Replies

1. 
   Tatezi_ | Jun 29, 2003 01:32am | #1

   I've used HomeTech since the early 90's.  At the time I thought the labor allowances per unit were ridiculous and so substituted my own labor estimates.  Material all had to be confirmed locally.

   All of these guides have to be confirmed because they are based on unit pricing instead job or stick pricing. The experience comes from using their specification descriptions, studying their assumptions.

   For example, most jobs like hanging an exterior door include setup time. But hanging a slab door in an existing opening is far more complicated than setting a pre-hung door.  I just quoted installing 3 bi-hung sets of 2 1/4" x 2'-0" x 8'-6" exterior doors in existing openings.  The client also wants me to install new interlock weather-stripping on the door but use the old interlock on the jamb.  Well, first thing you have to do is rabbet the door so as not to damage the jamb interlock metal. Then you have to hang it, re-rabbeting as you go along.  The tool list for this kind of job is huge. HomeTech doesn't touch it.

   With HomeTech if they have a separate category for a part of the job you have to hunt down that category.  Most prices include setup.  Cleanup, however, is listed separately.  In some cases, such as haulage the specification will include distance from the construction area.  Still you have to get individual bids for dumpsters and you have to estimate landfill trips. 

   I found the projects in the front of the book useful.  You get an idea of how they think.  I'd look at a project, study the specification then check out how it breaks down in the descriptions that are quoted separately in the body of the book.

   Finally, experience is built on this day - and it's got to be recorded. You have to check the present with past data.  Objectivity is hard to achieve here but it's the only way to fend off the hopelessness of hanging in till the end on an underpriced job.  I carry a used Toshiba notebook I bought for about $450 and equipped with Microsoft Works 7.0.  I taught myself to record tasks and costs in the database.  You get some real Aha's! there.

   Most customers appreciate that they can trust you to do a good job.  Many of them will cheerfully let you underprice the job, contract with you then hold you to the highest standards.  Better you go Cost+or overprice the job. 

1. 
   dlb | Jun 29, 2003 05:07am | #2

   Thanks for the input. You are correct in that it is difficult to "hunt down" various jobs. Maybe that situation is overcome by understanding the book(s). Do you think that prices change often enough to warrant publication 4x/year?  Have you tried any other estimating techniques? Read any good books on estimating lately?

   Thanks again,

   dlb

   .

1. 
   Tatezi_ | Jun 29, 2003 08:37pm | #4

   Dale,

   I haven't read much lately.  The public library used to be a good source of job descriptions.  I worked with an electrician once who cajoled and pushed me to update my business by creating a business plan with real descriptions and real limitations as to what kind of work I would perform and at what skill level and how much it would cost and how much the cost would add value to the home.  Look at it like this, a business plan is a statement of who you are right now.  A strategy evolves from a clear idea of what you're doing, why and so on.  Most people know how to get started crossing a bridge to the other side, few take into consideration what they want to leave behind or what to do along the way, many have a pretty good idea of where they want to go.  It's that middle state on the bridge that's the killer.

   What does this have to do with estimating?  What are you doing? Who are you? What are your resources: skill, money, equipment, good subs, experience, talent, energy level, commitment? Got to be specific.

   Estimating also includes a way to say "No".  If you're overwhelmed with work and there are these huge bags under your eyes as you try to keep your promises and still project an image of honesty, skill and reliability. You may be charging too little and you may be not marking  your material up enough.  Estimating becomes the outward element that aims you at putting your show on the road and also keeps you motivated when the going gets tough.  You have to have some plan of how this fits into the overall scheme of things even if you use it to project the amount of time you need to work to simply pay the bills as you acquire experience and skills.  And you have to do this right now while you're feeling overwhelmed.  An electrician buddy, who saw I was killing myself for pennies, pushed me hard to raise my labor rate and to increase my markup just at my most exhausted and most frightened moment.  If he were still alive I'd give you his phone number.

   I never estimate on the job.  People are always asking "How much would it cost ...? You probably already know the drill.  My White Knight mounts up so emotional pressure is hard for me to deal with, especially if I'm saving a Damsel in Distress.If I quote with some idea of a real profit based on the value of my work (not the value of my labor) I get into all this stress about guilt.  Better to go home with a handful of good notes.

   I confess I get excited when I meet new people and look at new work.  I'm like a little boy at Christmas: Oh, Ah, Gee, fun, fun,fun.  Day by day, after the job starts, I sometimes find my little boy (who incidentally also chose this line of work) was just a tad too optimistic or he wants to please Mommy or he wants to Show Dad What a Big Boy he is.  Then there's the White Knight stuff, and the John Wayne stuff if the lady is good looking and mostly they are and mostly their husbands are paying for all this but she's writing the check and she just kind of left those top three buttons on her blouse open AND she's my personal nomination to win the Michelle Pfeifer Look Alike Contest hands down... 

   Going into peoples homes is not going home.  This is my hardest lesson and the one I struggle with today when I price work.

   If you're a one-man operation you're probably cursed with what I call "brain strain." Over time you find you're projecting your assumptions into every situation like some kind of door-hanging template.  I love tools so much I call them "toys". I also assumed every helper, every carpenter, every person was just itching to play with my toys.  Wrong - they drop them off roofs, run over them, steal them, they pawn them.  And here's the strain: this very enthusiasm for the work and for the "toys" that go with it is what drives your ambition to get out of bed every morning, to work long hours, to get dirty, to endure injury, to create an estimate (we're carpenters not pencil pushers), to live with a lousy outcome on an estimate and move onto the next job with optimism and excitement your customer picks up on.

   Here's a killer assumption that may just cost me about $2500.  In 25 years I had never been stiffed by a customer. Never.  Recently a woman in one of our more upper class parts of town called me to repair a rotten door and jamb, and to strip and refinish a front door (this is a specialty of mine).  My habit was to ballpark quote these small jobs, sign them with my terms of work and just deliver the contract.  All the work was on Cost+ anyway.  Well, she was just a tad obsessive-compulsive, and she rarely dressed or left the house (maybe never?) and she hung over me so close when I did inside work I could hear the air whistling through her nose, AND she was good-looking.  There was a pretty good amount of " Brad, while you're here..." I tallied it all up and it came to just a little over $2500 which was way past the original $500 ballpark quote. 

   "Whoa! Hey!, said she, this is way past what we contracted for.  Take the $500 or take nothing."

   "But, but,but... (like that I blubbered, having never dealt with someone so totally, utterly unreasonable, paranoia and just plain nuts - like a thief).

   I filed a claim.  She wouldn't come out of the house when the deputy showed up with the magistrate's summons.  I hired a process server.  He just called back.  Next we're setting a new court date so I can publish a summons, leave a message on her answer machine that I can record.

   Since I did not get her signature on a contract my attorney says it's a crap shoot as to whether I collect even if I succeed in getting her into court.

   After writing all this I'm aware of just how complicated estimating can be for a one-man operation.  If you're not on your own it may be best to sign on with a remodeler who can get you some estimating experience.  We have a local remodeler whose salesmen (6-8) mark everything up 200% just to cover contingencies.  And he still gets pretty good jobs.

   I'd like to say the books will give you the depth you need.  In terms of specifications they're a reliable source.  Unless you get training with a large firm who is willing to bring you along you're pretty much on your own.  You got to have your own database covering all kinds of conditions.  Problem is, this doesn't translate to anyone else very well since it's so dependent on your state of expertise on many levels.

   You're hearing 25 years experience speaking.  But these are my experiences, not yours.  I like it that you're questioning everything - so put that in the positive column. And you're reading - another plus mark.  And you're still at it after two years - a major plus.  This estimating business isn't a crap shoot.  I'm doing more and more Cost + work at $55.00 hour and 50% markup on material with a pretty good ballpark quote: nothing firm, nothing locked in, signed and collectable. 

   Good luck, let me know how it's going.

   Brad

1. 
   dlb | Jul 04, 2003 02:10am | #5

   Brad,

   Thanks for the information - it was a big help; espcially the two statements about

   "Going into peoples homes is not going home.  This is my hardest lesson and the one I struggle with today when I price work.

   and

   "My White Knight mounts up so emotional pressure is hard for me to deal with, especially if I'm saving a Damsel in Distress."

   Both of those items kill me in the area of estimating.  I am improving but I have a very long way to go. I remember, probably much like you, when gas prices were $.27 per gallon and now I think, "How can that job, what ever it is, cost so durn much? I can't charge that kind of money! Surely I can do it for less.

   But,  well I have to go. Neighbors. Later and thanks,

   dlb

   .

1. 
   silver77 | Jul 04, 2003 02:28am | #6

   Couple of good books I didn't hear mentioned:

   Running a Successful Construction Co. by David Gertstel-highly recommended

   Working at Woodworking by Jim Toplin-highly recommended

   Both excellent,cover estimating as well as lots of other things...

   cheers,

   silver

2. 
   NOTRIX1 | Jun 29, 2003 05:41am | #3

   HI,

   I'm just starting to bid some small jobs for the GC I work for so I got RS Means "Residential Repair and Remodeling Costs". I got the first job I bid for it and the HO said I came in right in the middle of 2 other bids. I got the job because I said I'd work Saturday.

   Most of the pricing I've seen looks pretty reasonable. This particular guide is by no means complete so there's some figuring to do.

   I like it's format and find it easy to look things up. At $38 it was a good place to start.

   HTH

   N