About a year ago, my best buddy’s girlfriend inherited her parents house and decided that she wanted to do an extensive remodel job – almost doubling the size of the house. When she asked if I would be the GC, I told her that – although it would be a much larger job than I usually do – I would be glad to help her out.
That agreement screeched to a halt when I told her that she needed to get an architect to come up with a set of plans that I could use to get the permits. When I mentioned permits, she immediately (and forcefully) said that she had no intention of getting any permits. At that point, I told her that I would be happy to help her in any way I could, but I wouldn’t touch the GC job as the contractor of record.
She hired an unlicensed contractor and I’ve been pretty heavily involved with her project since July – acting as a “consultant”, helping with some of the demolition, site grading, foundation work, etc. Her contractor, by the way, is very good. No license, but he knows what he’s doing and insists that everything be done to code.
A couple of weeks ago, she asked me to help her evaluate the bids she had received for solar hot water, solar radiant heating, and solar photovoltaic systems. (I’m also a licensed PE, so this was right up my alley). While talking to the vendors, the subject of permits came up and two of the three vendors said that they would withdraw their bids if asked to work without a permit. (I’m supposed to talk to the third vendor on Monday.) I sent her an email yesterday telling her what they said, and all hell has broken loose.
She just called me and she’s pretty annoyed with me. She says that they don’t need to know and I say that they should so that they can make an informed decision about whether they want the job.
I’m thinking about pulling completely out of this job. I can rationalize my participation on a “per hour” or “per task” basis, but I don’t want to mislead (or lie to) other contractors that may get involved – particularly those that I may recommend.
Any advice from this group will be appreciated. FWIW, I’m in Santa Clara County, California, and would be particularly interested in input from anyone with experience in this area.
Thanks
Replies
In CA who gets the permits?
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
For these solar systems, it would be the vendor. Obviously, their permit would only address their work, but the problem is figuring out how to get the inspector to look at their work and somehow not notice the two story addition being built under them. - lol
There will probably be similar issues with other parts of the job. I've already referred a roofing contractor and would be surprised if he will do the job unpermitted.
Bail out gracefully. You're at a point where you can only hurt your professional status by further association with this job.
I'm always happy to help friends, but not when it's liable to hurt my reputation. It's hard to know what others say about you, even when you operate very openly and honestly. So IMO it's not worth getting slammed behind your back, for giving in to the demands of someone who hasn't shown any concern for your future.
That's probably what I'll do, but I wanted to run it by the BTer's first. My biggest concern is my buddy's reaction. We've been pals for almost 25 years and he's closer to me than my own brothers. He's also head over heels in love with the lady in question.
My biggest concern is my buddy's reaction. We've been pals for almost 25 years and he's closer to me than my own brothers. He's also head over heels in love with the lady in question.
That being the case, I'd just try to be more graceful in making my exit.
I've encountered problems with the spouses of friends who are trying to control their husband's relationships away from home, several times. I guess they feel threatened by anything that might remind their husband of what his life was like, before he got hitched. Sad to say, I've lost contact with several friends that way, over the years.
This whole thing sounds like something of that kind, a woman with control issues. Good luck with it.
Edited 10/19/2007 2:07 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
"My biggest concern is my buddy's reaction. "NEVEr, ever mix friendship relationships with business relationships.I do plenty work with and for family andfreinds and several clients have become freinds. But we always separate one from the other.Just how much to you want to lose over your buddies love affair. I can understand her having him puzzie whipped, but how does that extend to you?
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Move on .
Not worth the risk to you and IMO very unethical.
I don't have the PE ethics code memorized but you may have been compromising your ethics from the start, if you knew she didn't have any intention of pulling permits (your state board should have them posted on their website.) At this point, since the vendors have asked about it you can't lie to them. They'd find out sooner or later anyway, and it's better for them to drop out now than when they're halfway into the project.
Wow in Santa Clara County or the city proper? She's nuts to even try this without permits...she is going to get caught. All the solar guys would pull their own permits as part of the job and you wouldn't want one that would do it without permits. It sounds like you are talking with quality contractors and they pull permits.
Boy, one nosey neighbor and man is she screwed!!
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
It's in the county - just outside of the San Jose city limits. Everyone who knows about this job is shaking their head and making book on when she'll get caught.
Her "contractor" will start framing the second floor next week and he's pretty paranoid. It will be visible from the road and ............ - lol
I'm actually feeling a little bad for the "contractor". When I met him I figured that he must be another unlicensed hack who was only there for the check. I've changed my mind now that I've seen his work. He definitely knows what he's doing and everything he's done meets (or exceeds) code. I'm not sure how badly he would get splattered if (when) she gets caught, but he'a a big boy and knew what he was getting into.
A "friend" once asked me to put a patio door in his apt building, i asked if he got the permit, He said he did not need one, Just finishing when the BI pulls up, He asks why no permit, My "friend " points at me and said he told me i did not need one, Nice. so not only did i do a favor the BI wondered about me from then on.
Dave, Dave, Dave...
I am quite surprised you allowed yourself to become involved in this project. In my opinion, you did your best buddy a very serious disservice by doing that. You have put yourself in a bad position, although I realize you had the best of intentions. If you were really his friend, you would have advised his girlfriend knowledgeably. You knew better than that.
>> I'm actually feeling a little bad for the "contractor". When I met him I figured that he must be another unlicensed hack who was only there for the check. I've changed my mind now that I've seen his work. He definitely knows what he's doing and everything he's done meets (or exceeds) code. <<
Geez...The question you HAVE to ask is WHY DOESN'T HE HAVE A LICENSE???? I mean, there MUST be some reason for it! I frankly, don't care if you think his work exceeds code or not! In my opinion, if he is not licensed in Cali, he IS a hack.
All the other contractors here in Cali have to pay for bonding, insurance, worker comp, etc....We did for years and years. Why are you giving this guy a pass?
The gal in going to be in very deep caca when she decides to sell. Did you explain that part to her?
Sorry for being so caustic Dave, it just pizzes me off when people try to get away with stuff. If I knew her address, I'd probably turn her in...
Well, the sun rose... in so many colours it nearly broke my heart... Worked me over like a work of art...and I'm all part of that...
One thing i've noticed among people who've done work without getting permits is that it's usually for interior work. And even then they're pretty skittish about it. But someone who's putting a 2-story addition on a house that's visible to the street?
This sounds from the outset like someone who's both unreasonable and unrealistic. Throw in some selfish for taste. If she's insisting on scenarios beyond your control (i.e., bidders pulling out for lack of permits) you need to sit down with her and have a frank talk about limits and expectations.
dave... every day the project goes on the list gets longer of people who WILL DROP A DIME
some of the vendors not selected will
some of the trades who drive by
some of the nosey neighbors....
keep us posted on when the first "cease & disist gets applied "
this is headed for perditionMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You by doing consulting work and accepting any money have now put yourself and your business on the chopping block of her lawyer if this project gets stopped.
And when they pull or suspend your lic. because of this, is your "best bud" going to help you out?
I NEVER EVEN TALK TO CLIENTS WITH OUT PERMITS BEING OK, EVEN "BEST BUDS"!
All she has to do, and sounds like she is good at it, is piss off the wrong person and the inspectors will come in and stop everything.
Nailer
"I NEVER EVEN TALK TO CLIENTS WITH OUT PERMITS BEING OK, EVEN "BEST BUDS"!"So you get a permit to do the job before you even go out and see what they want?.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Now, Bill ... be fair. That is not what he said. He said that the idea of a permit is OK. Or, conversely, he won't even talk to someone who starts out with 'no permits' as a condition.
Dealing with personality who's mentality is "s***w the law" is always trouble. Give her a wide berth. Man, if she get's caught, you could be in trouble with her version to authorities being "My builder consultant said I didn't need permits".
It's amazing how stories change once people with that mentality are trying to save their own butt.
Runnerguy
Exactly! She willl dump it all on him as soon as the heat is turned on.
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I'm wondering how shes going to get homeowners insurance!
I'd tell her that she better get three bids from qualified contractors that are NOT going to pull permits....then you can evaluate each bid and make recomendations. That will pretty much rule our any further involvment because you probably will never get three sets of mechanical bidders.
You sound like you are the one bearing the bad news and getting treated like it's your decision.
I see no happy endings here. She hasn't thought this thing through. What is she going to say on her seller's disclosure sheet when she gets around to selling it? How could she possibly protect herself from the fallout? Does she really think a new buyer will willingly fork over zillions of dollars on a new property being sold "as is". What will the lender say when he sees the disclosure?
Lots of questions......I'm curious about her answers.
jim
fka (formerly known as) blue
If you're not GC'ing the deal, why are you talking to other contractors? Isn't that HER job? Friends don't make friends tell lies. She's made the choice to work without permits and she needs to assume the full responsibility.
One face-saving way out of this for everyone, to keep your friend and not be legally liable, would be to back off and let her deal with the contractors and vendors herself and just offer advice pro bono on her bid options. You'll invest some time in the relationship you'll have with these people in the future, but you put the responsibility back where it belongs.
The only reason I talked directly to the solar vendors was because she didn't understand their bids and asked me to review them and help her understand them. The bids are little more than an equipment list, a final price, and a payment schedule. (One bid has three pages of "green-speak" lauding the environmentally responsible aspects of going solar and less than two pages of actual "meat" about the system)
After a day of reading them and poking around on the internet, I had more questions than answers and told her that I needed to talk to them to get some answers. The permit issue came up when I asked about her eligibility for rebates and incentives if she hadn't pulled any permits. The two vendors I talked to said that she wouldn't be eligible (that changes the economics in a major way), and that they really didn't want to get involved in unpermitted work.
As far as pro bono work, I limit that to answering a question during the cocktail hour, or going a quick job for someone when I'm in the neighborhood and have an hour to kill. Anything more than that, and I'm on the clock. Like someone once said (or should have)......"Gas, Grass, or #### - Nobody rides for free." - lol
Edited 10/19/2007 7:40 pm by Dave45
The only thing worse than pulling permits in Santa Clara Co. might be not pulling permits and getting nailed. My friend in San Jose lifted a two-storey Victorian several feet to put a walk-out basement under it. He was more than willing to get permits, but got frustrated waiting ungodly amounts of time and opted to forge ahead. It was his own house and his own very high-quality labor, but he paid dearly when he got caught. Like you said, enforcement is rather capricious.As for the woman, if you can tease these stuff out from the Internet, so can she. I installed my first RFH boiler and controls last spring bec 'real' plumbers OK'd my plan and were there when i fired it, helping me adjust temperatures between zones. I did something similar with the first electrical mast and panel i installed. My thinking is that maybe just a word to keep her pointed in the right direction while SHE figures this stuff out would be sufficient, yet not too cumbersome to you. I understand you wouldn't do pro bono work for just anybody, but the best-friend aspect changes things, no? With any luck at all, you'll have two best friends when this is over...headstrong isn't ALL bad....<G>
He and I have cowboyed together for over 20 years. We've "rode the river" together and bailed each other out of wrecks more often than I like to think about. He's taken my back more than once and I've covered his six on occasion.
I don't have a lot of history with her and it takes a while to write all the chapters. - lol
Why did she not want to get permits?
Re: no permitsIt's been my experience that in most cases where people don't want to pull permits, it's due to the fact that "City Hall will find out and raise my taxes!" mentality. They even ignore the fact that permits go hand in hand with code compliance. My cousin who is an electrician
walked away from a job where the homeowner refused to pull permits. Another electrical contractor did the work, didn't pull permits, and a few months later, a fire broke out. The insurance company refused to pay, the local inspector had a nutty, etc.Otis
Link -
When we first discussed it, she said that she didn't want to go thru the hassles of dealing with the county like someone else we know is doing. I tried to point out that the other person was trying to build a new home and the process would be different for a remodel, but she wouldn't hear it.
There's a lot of resistance to getting permits around here and some of it is justified. The county can be a major PITA. They seem to have iconsistent rules and even more inconsistent enforcement. Sometimes it seems that they make it up as they go along and talking to a different person can result in a completely different answer.
In many ways, I sympathize with her position. Getting permits would add to the cost of the job and increase the aggravation level, but the magnitude of the job makes this a no-brainer IMHO. It's one thing to bootleg a deck, a storage shed, a detached garage, or do a major interior facelift. Doubling the size of the place with a two story addition, however, is a whole 'nuther ball game.
Our disagreement really isn't about her not getting permits. That was settled several months ago and she's completely aware of what she's doing. Our disagreement is about me questioning the solar vendors about them. She maintains that they don't need to know and I maintain that they do so they're aware of the situation. If they decide they want the job, they know that there's a potential minefield down the road and can't cry foul if they step on one.
" increase the aggravation level"Yeah, like she hasn't done that herself now...
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It sounds to me as though you keep getting pulled into this job one way or another.
If she has paid money to you for your advice, I think the courts would see it as though you had a business relationship to some degree with her.
As such, the law might find you somewhat culpable (since you're the professional, and she's merely the homeowner) if she has done all this work without permits. In other words, she could argue that she didn't know any better, but it would be damn hard for you to make the same argument.
If money has changed hands, then I'd think about sending her a registered letter saying something like, "It has come to my attention that blah, blah, blah . . . all this work is being done without permits, blah, blah, blah . . . and I can't be a part of it knowing these facts." Then regretfully withdraw from the situation. Keep a copy of the letter with the return receipt. It may protect you to some degree if and when the $hlt hits the fan. (I know, I know, what about your relationship with your good buddy? All I can say there is that, if you get dragged into this, will he go to bat for you and save your license?
If, on the other hand, money has not changed hands, it might be easier for you to argue that you had no business relationship with her, had no knowledge of the unpermitted work, and only gave her a bit of advice when she would ask about certain aspects of building. Thus your level of culpability wouldn't be any greater than when Piffin or Boss Hog give advice here on Breaktime. (In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if their advice has often been used to proceed with unpermitted work) This lie (namely no prior knowledge of unpermitted work)might allow you to maintain your relationship with your buddy, and you might indeed continue to give her advice on her project if she asks for it. I doubt there's anything in your professional "code of conduct" that requires you to notify the authorities if you hear of a job proceeding without permits (providing it's not your job, of course)
Soooo, where does that leave you? Unfortunately, if I'm reading this correctly, and if your buddy stays with this woman, or even worse, marries this woman, I don't think you'll ever have the same relationship with him that you've had. She just sounds too headstrong and controlling to me to allow him to be friends with a guy who wouldn't play the game by her rules. Sorry to sound so blunt.
Note: No money changed hands with the dissemination of this advice, and I cannot be deemed culpable if negative consequences occur as a result of following this advice. Piffin and Boss Hog might be however!
Edited 10/19/2007 4:43 pm ET by fingers
Just curious about the solar stuff and the permits. I'm building a house in NC with solar hot water and photovoltaic system licensed as a small power plant. No one from inspections has asked to even see any evidence of the solar company's credentials, nor did they ask to have them listed on the permit. Only one's listed are electrical, plumbing, and HVAC. It's in a solar community, and everyone in permitting knows it.I'll bet she'll also have some problems when she tries to get the tax credits for her systems. Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
Snort -
Two of the three vendors who have bid her job listed "Obtain Permits" as Step #1 in their bids. The third didn't mention it specifically, but I haven't talked to him yet.
The question came up when I was talking to them to clarify some other issues. When I asked about it, they were adamant about pulling them - said that they absolutely wouldn't do the job without them. They also said that she wouldn't be able to get any of the rebates or incentives without them. When I checked the California Energy Commssion website, I found that one of the requirements to apply for a rebate included "permits and final inspections".
I'm not too worried about any liability on my part so far - as either a GC or as a PE. I declined the GC job because of her refusal to get a permit and several people know that was the reason. 99% of the work I've done has been strictly labor and the other 1% was explaining the specifics of a code requirement. If anyone ever raised a question of due diligence as a PE, I could produce at least two emails showing where I told her that the lack of permits may have future ramificatons.
"If anyone ever raised a question of due diligence as a PE, I could produce at least two emails showing where I told her that the lack of permits may have future ramificatons."May or may not be worthwhile in protecting your self from liabilities. When you establish that you are aware of non-com[liance and then go ahead working under those improper conditions, it signals that you are accepting those cconditions and in collusion.For instance, if a guy is asked for a ride to and from the bank by a couple of his buddies and on the way there, he learns that they have guns and masks and intentions to illegally make a withdrawal of funds, it will do his defense in court no good if his simply writes them a document notifying them that their intended actions are illegal when he goes aghead and continues with providing the ransportation. When he ccontinues in action after knowing the plan is improper, he becomes a participant.
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You have to realize that Dave is in CA and they licenses for EVERYTHING.I understand that they hve a licenese to apply primer. And different one to apply finish paint.And if you find a ding that needs fixing then you need another license to apply spackle..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Not exactly EVERYTHING, Bill -
Just the other day, I hammered some 8's, some 16's, and drove four sizes of deck screws. Nobody said a word!! - lol
Gee Bill, edjakte yasef...
At least Cali has some standards, unlike your state...
Well, the sun rose... in so many colours it nearly broke my heart... Worked me over like a work of art...and I'm all part of that...
In our state the people are treated as ADULTS. Not as 3 year olds."All the other contractors here in Cali have to pay for bonding, insurance, worker comp, etc....We did for years and years. Why are you giving this guy a pass?"Are you saying that ALL of the people that do work covered by the CSLB are fully licensed and insured. That that this person is the ONLY ONE that is not.If California has all of the STANDARDS how come I am always hearing about lawsuites for dfective houses?At to all of the different license here is the list. (A) General Engineering Contractor
(B) General Building Contractor
(C) Specialty Contractor * C2 – Insulation and Acoustical Contractor
* C4 – Boiler, Hot Water Heating and Steam Fitting Contractor
* C5 – Framing and Rough Carpentry Contractor
* C6 – Cabinet, Millwork and Finish Carpentry Contractor
* C7 – Low Voltage Systems Contractor
* C8 – Concrete Contractor
* C9 – Drywall Contractor
* C10 – Electrical Contractor
* C11 – Elevator Contractor
* C12 – Earthwork and Paving Contractors
* C13 – Fencing Contractor
* C14 – Metal Roofing Contractor [repealed]
* C15 – Flooring and Floor Covering Contractors
* C16 – Fire Protection Contractor
* C17 – Glazing Contractor
* C20 – Warm-Air Heating, Ventilating and Air-Conditioning Contractor
* C21 – Building Moving/Demolition Contractor
* C23 – Ornamental Metal Contractor
* C26 – Lathing Contractor [repealed]
* C27 – Landscaping Contractor
* C28 – Lock and Security Equipment Contractor
* C29 – Masonry Contractor
* C31 - Construction Zone Traffic Control Contractor
* C32 - Parking and Highway Improvement Contractor
* C33 – Painting and Decorating Contractor
* C34 – Pipeline Contractor
* C35 – Lathing and Plastering Contractor
* C36 – Plumbing Contractor
* C38 – Refrigeration Contractor
* C39 – Roofing Contractor
* C42 – Sanitation System Contractor
* C43 – Sheet Metal Contractor
* C45 – Electrical Sign Contractor
* C46 – Solar Contractor
* C47 – Manufactured Housing Contractor
* C50 – Reinforcing Steel Contractor
* C51 – Structural Steel Contractor
* C53 – Swimming Pool Contractor
* C54 – Ceramic and Mosaic Tile Contractor
* C55 – Water Conditioning Contractor
* C57 – Water Well Drilling Contractor
* C60 – Welding Contractor
* C61 – Limited Specialty
* ASB – Asbestos Certification
* HAZ - Hazardous Substance Removal Certification
* HIC – Home Improvement Certification [repealed]And with in the limit specialty.D03 - Awnings
D04 - Central Vacuum Systems
D06 - Concrete Related Services
D09 - Drilling, Blasting and Oil Field Work
D10 - Elevated Floors
D12 - Synthetic Products
D16 - Hardware, Locks and Safes
D21 - Machinery and Pumps
D24 - Metal Products
D28 - Doors, Gates and Activating Devices
D29 - Paperhanging
D30 - Pile Driving and Pressure Foundation Jacking
D31 - Pole Installation and Maintenance
D34 - Prefabricated Equipment
D35 - Pool and Spa Maintenance
D38 - Sand and Water Blasting
D39 - Scaffolding
D40 - Service Station Equipment and Maintenance
D41 - Siding and Decking
D42 - Sign Installation
D49 - Tree Service
D50 - Suspended Ceilings
D52 - Window Coverings
D53 - Wood Tanks
D56 - Trenching Only
D59 - Hydroseed Spraying
D62 - Air and Water Balancing
D63 - Construction Clean-up
D64 - Non-specialized
D65 - Weatherization and Energy ConservationD03 - Awnings
D04 - Central Vacuum Systems
D06 - Concrete Related Services
D09 - Drilling, Blasting and Oil Field Work
D10 - Elevated Floors
D12 - Synthetic Products
D16 - Hardware, Locks and Safes
D21 - Machinery and Pumps
D24 - Metal Products
D28 - Doors, Gates and Activating Devices
D29 - Paperhanging
D30 - Pile Driving and Pressure Foundation Jacking
D31 - Pole Installation and Maintenance
D34 - Prefabricated Equipment
D35 - Pool and Spa Maintenance
D38 - Sand and Water Blasting
D39 - Scaffolding
D40 - Service Station Equipment and Maintenance
D41 - Siding and Decking
D42 - Sign Installation
D49 - Tree Service
D50 - Suspended Ceilings
D52 - Window Coverings
D53 - Wood Tanks
D56 - Trenching Only
D59 - Hydroseed Spraying
D62 - Air and Water Balancing
D63 - Construction Clean-up
D64 - Non-specialized
D65 - Weatherization and Energy ConservationSo in California you need a license to install blinds, put up a suspended ceiling, or paint a wall.I was problaly wrong when I said that the state treats their citizens as 3 year olds.More like 1 year olds..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill, NJ's getting like that too.
-Lou
LOL, You have stuck your fingers in this pie now!
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Time and again, I've seen 'short cuts' and 'cleverness' lead to additional expense, delays, and endless headaches.
While there are many 'negatives' about involving the government, the law is the law, and must be complied with. Period. Now, it IS possible for you to talk to the city, and arrange to do this on the sly .... get the permit, don't post it, and have your 'friend' come with you to 'see how it's going' from time to time ...you just need to figure a way to get her to pay for it as well!
PE? "Up your alley?" Well, hope you do better than the last few PE's I've dealt with.
Solar Power? If you're going to backfeed the meter, either get the PoCo to sign off, or her power will be pulled. Period. Trust me, the PoCo WILL find out - just hope there's not the wrongful death of a lineman involved ... or someone will be wearing stripes.
There are three major reasons to comply with ALL laws in these projects.
The first protects your rights should you and the contractor have an issue to resolve . (As if contractors and customers ever have disagreements .....)
The second inserts the inspection process as a way of ensuring code compliance - those rules are there for a reason - as well as a shield should neighbors complain (and someone will - trust me!)
Finally, non-permitted work can gravely affect your homeowners' insurance ... and, in turn, your mortgage. Put is a claim, work is discovered, policy canceled, premiums paid are refunded, and bank calls on the mortgage. Extreme, but a very possible chain of events.
Now, if you want to 'pass the buck,' call Code Compliance and have them discover the job - and red tag it. I suspect that a chat about fines, penalties, etc might be the clincher.
Better yet, if she suspects you 'dropped the dime,' she'll NEVER call you again.
Yuo worked too long to get your PE to let this CUSStomer put it at risk.
Yeah, the connection to the power company is a whole 'nuther thang. I checked the PG&E website and saw that they needed to approve the installation before they would allow it to be connected. They didn't give a precise definition of "approve" (e.g. see permits or inspection reports) and I didn't have time to dig any deeper.
I'm not worried about protecting my PE license. Eight of my 20 years in the nuclear industry were spent working closely with the NRC regulations. My ego may be in overdrive here, but I'm VERY good at CYA. - lol
I draw the line at "dropping a dime" on anyone - unless I'm on the witness stand (and I have been). I'll talk until I'm blue trying to get someone to follow the straight and narrow, but the final decision is theirs - and theirs alone. Once they've made their decision, I can only choose my level of participation (if any) in their actions. If I decide to participate, my PhD in CYA kicks in. - lol
Another poster asks if you're even an engineer. I sure don't doubt you ... engineer school seems dedicated to teaching but two things:
"Everyone else is an idiot;" and,
"Someone else is to blame" :D Cheap jibes aside .... all a "PhD in CYA" will do is let you tie the noose around your own throat. You really need to stop 'aiding and abetting' this petty criminal in her schemes. Simply put, clever schemes and crafty arguments only enrich lawyers and fill jail cells. The Greeks had it right: Pride goes before the fall. As a professional, you are paid largely for your judgment. This little side project puts your credibility at risk. Once lost, credibility is almost never recovered. I'd say it's time to cut your losses and run. I fail to understand how you can "CYA" without 'dropping a dime.' Pointing the finger after the fact is not very convincing. Unless your idea of a good time is playing golf with OJ - who even got a jury to say 'not guilty' - I'd reconsider your amoral outlook.
"Solar Power? If you're going to backfeed the meter, either get the PoCo to sign off, or her power will be pulled. Period. Trust me, the PoCo WILL find out - just hope there's not the wrongful death of a lineman involved ... or someone will be wearing stripes."Here, any unlicensed electrical work can result in a calss E felony - usually if there is personal or property damage as a result
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So, she's asked you to help, but only on her terms. You are unwilling to do that.
Where's the problem?
Oh, she wants you to talk to other contractors, but she wants to dictate what you can and can not say.
You are in a lose-lose situation. The only way this can work out long-term (so you and best bud can continue a social relationship) is to be completely transparent with them. Tell them what you will and will not do and let them decide if they want to maintain a "business" relationship. If they see this as some sort of ultimatum and decide that it will affect the friendship, there's nothing you can do to stop it.
One more thing, try really hard not to let any of your decisions or anything you say be influenced by wether of not you actually like this person.
It is long past time to bail on this.
From what I have read here, any contractor or sub working without a permit in california has no reasonable expectatio of getting paid. The HO can simply refuse and the contrator has no grounds.
But beyond that, any customer who refuseds to operate within the law is a glaring red light that problems will come up later. If they don't mind sticking the govt or cheating on taxes and fees, they will have no hesitation in stiffing you either.
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Edited 10/19/2007 11:37 pm ET by Piffin
Dave,
From one PE to another - get out while you can.
You failed the ethics test on THIS job when you continued with the job after she refused to get permits. You may be good at CYA but something will still try to bite ya. As much as there is an electronic trail for someone to follow, the only way you'd be safe is if you were just a laborer and never spoke a word on the job. Bang nails, keep your trap shut, you're OK.
I've had a lot of clients/customers begin projects while their permits were still under review, or before they'd even applied. If my name's anywhere near that project, they either shut it down or I call the State myself and withdraw the application. I got fired over that once but I need to protect my license, it's my living.
" Bang nails, keep your trap shut, you're OK. "I don't even think that is a protection. The fact he has that license implies some working knowledge of how things are supposed to be done
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You could be right.
Sorry, but are you really a PE?
Dave i knew a guy that built all sorts of add ons on his house, Unfortunately he died but it turns out the town was taking pictures and were waiting till the end to spring the trap on him, They were mad but knew and were just going to let him go deeper and deeper, The widow hired a real contractor and the town worked with him to straighten the whole mess out.
Maybe it would be best to have one last meeting, cover all the bases you can, and refer them to an engineers association for a name. Let her know your insurance has some structure about the type of work you do or something along those lines.......you know .................a little white lie.
Edited 10/20/2007 4:25 pm ET by shellbuilder
I've got to agree with JonE's take on this. (post 36) Ethically you have failed. I'm not sure how you can possibly think that it is ethical to work as a consultant and be involved in the demolition and foundation work knowing full well that the GC on the project is not licened and the job is not permitted. As soon as you started working for her as a consultant you violated your ethics and essentially told her that proceeding without permits on a job this large is OK.
Dave
I'm curious, what will the authorities do if/when she gets caught? What will they do and what can they do- Severity wise(sometimes two different things)? I know what happens here but you are in California, they do things different there!
Doug
Edited 10/20/2007 9:25 pm ET by DougU
I used to live in California. They want permits. And they get rather uptite when they're they're not pulled.
I saw a oceanview bluff house tore down over the no permit issue. The guy wouldn't do some things the city wanted, they tagged him. He got pizzed. The city got more pizzed, he wouldn't budge, they took his house down.
The thing was (I was in the same city), they bent over backwards to help you out. I got caught without one when I started my project and was very courtesly helped thru the process.
I'm sure you were very couteously compliant as well....;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well said, clear, concise, and straight forward.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think you sould not be asked to lie about the circumstances of a job. That to me is reason enough to get uninvolved.
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Tell her that you have heard "rumors" that the building inspector is aware of the work being done without permits. Since you have to protect yourself, you need to walk away. If she doesn't respect your decision to walk away to protect your license she may (at the very least) be worried enough to consider getting permits for the other work.
Jason
Your buddy KNOWS that she is trying to slip one by the system, and apparently his judgment is also poor. I assume he is optimistically hoping she will never get caught, which seems unrealistic given the near-term problems with connecting the solar, or the longer range ones when she tries to sell the home some years down the road. In Calif there is ALOT of litigation after home sales due to failure to disclose - and unpermitted additions is an easy one to nail. Bottom line, it is going to come to light at some point.
If you and your bud have been helping each other for 25 years, he will understand that he can't expect you to participate in this any further. Tell him the truth: your judgment was compromised by your friendship for him, but she either has to get permits or you have to get the heck outta there, pronto.
It seems you don't want to be the bearer of bad news. It isn't bad news, it isn't good news, it is simply fact. She needs a permit and she is a fool to circumvent it.
She isn't doing you any favors by sucking you into this, and your buddy does NOT have your backside on this; if he did, he would be telling her to get a permit and telling you to steer clear of the impending disaster if she continued to refuse.
This is your free legal advice for the day from a California lawyer.
St. Patty (and everyone else) -
Thanks for the input. You mention "free legal advice for the day", but I guess daily advice would probably be asking too much, wouldn't it? - lol
Actually, I've pretty much decided to step away from this thing. Stpatrick's post touches VERY close to the facts leading up to this situation and - during a lengthy discussion involving a few beers this weekend - I now know several other things that I didn't know before.
One of them is that my buddy has tried to get her to do this legally, but she won't budge. As much as he hates dealing with the "revenoors", he recognizes the risks she's taking and they've had some pretty heated discussions about it. Apparently, my involvement - even "under the radar" - has tempered some of her more extreme ideas.
Apparently, her "contractor" is way more nervous than I knew about. He usually works for a licensed contractor and takes jobs on the side when he can squeeze them in. This job is far larger than anything he's tried on his own and he's beginning to wonder if he's getting in over his head. There's no concern about his ability to do the actual work and meet all of the codes, but it's one thing to get "busted" over a $1000 deck, and a whole 'nuther ballgame on a two story addition.
Some posters have questioned my ethics and morality and I'm comfortable with mine. I always encourage people to do things "by the book" and am often successful helping them understand why "the book" actually makes sense. In some cases, they aren't convinced and we part ways right there. Once in a while, however, it's a friend who won't be convinced and I feel that I have an obligation to help them do it right - even if isn't "legal".
Someone asked if I was really a licensed PE, and I assure you that I am. Obviously, I'm not gonna draw you a map to my front door, but I've carried that license for over 25 years and it's very dear to me (I don't EVER want to work that hard for something like that again - lol). My review of the solar bids is the only thing I've done which could fall under my license and my response to her was correct -
These vendors don't want to do unpermitted work so there was no reason to pursue more technical information.
You're obligated to tell all vendors that you don't want to get permits. They're the only ones who have the right to decide to go ahead or walk away.
Without permits, you aren't eligible for any rebates or other incentives and the whole plan doesn't make economic sense.
Thanks again to everyone who responded.
Good decision: you won't be sorry....I hope. Better late than never.fka (formerly known as) blue
I've been reading along and waiting for you to come back and say the right thing here. glad to see it happen.maybe you could carefully suggest to the carpentry 'contractor' that he get her to keep him paid up to date weekly so that he isn't out too much when the brick finally falls.'course, you said he is a big boy and alland there could be an ethical dilemma of a different kind since your money comes from her so you represent her interests, not his....
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SSounds totally bogus to me. Does the homeowner know that if they are putting themselves in a bind if their house ever burns down? Most insurance companies will not stand behind a policy if it is found work was done without a permit being pulled.
Ted -
That argument - as well as a dozen others - was made almost a year ago. I told her, my wife (who works in the real estate business) told her, and many of her friends told her. I've also learned recently that my buddy (her boyfriend) had changed his mind about it and they have had some pretty serious arguments over the past couple of months.
After I turned down the opportunity to be her GC, she apparently contacted 2-3 others who also turned her down. I've been told that their refusal to work without permits was somehow interpreted as not wanting to work with (or for) a woman.
She has dug in her heels and ain't gonna move.
She got stilletto heels??? They do dig deep;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Stiletto's have only one contact point and it can be deep. You only have to break it once, however, to get it to move.
This would be more like track shoes, baseball cleats, or football spikes. It would take several breaks before she lost traction. - lol
" Most insurance companies will not stand behind a policy if it is found work was done without a permit being pulled"Can you quote a section from your HO insurace that says that.Mine doesn't.Hundreds of people has said that. But I have never had one find it in their policy.In fact one insurance underwriter told me that they insurace against stupidity. Mean that they pay off if there is "illegal" work.However that does not completely take her off the hook."Sorry Ms Jones for the lose of you $500,000 house. Unfortunately you only insurace a $150,000 house.Also it probably gives the insurace company more amunition to go after anyone that worked on it.
.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill I think you've mentioned that before and it makes sense. The Insurer would probaly have to prove arson to withold payment. That's a good question for the lawyers.
I think the larger issue is disclosure down the road. There will be a little statement asking if any work was done without a permit. fka (formerly known as) blue
Don't be thick. The insurance company has insured a house, based upon the information provided. If it is, at a later date, determined (by the insurance company alone) that they were misled, one of the remedies provided for in the policy is to cancel the policy and refund all premiums paid. This is one of the more basic remedies, well enshrined in insurance law, and is probably their first line of defense against fraud. No conviction or court ruling is necessary; the insurer simply asserts that the property (or person) is not what they agreed to insure. Sometimes they take a lesser approach ... and offer a drastically reduced settlement. In either case, it is the policyholder who gets to sue, and try to reverse the decision of the insurer. In health insurance, such is likely to happen if, say, the insured turns out to be living under a false identity. In homeowners' insurance, an abundance of non-permitted work may cause such a cancellation. The short version is "we insured a 3 bedroom home ... not a 5 bedroom / office / workshop. Not only are we refusing the claim ... here's your money back."
"Don't be thick."Why not?I am not the only one that is thick.Did you even READ my message past the first word.If you had READ my message I said that they they could have problems becuae the house was not as described. But I used dollar value instead of number of rooms.And those changes could have been done with or without permits and they would still have the same insuracne problems..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
True enough ... creeping values are a pitfall of many policies. But the absolute revocation of coverage, because of illegal work performed, is far from rare. It's a bit of a 'stealth' action, because it doesn't happen until a claim is submitted. In short, the insurer is saying 'that's not the house we agreed to insure.'
This is simply a matter of separating her problems from yours.
If she wants to assume the risk of no permits, then the outcome is her problem.
If you recommend subs who are going to be mislead about the permits then you are letting the client's problem become your problem. I simply let clients know that I don't treat my subs that way and she's welcome to find her own subs.
If things go to pot it's off your shoulders, don't even let it bother you. The funny thing about people and their problems is that they want to spread the love and make their problems yours. Don't let it happen.
It's like dealing with kids--they test their boundaries and will walk all over you unless you simply let them know what is acceptible behavior and what is not. Don't take it personally, simply let the client know when they are pushing your boundaries and if it isn't working for you simply wish them luck and move on.
Best of luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Gracefully get out as fast as you can. Like you I’m a licensed PE and like you a friend asked me to “help-out” with her renovation. A unlicensed contractor was hired and no permits were filed against my direct advice. Make a long story short the house caught on fire due to faulty wiring and since the contractor was not insured and didn’t have a pot to (you know what in), I was sued by my friend’s husband. I had to hire a lawyer, a real shark. Got out of the law suit but ended up paying my lawyer $5K. The husband was a real jerk, his wife was a college friend of mine and that friendship went up in smoke too.
JM
Glad you were able to get out of the law suit, sorry it cost you 5K.If we may ask, what was the extent of your "helping out"? Engineering services or more like wearing a tool belt?
TFB (Bill)
Bill,Strictly advice only. Reviewed plans, recommended building products, design suggestions…etc. Never hands on and never charged for my services. When the fire broke out, my friends husband (the jerk) asked me if I could put a claim in on my insurance, which I said absolutely not. It would be illegal for me to make a false insurance claim. Since I was the only target in sight with insurance I got sued. The fact that I advised my friend on a personal base and didn’t receive compensation saved my butt. The biggest loss here is my friendship of over 30 years. We still speak every now and than but needless to say the friendship is very strained.Good luck,JM