuckle, be polite, and say he'd just use someone else. I'll just grit my teeth, give him an estimate high enough to cover the headache factors, and see what happens.
Thanks again.
Mike VB
no problem, mike.. i lived on my wife's salary until i decided to stop investing in an expensive hobby and turned it into a business..
but let me ask you.. are you reading the Business folder ?
a lot of the things you are asking about as a start-up are discussed over and over in thereMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
on 2dthought... if you're sure he's going to chuckle and show you the door...
your solution is to invest another 10 - 20 hours in this Proposal... put a high price on it and see what happens ?
nah.. what's your time worth ? $30 / hour .... $50 / hour
so let's say $30 x 20 hours = $600...
why don't you buy some good will and give the guy a check for $600 ?
you'll be ahead of the game... you will be out the $600 but you'll still have the 20 hours to do something else with ....
or , you could use this as a training exercise in how to get paid for your ProposalsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I have to agree with Mike Smith when he says dont make the client your friend. At least not now. After business has been concluded and paid in full if you want to be friends you can. But for now keep him at arms length.
I also think the early meeting process has been tainted and needs fixing. You need to drop the bomb on this guy. I think he's been feeling you out with all this "bonding" going on.
You sound worried he may find out how much contracting experience you have and it sounds to me he is worried you may find out that is exactly what he is looking for, someone who is new in business who he can manipulate. That is very common, there are a lot of them out there.
You need to regain control or get out.
I appreciate all the advice. And, I realized after doing it that I should not have done the guitar/CD thing - and I honestly wasn't thinking while doing it that it would help me get the job. Like I said, guitars are a lifelong passion and I was just excited to share some stuff with a newbie. BIG MISTAKE - my brain yelled at me on the way home.
I already had been considering the cost-plus method in some form or fashion and just having him be billed by the subs and the suppliers. That way I don't have to worry about floating large bills and worry about him being slow in paying me.
I'm thinking I'll talk to 2-3 of the major subs, get a good solid ballpark figure together fairly quickly, and have another sit down with him. I'll propose doing the following - he'll essentially be paying me not only for carpentry/finish work that I do myself, but also as his manager of the subs.
I'll also state that my charges will include my time for design/planning work, a supervisory amount when working with subs and/or a percentage (10-15-20?).
He will set up an account or make arrangements for billing at various suppliers when he goes to pick out his fixtures, vanity, tub-shower, carpet, tile, etc. He can have them document model numbers, etc. and when I'm ready for each I'll go pick them up or have them delivered and charge him for that time, also.
I'll also state that he is responsible for getting permits and I'll charge for scheduling and walk throughs on inspections.
I'm a one man band at this point, so I don't have WC (nor can I afford it for myself at this point). So, I'll suggest that he take out an appropriate insurance policy to protect himself for the duration of the project. Cause if I have to get it, I'll just put it in my total price to him.
I think my justification to him about these terms will be that he obviously likes to be very involved, and with this system he will continuously be aware of what's going on the entire project.
Critiques?
MikeVB
When did you ever reveal, in any of your previous posts, that you have no insurance, nor any employees? Nor enough finances to fund any material purchases, or subcontractor costs?
I didn't "reveal" any of that because most of it is not accurate. I never said I didn't have the finances to buy materials and pay subs. I just was going to put the onus on him. I buy my materials for big jobs like most everyone else except perhaps a few independantly wealthly contractors (like you maybe?) - I have accounts at the lumberyard and other places. The subs I use bill me after they complete their work, and I turn around and bill the HO.
If working alone is not acceptable then someone better let John Carroll know ASAP, cause I believe he's a fairly respected builder that often does just that and even wrote a book about it.
I have GL insurance. I do not have WC, because in GA it's not required on the business owner nor employees if they do not exceed a certain minimum number. I haven't gotten it on myself, because the quote I was given on me as owner of my LLC was $25,000/yr paid upfront. If I hire employees and get it on them it's 32 cents for every dollar I pay them until my third year and w/ no claims.
I didn't mean the HO should get insurance to cover me, either. I was just going to suggest it as a good idea to protect himself as propety owner. The subs I use are all legitimate, licensed businesses with their own WC and GL.
My fantasy business was a high-end custom framing outfit consisting of me and a small handful of good employees. But, I'd have to take out a small business loan damn near big enough to start a McDonalds. I didn't want that kind of debt starting out, so I chose the work alone and sub out stuff route.
The cards seem heavily stacked against a new guy wanting to start his own construction business the legal, smart, and totally protected way. Because to do all that's required I'd have to charge so much more than all the guys out there not bothering to do it right that I'd not get much business and wouldn't be able to honor my McDonald's-sized loan.
MikeVB
Edited 3/6/2005 9:37 pm ET by MikeVB
mike.... the start up capital is not a problem.. i work with my customer's money, not mine
your problem is the same of a lot of guys... you have this pre-conceived notion of how much things are supposed to cost..
do you really think the customer has any clue of how much things are "supposed to cost"....
assuming you have the skills to build the job... your problem is getting the job and selling the job.. work on thatMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"your problem is the same of a lot of guys... you have this pre-conceived notion of how much things are supposed to cost.."
more along those lines ...
I'd guess that 3 outta 4 times I add something up and say ...
"Man, that's alot of money!"
I have to laugh at myself each time I give myself sticker shock.
I generally know how much stuff costs going in ... still surprises me usually to see it all added up and printed out in black and white.
Costs good money to play this game right ....
Jeff
even still shake my head when I can "one arm" carry out a small load of lumber that took a coupla hundred bucks outta my bank account. Or a small bag of misc parts and pieces from a quick stop at HD that just ran $150 ... Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
well.. you know... for basic estimating puroposes you carry a lot of numbers around in your head.. couple that come to mind..
1x3 furring... .07 cents / lf.... wrong !.. it's 0.15 cents /lf
or windows.. i still carry $200 an opening ..
wrong... the AVERAGE 3/0x4/6 double hung is $420..
point being... you gotta get quotes. and you better keep your mouth shut about "ballparks" unless we're talking hotdogs
when i estimate.. i plug all the numbers in....after i get quotes from my suppliers and subs..
then i add up all my labor.. adjust it for labor burden..
add everything up.. adjust for overhead... adjust for profit..
and viola ( sic ) there it is... the unbelievable number... the one i have to sell..
the one that is probably still too low...
could i hire me ?... hell no..... but, are my customers getting a good deal... you bet !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Holy Crap! I was thinking about that very quote today while I was skimcoating a cathedral ceiling. I have a pretty good handle on material costs per, I just don't do the cumluative math. Like Mike state is his post, I couldn't pay that. I am constantly getting sticker shock from my subs and suppliers and then even more shocked when the customer agrees to pay! Holy Moly!F
I hear ya, Mike. And I've been where you are. Probably so was Gene, though it seems unlikely he'd admit it. Don't worry about smartazz comments..they're par for the course. Keep asking;keep listening.My advice to you on this situation: very diplomatically explain to the client that, like his time, your time is valuable. And you must charge accordingly. Design/ cost estimating (or 'value engineering') and lining up subs is an extremely time consuming process and if the client could or would do it themselves, they wouldn't have any need for you. Therefore, they should surely understand your need to get COMPENSATED for your time. You are running a business, not a charity. NEVER hand a client a copy of a design without a check in hand. Now go be a businessman, man.Btw, where are you located?
make sure your customer understands cost +. my brother in law did a addition, orig bid was about 90k for 1500sf. finds a guy to do cost plus. my bil understands that if the bill from pumber is 10k it's going to cost him 11k. but he thinks this guy/gc is out there working basiclly for free. he understands that the 2x4s are marked up 10% and that is covering this guys wages! so anyway i'm out there at thanksgiving, and the project is in finished sheetrock. i ask whats this cost so far? i dunno he hasn't given me a bill yet. i'm like when i have a sub finish by the time the tools are loaded i've got the bill. he tells me the only comment thats been made was the gc said "i think you'll be really happy at what this is coming in at". so i find out then that this is a cost plus and we start talking and i'm trying to explain when the gc is working he's making 35 per hour?plus 10% on top of everything else. and i think the light started coming on.well it takes about another 4 months to finish ,bil gets a little crazy with extras because he's saved so much money,when the final bill hits it's in the 150k range . just make sure they know your labor is xxx + 10% also. good advice about not making friends until your done,it will do nothing but cost you time and money. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Thanks again for the comments, guys.
You're right, Mike, regarding learning to get the job and sell the job. I've realized recently that some people I've done repair work for didn't have as quality an experience as they deserved. This was because I tried to get their desires on too many little details, instead of leading them through it. I've come to realize that many customers want to be led through it and told the best way things should be done.
The not working for friends/relatives is hard when first starting out, cause often that's all the work you get early on.
I'll shut up now and try to re-read all related threads in the BUSINESS folder.
MikeVB
Mike- I am also starting up my biz.....I dont have lots n lots of experience running my own. I had my co for 2 years then the IRS dropped the hammer (completely my fault...never let your relatives do your bookkeeping!!) any ways after one year working as a super I got the my co back in "good standing" with the tax man and I am at it again.
With that in mind I would like to caution you from making the client your friend. I have made this mistake many times and am still trying to remind myself, It is business and I need to make a living that comes first.(my wife is grad student so we eat lots o popcorn) One other thing I am trying to avoid is working for relatives/friends/neighbors/ realators...and it is hard when I don't advertise and I am hungry and fighting to build a good crew to turn these down. My current stratagy is to put them direct with the subs. Keeps the subs busy me out behind the eightball and out doing the bids I really want and the ho gets a good guy or what I call a known. (unknowns scare me and I stand real close first few times)
This week I am going down to the local sm biz admin and have a sit down with a marketing specialist to see how to get the clients i want. I have never advertised and always used client word of mouth but it takes time to get is going....popcorn....lots of guys put up signage I am considering that....i did get some cards printed up finally. My bids are mostly "stick bids" and i puts in the time man...so I hate tire kickers or bid chippin....which btw...its illegal for gc's in dc area.
my experience for what its worth.
Dont burn bridges just stop using them and fly right over.
Mike Smith has brought up some excellent points. I hope you read the thread he recommended and the other thread referral within the thread. The insight was not only about proposal fees but also about client from hell scenarios.
Let's review:
You're not confident taking on a project with so many trades, at such a high dollar amount for someone who may prove to be difficult to handle/ manage. Good insight/ recognition. No, EXCELLENT insight. Knowing ones limitations is important in self-assessment.
You have already spent a great deal of time preparing an Estimate.
You have spent time developing design schemes with the client and no doubt on your own.
You are developing a good relationship with the client.
You're getting cold feet or a bad vibe from the client so your solution to remedy the situation you got yourself into is to inflate the bid and cross your fingers thast you are not awarded the project.
Reality:
Stop trying to do everything yourself. You know your limitations so get someone(s) to help you. You have had enough time, bring in a plumber or two, an electrician or two... and get them to price their portion of the job. This way your numbers will be based on experience and not wishful or ill informed thinking. Pick a day or two and schedule the trades for a walk through. Have a set of drawings for each along with a scope of work and a spec sheet. This way everyone is bidding on the same terms.
You have to take (back?) control of the project. This will instill confidence in you of the client. If you can't get it back, politely decline to go further with the client and walk away without looking back. He won't like handing the reigns to you - initially - but think of that as a test. Grab them and proceed.
Privately, for your own use, come up with a list of things that need to be done in preparing a Proposal. (Don't even think of preparing an Estimate. They are worthless.) Once you come up with a conclusive list you will better understand why you need to charge for it. This is not an ordinary situation. There are no designs, specs, or terms. They need to be defined. Someone has to pay for the design in any project. You need to decide if that is going to be the client (customary) or you (not recommended).
Come up with an initial proposal defining this preparatory scope of work (assembling the Proposal) and submit that to the client with a fee. In your discussions you may want to refer to this fee as an Ernest Payment. Traditionally the ernest payment is a % of the estimated project cost/ budget, but you can ask for something like $1,500 - $3,000. This is non refundable and can be applied to the final Agreement price - as long as the Agreement price includes design fees, etc. Or you can (simpler) manage it as an independant document/ agreement. he will be free to select another GC and retain your work/ designs as they have been paid for.
Gotta go. I will finish later this afternoon.
Edit:
Regarding time already spent and job phases which need to be addressed - in any renovation:
The client - whether he/she wants to admit it or not - needs drawings, a scope of work and specifications defined for this project. Plain and simple. They may try to pursuade you that it is a simple enough and straight forward project that drawings aren't needed but the building dept WILL differ with that assessment. So should you. And in your interest to sign the project, you should not be doing this for free. That is a sure route to more clients who want/ expect/ insist on free stuff and bankruptcy, out of business, say goodninght Gracie. You have already given the PROSPECTIVE client enough free stuff. STOP NOW! There is nothing wrong with admitting to the Prospective client that in your enjoyment of help him and out of zeal of what you do, you allowed the process to progress without establishing terms. That time has come.
You have developed a "strong" relationship with the HO, however it is the wrong type of relationship. If you want more friends, join a rotary or garden club. Hec! Even come to BreakTime more often. Remind yourself - often - this is business and you are cultivating business relationships. This means you are trying to earn and make money. It sounds like you are earning it but you are not collecting/ making it. Start. You can start by redifining in your own head what this guy/ project means to you. Answer: $$$. If it doesn't pay the rent/ mortgage or buy you food you don't NEED it. Ya may want it, but ya don't need it. You are trying to start a business and promises for the future mean nothing. Example: if the HO wants you to do something for a promise that he will give you a referral/ tell his buddy to use you, forget it. Then you have to make up the money you LOST on this job with the next guy, BUT the next guy will understand that you have allready established the precedent that you do stuff in exchange for a referral sometime in the future. Get where this is going?
It ain't personal, it's business. Stop with the CD's and music lessons/ jamming. Keep reminding yourself of how much easier it is to say No to and have boundaries/ limits with a stranger than a close friend. Keep emotions, hobbies and the desire to develope intimacies with Prospective Clients out of the picture. Share a comment or passing remark to demonstrate your ability to view something from the HO's perspective but go no further. It may sound counter-intuitive but Clients like it when they are told "No." It demonstrates to them that you are not a "Yes Man" and you know and respect your own limitations. This instill confidence and good business judgement.
As for getting coldfeet:
Oh, I so totally remember those days. I was bidding a $750K job the client wanted for $350K? I got the price down to $450K but started having nightmare of what if I was off by 10%!? That's $45K!! Where was I going to find that kind money? And that was if I scaled back the scope of work properly. Talk about stress!!
Consider admiting to the HO that this is the largest project you will have led, though you have been on quite a few projects of this scale, as a tradesperson or project manager. You know how to manage the sequence and the proper working methods and results, however you have limited knowledge of pricing and sequence of payments. Therefore you are willing to share/ open your books (?) and do a cost + your time + % Proposal. You will get the project done with each of the subs submitting invoices directly to the HO - with copies sent to you by the sub. The HO pays the sub directly - UPON YOUR APPROVAL - and then cuts a % check to you. If you bring the project to completion within budget + add'l work not contracted to originally, you get a bonus. You ain't never going to collect on this, but the HO will look at it as your commintment to get the best pricing you can.
The upside of this type of arrangement is that the HO will feel they have a greater insight in hoiw their money is being spent/ distributed and you do not have the burden of cost overruns. Also your liability insurance costs will be lower due to no/ fewer subs on your payroll.
I hope even some of this helps. Your gut/ instincts are telling you the right things. You just don't know how to manage or process these insights. Be confident in your abilities and don't be afraid to ask for help. Don't make promises for what you cannot deliver. The construction biz in an interdependant one where all trades need to exchange information in order to survive. Ask your subs prudently for help and show your appreciation by awarding them the job if it comes through.
Good luck,
Frankie
Edited 3/6/2005 2:13 pm ET by Frankie
Edited 3/6/2005 2:32 pm ET by Frankie