I read with interest the exchanges in “estimating houses” thread. We are getting ready to remodel a 1948 cape in the DC area and so far have been given estimates from $200 to $300/sf. Granted, we don’t have a blueprint yet but have explained in detail what we would like to do. We have gone ahead and hired an architect to prepare drawings for bids, knowing that we don’t have to follow through if the price is too high. Is $200 – $300/sf reasonable? It scares us to think it could cost twice what we originally paid for the house to simply add more space. We are willing to put in a lot of sweat equity if necessary to keep the cost down, but are contractors willing to work with homeowners in this way or is that just in the fantasy world of This Old House?
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Listeners write in about haunted pipes and building-science tomes, and they ask questions about roof venting and roof leaks.
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
That sounds like a lot on the surface - But what are you adding on? Just a bedroom? Or a bathroom, kitchen, or ??? What kind of finishes and trim? an addition over a basement, crawlspace, or on a slab? What kind of exterior finishes? Vinyl siding, stucco, or brick? One or 2 story addition? (You get the idea)
No way to tell without a heck of a lot more info. the people who gave you the ballpark estimates probably were guessing high without having details and prints to work from.
I only know one contractor who encourages owner assistance. But he's a "weekend warrior", not a full time general. I'd be surprised if you find anyone to do that with you.
Redneck Extraordinaire
You're right, with out all the specifics it is difficult to give an accurate estimate. We were talking about adding a full second story - just bedroom space - and on a 33 x 24 house we were told it would run about $200,000, and that is without any differentiation of space. We hope that through the architect, who has our budget numbers, we will be able to get what we want or close to it even if it has to be done in phases.
Thank you for your feedback.
Thank you all for your sage advice. We would like to think that we can do more than clean and load a dumpster but at least now we are going into it knowing builders' perspectives on sweat equity. We certainly don't want to get in the way!
I hope that we end up with the house of our dreams and not in the poor house. Stay tuned.
My guess is that the subs on This Old House are well compensated to work with the homeowners.
I just agreed to remodel a ranch home for a pair of client I had worked with before. They first did the right thing and hired the contractor, me. Then, we decided on the program. What is the outcome? In this case, a 18x20 master bedroom addition, remodel the kitchen, master bath, new hardwood through-out, tons of granite, moldings and a dozen other things...."while we're at it" Then we agreed on a budget.
Then we hired an Architect.
And no were did we discuss pricing by the square foot.
So, if you wish to spend x amount of money, I would express that now.......before your Architect gets carried away.....with you aboard.
The 3 absolutes: Program: What do want to do? Budget: How much? Quality: what level?
Good luck and keep us posted
I have had numerous customers ask me what they can do to keep the cost down. I have offered to let several of them load the dumpster. I haven't had the first taker yet.
gl
Work hard, play hard, sleep hard, wear glasses if you need 'em.
I once had an addition for a couple who wanted my partner and I to do the foundation, they would do the subfloor and walls and we would do the roof (a complex and heavy timberframe). We had other jobs so it seemed like a good idea at the time and they spoke enough of the language that we were comfortable about them having the walls up so we could come back, do the roof structure and close in before winter.
They made quite a mess of it and I'm sure it cost them money saved to have us redo. And winter was upon us long before getting closed in.
On the other hand, I've had some good experiences with homeowners helping but it's usually because of a good chemistry between the client and I OR the sweat equity portions are agreed to in the contract and they're of a nature that's not going to hold me up, (like interior painting) and isn't going to be a material warrantee issue for me later.
If given a choice, I prefer to relegate the homeowner to the dumpster detail and picking up nails. (No insult intended).
I can safely say, I think, that the best way a homeowner can save money with a competent builder is to provide clear instructions and expectations and then get out of the way.
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a piece of chalk and cut it with an axe.
Hi,
I agree with the three constants : Size or scope of the project, Quality level, & Cost. I also believe that the customer can control only two of these at any given time, which drives the results of the leftover factor. Don't know who would estimate such a thing without knowing the details, and be remotely accurate. As for sweat equity, I've had some good experiences, but the homeowner must be commited. Things often require much more effort , than they seem. Particularly to someone with limited experience. It is often better to work some overtime on your job, and pay someone professional to do the work. Efficiency is the key. Sweat equity can be very rewarding, or extremely exhausting. Best of luck.
Brudoggie
A fine point to remember is an estimate is just that, an estimate. A bid on the other hand is a detailed, time consuming process of knowing what must be done with what materials in what time frame and in what category of quality. People have asked me for estimates thinking it was a bid but once all the homework was done, balked at the price because I didn't 'guess' correctly when initial numbers were discussed. Since that time, I 'highball' the estimate so I know I can come in under that amount for a bid price. It's always easier to come down in price than go up (imho) so that's how I do it now. If you have a number in mind, tell that to your architect and your contractor to see what you can get for that price then haggle the details for the final game plan. Once that plan has been established, the contract will hold both you and the contractor to those terms. You might be wise to budget in 15% to 20% for changes along the way keeping in mind what upgrades you might want along the way. In this way, you can know what your bottom line will be and likely stay within budget. Once building begins, it's amazing how many details come to mind you might not consider at the onset, thus causing you to want to tweak and change details along the way. This is what the 15-20% buffer will help with. Good luck.
You have gotten a lot of good advice here. The one point I'd like to emphasize is the 15 to 20% buffer. This is brought up in almost every good article or book that I have ever read about remodeling. It is most important on large scale projects which I consider yours to be. This is something that many contractors, however, find difficult to discuss with their customers. Lets face it how much confidence would you have in someone who said "The contract price for your project is $200,000.00, but you better put aside another $30 - $40,000.00 ~ just in case". But the reality is it's true. Now I'm not saying that you might only need 5-10% but the best client relationships i have had have been with customers who grasp this key issue.
In the past couple of years I have done a $185,000 job that ended up at $225,000 and a $225,000 one that ended up at $325,000. I still shake my head when I think about this second job. I estimate that by the time they got done with stone walls, bluestone walks, landscaping, driveway and decorating these people spent close to $500,000.00. All this on a house that they built 18 years ago. Both of these customers have given me referrals and ended up with great finished products. It helped a lot that both of them were able to afford these jobs right out of their bank accounts
Cape, you must understand that virtually every remodel project is actually a “prototype, regardless if it’s a $10K small bathroom remodel or a $1M project.†That’s right, no different from a concept car or SUV, coal mining piece of equipment or that matter a new fighting jet.
What some call “mistakes†are not mistakes, just a natural part of what occurs in building a prototype, the sometimes unavoidable trial and error. For example, an interior wall is completely framed and wired and you or your wife decide, regardless of the reason, to have it moved 6â€. Sure, specialists such as electronics, metallurgists, designers, etc., or in our industry, carpenters, decorators, masonry specialists, roof “system†and ventilations “system†specialists, yet all of the experience of those specialists both individually and combined, goes just so far when working together on a “prototypeâ€.
To the above, throw in the owner(s) who are flipping the total bill yet generally have no clue as to Construction Management and the tremendous responsibilities included, overly optimistic time frames and how far a buck will go, and it’s surprising we still end up with satisfied clients.
The challenge is dauntless.
That is why the wise remodeler insists that the client create a reserve of a minimum of 10%-25% over and above the monies they allocate to the project. It’s also important to remember that the industry average of “net†profits of remodelers is only around 5%, not the gobs and gobs of money the public thinks. In your anticipated project cost of $200,000, that nets about $10,000 to the remodeler - if every single thing goes well. In the building of any prototype, the costs are borne by the company or owner who initiates it, not the companies that build it, unless they really screw up badly, or are incompetent to begin with. That is exactly why cost overruns routinely occur even in industrial projects.
Try to anticipate every single thing imaginable. Visually walk thru each room, open each closet, reach for each future shelf, determine the height of each window from the floor in relation to existing or new furniture sizes, space for window covering sides to allow inches of windows from adjacent wall(s), locate each receptacle and switch, etc. And again, be smart and allow an extra 15% or more as the other guys suggested..
Planned right, and realistic, it could still be a fun adventure while delivering what you anticipate. One more thing. Whatever the contractor tells you it will take as far is number of weeks, again be realisitc and add about 20% to that as well. Prototypes you know, have their own itinerary.