I’m wondering if anyone out there has any favorite estimating books/tools. I’m just getting into the ‘bidding wars’, and would like to have some weapons that I can rely on.
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OK- yer' scarin' me...
1. Why on earth would you want to get into the "bidding wars"?
2. What types of "tools" are you looking for? Please tell me you aren't looking for a cost book to pluck pricing from.....
A little more info may be helpful.
Bob
Well,
the biddin' wars is fer crap, I know. And i most definetly am talking about a reference to help me bid, reference is the key word here. I've done it all (well, some), but unfortunately I haven't tracked time/materials/money, so i do NEED some help, and the manuals do seem to have a more systematic approach than my gut, so thats the question I'm putting out there, until i can come up with my personal system, does anyone have a favorite manual and why?
I've written an estimating manual of my own, but it's cost me thousands of dollars over the years, and you'll most likely have to write your own too...lol
Well, personally, I hate estimating cost books, because the costs aren't based on your own data. But if you really want to use one, the most realistic one I've found to date (at least for NJ costs) is Craftsman's National Insurance Repair and Renovation book. It's broken down into logical work items, whereas the MEans books follow the CSI divisions, whihc don't always make sense relative to how a building actually gets built.
If you're going to use the book, let me make a few recommendations:
1. READ THE FRONT!! Make sure you understand what is, and what isn't included in the costs- OH&P, tax, WC insurance, etc.
2. Check the productivity rates to be sure they make sense. If you know you can frame 20 LF of wall in an hour, and the book says 30 LF, that's a trigger that all of their framing rates may be too aggressive.
3. As you get jobs, track your own time, and use these figures to assemble your own book. As Dunc alluded, it's a lot of work, but very valuable.
Best of luck as you go into battle.....
Bob
1. Cut the guy some slack...he's a newbie here.
2. I agree on the Craftsman books, I have the Natl Renovation & Insurance book and the Natl Construction Estimator. Both come with a cd that makes it easy to start developing an estimate. It might be wrong, but it's consistent and it's organized and it's a good start.
3. Means has a book for assembly costs which attempt to include all pertinent items. For an interior wall, it includes studs, sheetrock, taping, paint, base, etc.
4. As to the disparity in the amount of wall that you can frame in an hour (for example), check the crew size associated with that task. You might have a crew of two that can do 20 lf/hr but the book may have a crew of three, and there's your 50% deviation. Also, they may not include the time required to get materials to the work area, clean up time, etc.
5. If you don't want to spoend the money for the book, stop by the Commercial Sales desk at your local Home Depot and ask for a cd of their ProBook. It has an estimating program built in that is copied from Craftsman. The material prices are lifted from the HD inventory, and thus are a little suspect as well as limited. The program has the ability to connect to the HD site and download current prices, but I think it alkways omits lumber due to 'market fluctuations'.
Do it right, or do it twice.
ELCID-
I apologize if I came off harshly- that wasn't my intent.
In my line of work, I see a lot of guys who grab a cost book, and just go right at it, pricing away with the numbers that are printed. My intent was simply to ensure that he doesn't fall into that trap. As you know, you've got to make sure the numbers are right for YOUR situation- they aren't a be-all, end-all for pricing.
Regards,
Bob
No offense taken, and none intended from me to you either. Youy're right about folks blindly using the books, and wondering why it doesn't work. But this is a frequent, and legitimate, question from folks trying to go off on their own, etc. And the answer from the experienced contractors is almost always the same...there is no book or program, you have to use experience. That's true, except that if you have no experience selling a job, how do you start? Maybe he/she is an experienced craftsman who has never had to sell a job, so the construction skills are in place but they don't want to take a bath on the job. These books (Craftsman, Means, etc) are a starting point that won't be too far wrong. Might be high, might be low, but it's a place to start. The trick is to use the book, apply the correction factors that you know (actual material prices, your own output levels, special job conditions), and then create your own spreadsheet for future jobs.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Yup, thats me-I know how to do it but not how to sell it. Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it and it's great to have this resource to tap into. I've really started to realize how dumb business-wise I am, and it's a good feeling to have some more experienced people to go to, thanks again, and I'll be getting the Craftsman book just as a starting point.
fyi
I went to the Craftsman website, and they have a trial version which I'm downloading for free right now
You might want to go to a good bookstore and look at their selection. (Around here, Borders has a better selection than Barnes & Noble, or is it the other way?) May have to visit more than one store. Point is, look at the different books. Means is probablky the leader, but they are expensive. They also have the biggest variety. Craftsman is pretty good, and less expensive. I bought a Dodge, and it sux. Temporarily ignore the titles and see which has the better content for you. If you're into new construction, see what each has to say about building an interior wall, for example. Or whatever your trade is. If you're into remodeling, pick something that you know a little about, and use the book to cost it. You may find that one book seems more reasonable or accurate than the others.
Then fire up Excel and start building your own spreadsheet.
Do it right, or do it twice.
I use the book for "handyman" from HomeTech for small jobs. They also make other books for larger jobs.....however I use the Craftsman cd for bigger jobs. I know that most contractors don't like HD and I'm one of them.........however, you can get the ProBook on CD and use it with the Craftsman CD to get up-to-date prices on materials........on the internet, from your local HD. It's kinda nice, 'cause when you're at home, working on a quote, and you have no idea how much something costs..... you just go online and check the local HD......used it quite a few times.
Hope this helps!
jocobe
http://www.hometechonline.com/
http://www.craftsman-book.com/
Edited 4/1/2003 8:02:52 PM ET by JOCOBE
Edited 4/1/2003 8:04:01 PM ET by JOCOBE
What was is that you didn't like about the Dodge book? Was is the format, the pricing, or what? I saw one recently (they call them Sweet's now), and was considering buying it just for the CD. Did yours come with the CD? How's the software? Just curious before I drop $80 for a book to use just for check numbers.
Bob
I've got an older Dodge book and if I remember right, it seemed more set for commercial and large jobs. I could never get my head around it. wouldn't say it suked but it wasn't for me. never really used it..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin-
Are you going to Providence for the JLC show this weekend? I'll be there Saturday if you're going to be around.
And as far as "getting your head around" the Dodge book, from what some of the guys around here have to say, your head's pretty big- so I can see where that would be a problem.....lol. Just going by what they told me...............
Bob
Never been too big to fit inside my hat though. ;)
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Ok, went and found the book. Sweets Unit Cost Guide 2002 with 14,000 component costs in CSI format, and geographical cost modifiers. $79.95. When I first loaded it, all I found was a huge data base that didn't seem to work. So I reloaded it just now on a different pc, with different results. Peronally, I like the CSI format, or at least I'm comfortable with it. I think part of what I did wrong the first time was to click on the 'disable macros, possible virus' pop-up button. This time I figured it was a purchased cd, so the chances of a virus were slim. There is absolutely zero information in the book about using the cd, which has an estimating program along with the contents of the book. You can choose the state or province, and the 3 number zip code to regionalize the numbers, and you can select with or without oh&p, but there is no where to set the tax rates or oh&p values.
Under section 6 wood, there are several lines for wood wall framing (diff spacing and stud sizes) but all the quantities are in sf. (2x4 @ 16"=$1.11/sf). Not too bad. Then under floor joists, the quantities are also for sf. (2x10 @ 16"=$1.84/sf) Same for rafters. Sf of what? Floor area? Turn to wood decks, and there are several materials, but treated syp is not one of them. They do have 'Plank, pine' with two lines: 3" and 4"...inches of what?
Under shingles, there are a couple of lines, including 'composition 325 lb/sq' ($258.31/sq) and 'composition, 500 lb/sq' ($404.80/sq). Is that standard and architectural grade?
Anyway, it looks like a lot of data, but the presentation is lacking...the other books are much easier to use. I have enough trouble putting together an estimate, I don't need to add the confusion and thinking needed for an awkward program. Send me your address and I'll put the book and cd in the mail.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Edited 4/1/2003 11:23:31 PM ET by ELCID72
Got an email from Bob with his address asking for the book. It was time-stamped at a few minutes past 4 in the morning. Obviously he's working way too hard on estimates :)Do it right, or do it twice.
You caught me....lol.
OK- got the book in the mail today- many thanks. Two things at first glance:
1. The numbers are all over the place- some work without even using the 1.4 multiplier for NJ, some are screamin' low even with the multiplier, and some are insanely high even without the multiplier. Typical I guess- though Means is a LITTLE better, and Craftsman's Renovation book is still my favorite.
2. The CD makes a better frisbee than an estimating tool. No instructions- but so painfully simple you don't need any. Unfortunately, they put ALL the data in one 40MB file, and you can only access one line at a time- the rest is on a hidden worksheet (working on crackin' than one...lol). It'd take me 10 times longer to do an estimate using that program than it would to just input the data.
Don't think I'm not grateful- there are some items in the book that are very useful. I'll be dropping the 10-spot in the mail tomorrow....
Bob
Glad to hear we agree that it's not a useful book. I think if you load the cd and click on the loading option to disable the macros, all the lines are visible. But then I think it might make other parts not work right.
See if this is right: I did a 3 item test estimate, then went to print it, and the pop-up window on the screen said "now printing page 1 of 249" and sure enough it startted printing multiple pages until I went to the printer control and deleted the print job.
Overall I think somebody didn't check all the details when they created the program.
Do it right, or do it twice.
I know that it is not what most large jobs call for, but I have been completely avoiding doing most bids, by just working for an hourly wage. Can you exude enough confidence to the prospective customer that they will be willing to just pay you what you are worth for the time needed to do the job? Takes some trust on their part, but you don't have to spend much time on the estimates. It may sound like the cowards way out, but works for me, well mosst of the time anyway.
Dan
Sounds like you're doing time & material...T&M...work. That works well, but you have to use your time effectively. If the customer thinks you're intentionally working slowly, or goofing off, then things get sticky.
Do it right, or do it twice.
As far as tools for estimating, check out the Scale Master Classic from Calculated Industries. It is a real time saver.
http://www.calculated.com/products/6020.html?electrical
I got mine at Lowes for about $65.00.