Hi All, I am addressing this to junkhound as he seems a natural to answer this question. It seems like it might even tie in with Luka’s winch questions.
I live in a city where you cannot cut down a tree that is over 54″ at breast height without it meeting one of three criteria. The criteria are that it is diseased/damaged, it threatens a structure or it threatens an approved construction project.
Unfortunately I have fifty or more eucalyptus that are larger than 54″ at breast height and they threaten no structures and are so healthy they are growing at a phenomenal rate. The city rep I talked to made it quite clear that I would have a substantial burden of proof to get an approved tree permit.
The last time I cut down an unstable and unsightly acacia that threatened other native oak trees a neighbor/passerby called the city and I was fined $1200 dollars. To get a better idea of the bureaucracy check out the following website.
http://www.robertsward.com/rsward_bluegum.html
I want to remove ten or more of the eucalyptus as they are dropping large limbs at a rate of several limbs per year on our driveway. Part of my motivation is an unexpected collision I had with one which resulted in a broken arm. These trees are roughly 150 feet tall.
If I want to remove them I can try to fight the restrictive removal permit criteria, I can cut them down and pay the fines or I can try my latest crazy idea. This is too topple the tree and let the city try and prove it wasn’t natural forces that dropped it.
I figure if I use my “big shot” throw line sling shot I can get a line around the tree 75 feet up or higher. I am hoping that with this kind of leverage and an 8000 lb winch I might be able to just pull the tree over. The problem is I don’t know what kind of pull would be required to topple a 150 ft eucalyptus.
I considered buying a winch for my f350 but wonder how the truck would respond to having one end anchored to a tree and the other trying to pull a giant tree down with a cable anchored 75 feet up.
Then I ran a cross an old 1970 towtruck with a pto holmes 440 tow rig that has a 8000 lb winch. I figure this would be superior to any aftermarket winch I could buy but I don’t want to short term buy and then have to sell a towtruck only to find the physics of my idea are not going to pencil out.
So the question is whether a 75foot lever is long enough to topple a 3foot diameter eucalyptus if it has 8000lbs of tension on it?
The next question is what happens if you overload a 8000 lb pto winch on a relatively light duty tow truck (chevy C30)? I hear pto winches keep pulling until something breaks. Hopefully they have a shear pin or some other safety device so I don’t tear the anchor points off the frame. I do have plenty of other massive trees to anchor the front of the truck to.
I also have several hundred feet of new 3/8″ winch cable.
I do have some doubts after my firefighter friend mentioned they have broken a heavy duty winch on their rescue truck numerous times when attempting difficult pulls. The firefighters seem to be more level headed than me and less likely to push limits.
What do you guys think?
thanks in advance,
Karl
Replies
What do you guys think
I think there are simpler ways to hurt yourself - -
So the question is whether a 75foot lever is long enough to topple a 3foot diameter eucalyptus if it has 8000lbs of tension on it?
guarentee a winch attached to a pickup truck will not 'pull over' a tree of the size you descibe - you might be able to break the top out of it -
sorry, just don't see this strategy working....
D9 or better???
Maybe...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Thanks for the input.I did preface the plan by saying it was my latest "crazy idea".If IMERC thinks a D9 has some potential, it makes me wonder what kind of pull that would exert.Eucalyptus is pretty tough stuff to break and I hear anecdotal evidence that they are shallow rooted, Hence my "crazy idea".I have also seen several uproot in windstorms. I have no idea what kind of force fifty or more mph winds exert on the crown of a large tree.I am still looking for a means of toppling a massive tree without fighting city hall for approval http://www.robertsward.com/rsward_bluegum.htmlor getting fined $1200. Ultimately it would have to be arguable forces other than human toppled it and it would have to happen in a manner I could predict when it would fall (safety reasons).I wasnt suggesting a truck could pull it over. I was suggesting anchoring the truck to another tree and using 8000lbs of line pull to topple it.Thanks,
Karl
They are shallow rooted. They originate in Australia where soils are notoriously poor. The shallow roots let them get anything going close to the surface. ( makes planting any other trees close to them almost impossible )
A few years ago a big wind brought down a heap of them on a mates place. They were on all sorts of angles with giant dirt frisbees attached to the base.
A dozer will push them over OK, but like Frenchy said........will leave an awful lot of evidence.
Quietest and simplest way is to drill holes in the trunk down low, load it up with herbicide and plug the hole. When the tree croaks, you got a perfect reason to drop it.
I would look at milling it too, lots of Eucalypts have fantastic timber.
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
I am leaning towards AJ in NZ's idea. Disreetly kill the tree. If I recall correctly, Sphere once wrote that a copper nail or maybe a handful of copper nails in a tree trunk will kill it within a year.An arborist told me the quickest way to kill a tree is to dig the dirt back and make a cut completely around the circumference of the trunk. Rake the dirt back to hide the evidence and the tree will begin dying immediately.My only regret about felling a dead tree (hiring it out) is that eucalyptus is so tough once it starts to dry. The local tree guys only like to run fresh cut green wood through their chippers as it is apparently much harder on the knives once it has a chance to dry. I am going to end up with a mountain of trunks and branches that I might be able to turn into firewood if it is still wet enought that it will cut and split without superhuman effort.AJ's idea of lumber is interesting as the local eucalyptus groves are all of a variety that has a twist to its grain. As it dries it twists so bad it is totally useless.One local with a portable saw mill says even green eucalyptus will twist so much, so quick that it binds his blade halfway down the cut. Another miller mentioned some antifreeze like chemical can be applied to the wood to slow down or mitigate the moisture loss and reduce twisting.The former miller tried milling some up and immediately bolted it down to make a surface for a flatbed equipment trailer and was not at all satisfied with the results.I will be glad when santa cruz adopts oaklands philosophy on these trees. The sad thing is they go grow so fast that the native oaks are either shaded out or smashed by falling limbs. Eucalyptus also allegedly has a root growth inhibitor it releases and discourages other plantlife from growing under it.
TWERNT me..but a ringlet of Cu..a girdle so to speak. No worries..you can kill it.twernt me.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
OOPS! I guess it was IMERC.Sorry, karlFrom:
IMERC
Sep-9 1:03 pm To:
KATHICVILLE
(7 of 26)
47325.7 in reply to 47325.6 Putting copper nails or piece of soft copper into a tree or a bush will kill it....Know this for sure...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaimingWOW!!! What a Ride!
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Not a problem..you the same? cut and paste shingles from KY?If you are..fan-freakin- tasical...I work with G about full time.......be well.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
Sphere, Yup, I am the copper turret guy grant helped out. Glad to hear you are keeping busy. I saw the pics of the copper porch roof you had installed. Looked sweet.Take care,
karl
OK, promised some pix this AM of some serious cabling on a big 160 ft plus black cottonwood. This one I also cut as I did not want to wipe out my pumphouse tower.
Parked an old '78 dodge and hit it right on. Couldn't find the pix of the winch hookup right off, it is behind the camera on the shot with the doubled cables and 2 blocks.
Had a 3/8 and a 1/2" cable 90 deg to the pull cable to keep any possible side fall onto the pumphouse out of the picture.
My nextdoor neighbor is a retired logger/businessman (80+YO) and wanted to use his 36" saw one more time, so he made a backcut. Note that in that pix the tree is wrapped with HS 7/16 chain above the cut to prevent barberpole.
junkhound,
thanks for sharing the pictures.What was up with the 78 dodge? Target practice?You make reference to the winch attachment. Was it mounted to a tree, tractor, truck???I don't see myself trying to realistically uproot one of my giant eucalyptus after hearing yours and others experiences, I am just curious how and others pulled off similar projects.thanks, karl
Yes, 78 dodge was 'target practice' , you will notice in the pix that 2 trees were dropped, didn't show the dodge in any of the pix.
Winch was into rear reciver of junk 1-1/2 tron truck, front tied to a 2 ft dia maple at the base.
Art... us dial uppers.. Please..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I never liked just having ONE vehicle or winch pulling a tree down. That leave too many directions for the tree to fall. For instance - Try to pull a tree straight south with one line, and it could concievably fall anywhere in an arc from WSW ESE. And there's always the danger of the tree falling on the pulling vehicle. So I like to use TWO pulling vehicles. (Tractors for us rednecks) By pulling in two different directions, the tree can be made to fall in a pretty specific spot. Check out the attached picture to see what I mean. The blue arrow in the intended fall direction. and the 2 red lines marked "pull" are where you would put the pulling vehicles. This insures that the tree fall in a relatively narrow arc, and doesn't fall on one of the pulling vehicles.
The main reason for a much lower burglary rate in America is householders' propensity to shoot intruders. They do so without fear of being dragged before courts and jailed for life. [London Daily Telegraph]
I had the second cable to a deadhead as it was directly opposite the lean direction, so as soon as th ehinge moved, that cable was taut (sway cable)
Appologies on pix for dialup folks, sorry for not taking the time to edit/convert, will try to remember next time.
Im gonna tell a little bit more of the truth.
I was of the thinking that I could have been killed when that tree fell up hill. I had cut a lot of fire wood . But not the demension of the trees you had lying down.
I got a new respect and got a little scared of big tall trees. I have hired three different tree men since that time . Ive watched a couple of more that I didnt have on my payroll. The best around is a guy named Tim. I always use him now I know hes the best. Hes meticulous about every thing . Do you remember George Blanda with the Raiders as their kicker in the 60s? Every thing had to be just right and it was funny to watch him set the whole feild. He acted like a little general and he wanted his placement guy to be right on his spot. It wasnt up to that guy . Anyway it was funny. Tim reminds me of him. A couple of times he didnt have help and I "got " to help him on my stuff. His method is hes a climber and he tops the tree in the oposite direction of fall. He can bring a tree stright down to the ground in a 12 foot circle too to spaces are tight . His main deal is working in peoples front yard . We used ropes but only to guide. He didnt really want any pull. He called pulling trees , "widow makers" . Sometimes its necesary to pull one but it the last resort . He doesnt look at dropping one with him in it as risky cause hes got a release line he seems to fly down in 15 seconds per 60 feet . Hes awsome. I just thought I would share a little of him. He knows a lot of different cuts to make a tree do different things . Id call him a master at the swing hinge cut where the tree actually falls around another tree and then to the ground when its necesary for a path to the ground with out damageing the tree next to it.
Anyway , I learned what a real trade tree cutting offers. The bucket truck boys call him when they need the big ones topped and they`re out of reach . He makes pretty big money too. Ive got him several jobs in my addition and Ive used him a lot my self with the properties I own. He cut a very big tree down the street by topping it and bringing it down standing on the side of it.
As far as I know , he doesnt know anything else.
Tim Mooney
I think most of the big pieces are cross cut.
Tree,
When you say "crosscut", do you mean when milling it into lumber??? I don't follow unless you are talking about making it into endgrain flooring or something like that.Karl
Yes, cut a slab out of it crosswise. You might call a local mill and see if they will buy it.
You couldn't pay me enough to try pushing over a eucalyptus with anything - even a D9. They aren't called widow-makers for nothing. - lol
Eucalyptus trees grow like weeds around here and it's not uncommon for one to suddenly drop a branch with no warning. It's a pretty brittle wood and even a healthy tree can drop large branches under the right conditions.
My neighbor has a 60 - 70 footer in the parkstrip between the sidewalk and curb and the city denied her request to cut it down a couple of years ago. She did get their ok to have it pruned but there are two large branches that look like accidents waiting to happen.
You may be able to get permits to cut them based on safety issues, but I would have it done by pro's - with real good, paid up, liability insurance. - lol
pull over a 150' tree!let me know when your going to do this i might even travel to watch this.my experence was a little 5 dia. elm tree. thought the same as you get up high and use leverage. so tied a log chain at about 20',tied other end to truck. wound her up and took off, when i hit the end of the chain i'm not sure i even shook a leaf off but i pulled the rearend of the truck off the ground i bet 8'. man we laughed about this for years. i think the only hope you have is to start trying to kill the trees and then get permit for removing.might try chemical or some people say if a tree has 2-3' of dirt put over the root system will kill a tree. might do what a neighbor at the lake did. same restrictions -no tree removal. went out on a sat. am and cleaned all the trees. mon. am officals show up fine him 13k. he's like who cares it's worth that to me to see the lake. had to plant new seedlings to replace,there not doing well........ larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
"some people say if a tree has 2-3' of dirt put over the root system will kill a tree."when we bought our house there was a sad looking elm in the yard. house was 12 years old.slowly dying was the tree.few years later decided to take it down, so cut it down.started to dig out the root ball.went down 5 ft no bottem of the tree. tree started growing new roots, but it was slowly dying.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
NO David is correct, you won't be able to with that equipment and a D8 might or might not knock them dowm but it sure would leave tracks and proof as to what you're up to..
Get a tree surgeon to check your trees for you and follow his advice..
one of Victor's D11's...
then we be cooking on both burners...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
You don't stand a chance. They are too flexible of a tree. I've seen big Ukes bend nearly 90 degrees in gusty winds. What are you going to do when you've built up that much tension and she still aint cracking? If you try it, PLEASE take some video.
You might check out statistics on the Oakland, Ca. fire of 15? years ago. Eucalyptus trees were a big part of why it spread so fast. They are perfect firestorm trees and were seen exploding in flames from heat 100' before the fireline got to them. Since then the city approves of any removal of Ukes automatically. You might ask your fire insurance company to send you a letter saying that they are dangerous and get the city thinking about a liable case if they refuse you.
Another angle is they are really bad for local birds (I assume you are not an Aussie). They lose their branches and bark so easily that birds who normally nest in hardwoods get blown out in the spring storms.
It's a tough choice: argue a rational point with the city or a suicidal tree removal idea. Sounds like a toss up.
Karl, I tried to pull a shrub out of the garden once, after digging all around it, using my truck and a chain. I could not budge it and was worried that the force would pull the ball off my truck. Your idea is not going to work.
Inject copper sulfate into the root zone?
That was my thought... cut off the water, and the tree would starve out.
Also thought about bennonite.
karl,
The fact that you suffered a broken arm should be enough to get your insurance company involved. I'd ask them to pettition the City on your behalf saying that the trees are potential "widow makers."
Question, although the City will not let you remove the trees, can they stop you from having them trimmed down to a more managable size? Hire a tree trimmer, and have the guy trim the hell out of them.
Davo
Thanks for the suggestions. I think the city allows trimming 25% every 3 years. Definitely see 25% as open to interpretation, especially as permits are not required to trim. I see it being tough for the city to prove it was trimmed a specific percentage if the evidence is in the form of a pile of wood chips.thanks again,
Karl
You could alwasy trim off the BOTTOM 25% <G>.
I have pulled over an alder. I'll be pulling at least two more this summer.
Art, (Junkhound), was telling me that the cable that he gave me had last been used to pull over a very large tree at his place.
It CAN be done.
But it may not be the solution to your problem.
First of all, it will be almost impossible not to leave marks that will make it obvious. You think they aren't going to think twice about those chain marks in the top of the tree ? Or cable marks. Whatever.
Second, to do it right you will need a LOT more than just a winch on a truck, anchored to another tree.
You are going to have to climb the tree. And you are going to have to get 2/3 to 3/4 of the way up before you anchor off your chain or cable.
If the tree is 100 foot tall, figure on at least 70 feet high for your pull point.
You'll need another tree at least 100 foot away.
You connect at the 70 foot mark. Go from there, through a 5 ton logging block at the foot of the second tree.
Back to your pull point at 70 feet high. Through a second 5 ton block there.
Back to the second tree, and through a third 5 ton block at the base of that tree.
THEN to your winch.
Your winch should be securely anchored at the base of yet another tree.
Best pull point is opposite the tree you are pulling over, in relation to the anchor tree with the two blocks. You will be pulling the tree AWAY from you.
You need at least 1/2 inch cable.
All your rigging has to be rated for at least 3 tons, minimum. I would go for 5.
The winch should be anchored to the tree. Not affixed to a vehicle that is chained off to a tree.
5 ton winch at the least. Very low geared. This is not something that you just start yanking on. Slow and steady pull is the secret.
And an absolutely calm day. Maybe the most important thing there, unless you are going to top the tree first.
---
Now, IF you do all this, you are not guaranteed that you will not simply snap off the top of the tree.
Eucalyptus having such a shallow root system will be in your favor there, but it may be your luck to get the one stubborn rooted euc in the county...
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It will be all but impossible to do all this, and not leave some sort of telltale sign.
---
If you luck through all that, and you pull several of them down... The county or city WILL have an expert that can come out, and easily see that your trees have not just suddenly started falling over of their own accord.
Soil conditions. Tree health. Lots of stuff that you just can't fake...
---
I think your best bet is to kill the trees and then have a professional bring them down.
I like the copper nails idea. Peel back a small bit of bark, drive the nail, and glue the bit of bark back down. I would ring the tree with steel and copper alternating about every 4 inches.
Or digging around them, stripping the bark completely around, then covering the stripped area back up. However, if the tree does fall on it's own after that, that stripped ring is going to be fairly obvious.
Another idea... You know those spike things you can get that you stick in the ground next to a tree to feed it at the roots ?
Get a few of those. And "feed" the trees a few refreshing doses of roundup.
Even if you kill the trees first, you are going to have to hold your breath that they don't still send someone out to investigate the reason for the deaths of the trees.
---
Someone else here had what is probably going to be your best bet.
Just cut them down.
Then pay the fine.
Forgiveness is easier to get than permission.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
Thank you Buddy...just..thank you.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
For what ??
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
just for being you..cyber hug..deal with it..lol
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
Thought you were being facetious.: )
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
Never,,,not me.I got a paying gig for ya this summer,,,if you make it to OHIO..I am 5 hrs south...Sam T might beable to pencil in the details ( once I send them)...............hang steady..this is show time.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
Paying gig ?SamT ?This is a setup, right ?I owe that old goat 20 bucks for a couple of modems. He's just trying to get his money.; )
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
where are you at? got a rather large cat D9 and a 993 cat hoe at my disposal they didnt say anythung about diggin em up? better yet-- we could get some of them ''funny lookin candles'' that i got stored up in my wood shed.let me know cause i might have to recurit some help for this project.
I love the D-9 idea! only problem is everyone will hear and see it! including the city official I think you could probably win on America's Funniest Home Videos hooking it up to your pickup, sounds like a riot!
use Victor's D11 instead.....
NOBODY would be brave enough to ask you what yur up to if word got out that you'd be willing to park it in their living room if you deem their questions dumb or the possible answers are of their buiness...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Whatever you decide to do, please capture it on video tape. I think entries to "Stupid behavior caught on tape" should fetch at least a few hundred dollars. That could come in handy for medical bills and fines and such.
We've taken down some big trees with both conventional (saws and winches) and unconventional (excavators, trucks and cables). I think going the subtle route may not be as exciting but will be better. But again, please capture on video and post once you are done!
Considerably smaller at only 80' and 2-2½' d., but I had a red oak here that was too close to my new house.
Our method for a difficult fall is to pull on the tree while cutting, to direct the fall. Gave my guy the choice of sitting in my deuce-and-a-half operating the winch or cutting the tree. He wasn't convinced the truck was far enough away and chose to cut the tree. Neither of us were climbers, the cable was attached only 25' up.
So I'm sitting leisurely in the cab, tensioning the cable and watching him cut. Suddenly he grabbed the saw and took off. Odd, I was sure he hadn't finished the cut. Next thing I knew the tree was coming at me. I'd uprooted it with the winch.
Before you get excited, the roots had mostly rotted off, wasn't a healthy tree.
Oh, I had enough cable out. Came down short of the truck a good 30'.
Don't know about your Chevy, but my Kaiser has a shear pin in the drive line. Replaced it many times with no ill effect. I'd guess anybody destroying a winch had replaced a shear pin with something too hard. Mine calls for aluminum, but I've used grade 3 steel bolts successfully, considerably easier to find.
Don't forget the pix.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"So I'm sitting leisurely in the cab, tensioning the cable and watching him cut. Suddenly he grabbed the saw and took off. Odd, I was sure he hadn't finished the cut. Next thing I knew the tree was coming at me. I'd uprooted it with the winch. "
Dont ya just love it when plans go straight to H^ll and impossible things happen or at least unexpected? Totally awsome ! I was cutting a tree on a hillside . I planned for the tree to fall down the hill side . NO more thinking needed ! It fell up hill and nearly fell on me , because it did what I belived it couldnt do! Inexperienced pilots die not believing their instruments. I nearly stood there too long being sold out on the down hill thing.
edit; Oh yea. Running is a bad thing . We buried a high school friend last year . He ran from a falling tree and fell . So did the tree , on him. Left a family of four . My instinct would tell me to stay with the base of the tree and not run after that. He could have made one step around the base of the tree and still been here.
Tim Mooney
Edited 3/3/2005 9:44 am ET by TIMMOONEY52
"I was cutting a tree on a hillside . I planned for the tree to fall down the hill side . NO more thinking needed ! It fell up hill and nearly fell on me , because it did what I belived it couldnt do!"
Yeah, took down a pair of oaks last Sunday. One had more than a few widow-makers on it. Just at the crest of a very steep slope. A friend, who wanted the tops for firewood, insisted on being there. All he did was watch, so I guess he wanted to be available if I got in trouble. No pulling on the tops this time. Not a critical fall so I made a guess at the hinge direction. Both came down within a foot of what I'd hoped for. Neither was at all balanced, large limbs only on one side. Sometimes you get lucky. With widow-makers I don't like to have somebody pulling on the tops.
The reason I like to pull the top is to make certain it goes down the direction I want. I have yet to pull on a top and not have the tree go down in that direction, makes running away a lot safer. However, I've seen more than a few butts take off in unexpected directions, making remaining at the stump hazardous.
Sorry to hear about your friend. Logging isn't the most risk-free activity one could engage in. A neighbor nearly lost his head, literally, when he cut a small walnut and it split in half, shooting half the tree straight back away from his tiny wedge. I taught him about pulling and he bought a good comealong and cable. Not fast in my methods, but I've not yet had a tree get away from me. Even the uprooted one came down exactly where I wanted. If my helper had stayed there, the root ball would have sent him flying. It was 10' across, plus the disturbed ground around it. Quite a crater.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"What do you guys think?"
I have never read such a gutzy post by someone with out enough knowlege.
That is work for a crane since its above bucket truck heights. If you aree correct , 150 feet is a very tall tree. You would at least need a hold on 3/4s the length! Thats not going to happen at 100 feet.
You can end up killing someone or causing a lot of damage.
Tim Mooney
that's what makes some heroes..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I've pulled out a lot of stumps of trees and shrubs much smaller than your 150' trees. Nothing you attach to your F-350 is going to work. I've killed several trees that stood in the way of progress. They were large cottonwoods and my secret was drilling holes in the trunk below the soil level. I then poured all kinds substances into the holes over a period of 6 months. Some of the stuff I put in there was round up, a granular product called stump rot, household cleaners. It took a while but when spring came the trees didn't leaf out very well, the leaves that did open were all shrivelled up and finally dropped off.
Billy
If you think you can pull down the tree, I think your underestimating its holding strength. If that cable snaps, it will cut you in half before you could blink. You hear about all kinds of death resulting from stupid things, don't be one of them. Check out http://www.darwinawards.com . Don't do something stupid enough to join them.
Where you were injured and I assume you live in Cali so you have a fire risk, I would go after them with both the insurance company on your side and also a lawyer threatening the town with a lawsuit. Also, if the city is so restrictive, may you can get some help from the State forestry management or the Feds, both would care a lot more about the fire risk.
If you opt for winch and cable be very careful. A cable under tension that snaps will cut through any body part that might be in the way. I'm a firefighter and ran a call where a tow truck driver was attempting to pull a truck out of ditch, the cable snapped and now the dude has no legs.
Many, many years ago, an old timer told me to ALWAYS use a length of chain any time I was pulling anything with a cable. The idea is that if the cable breaks, the chain keeps the cable from whipping like a bull whip. I can only remember two times when a cable broke and the chain idea worked. The cable and chain just dropped to the ground instead of whipping all over the place.
OK, where to start. Go with the 'kill it' suggestions you have been given.
1. Fall protection or far away a must, nearly got killed (2 weeks in hospital) 30 years ago pulling a tree with FOPs off the dozer, so definetely be at least 30 feet farther away than the tallest twig.
2. Pulled over a 168 ft black cottonwood this spring with 10,000# winch, but had 2 blocks and over 400 ft of 1/2" and 5/8' cable (and chain saw) involved. 200 ft away with elec. remote for the electric winch. Spent about 2 days setting cable as it leaned over my pumphouse - photos on home computer, will post some later today.
3. Never have pulled a Euc., have pulled lotsa fir and alder, pulled close to a hundred clearing land and road, many 20-24 inch dia. Typical pull was with D2 or JD440 with bucket full (about 15000# pull), 5/8 cable thru big block on 3/4" choker set about 35-40 ft up (ladder on top of cat canopy) I'd guess you could pull a Euc (assuming shallow roots as others have said) with an 8000# winch and 3/8" cable and a double or triple block setup. Assume you have lots of blocks and cable<G>. throw some old 10 ft by 4 ft pieces of carpet over the cable every 20 ft or so for safety (I keep some old carpet on hand for just such purposes), that will stop a broken 1/2" cable from whipping.
Tried once to pull a 3 ft dia 550 YO Dfir stump (about 4 ft high) with a 12,000 # roller chain comealong and one block . Had heard the stump would pull over in a few weeks period if the comealong were given a good tightening every day. Gave up a month later, real solid - tie point was a > 1000 YO stump nearby.
You may also get some good suggestions by posting your quandry over at http://www.arboristsite.com.
The attachment method would also get rid of about any tree.
the carpet on the cable???
cable whip dampening system???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Yep! a dampening that works good also is routing the cable thru smaller tree tops. On the 168 ft cottonwood job, first try was a cable at about 70 ft up (bow and arrow w/monfilament followed by nylon rope and then steel cable).
Tried a 'running jerk' to pull that cottowood with some old (knew it had flaws) 7/16" cable tied to back of JD440. Snapped that cable about right in the middle, took off a bunch of tree limbs of 1-2" dia real easy - big 'brush cutter'! Didn't have carpet over that one, just a couple old sweatshirts tied on 15 ft and 30 ft back of the dozer, the sweatshirts did slap up against the grating across the back of the Rops/fops. The tree only swayed a little. Also tried one block with better cable, that didn't pull it either, so went with the 2 block setup with remote control finally.
Usually put a 2nd choker or chain with slack on the block to catch it if the primary choker fails (never had it happen) but have read of the blocks punching thru dozer cages when a 3/4 choker breaks.
other than a funny story, i have little useful to add:
about 20 yrs ago a buddy of mine wanted to pull down some elms (maybe 45' tall tops, 15"-18" at the base) in his backyard. so we set about slinging a rope around branches about 20+ feet up and hooking up to his trusty old ford f150 and tipped over 3 or 4 of them in a satisfactory fashion before he decided to take down a couple more in another part of the yard. he tells his little brother (14 yrs old or so) to move some lightweight wire fencing out of the way, goes in the house for a minute and came back to resume our task. after pulling forward and backing up a few times, his transmission completely seized up- he hops out of the truck and there is a basketball sized wad of wire wrapped around his forward U-joint! it took us about a half hour to cut it off- his brother ran away after the cussing started...
good luck!
m
Thanks everyone for the input. What a wealth of opinions. I especially liked Junkhounds suggestion to use a remote on an electric winch and stand well clear.The image of a catapulted pickup truck is a bit sobering. The stories about the aftermath of a snapped winch cable even more so.BTW, The technique for getting a line up in the tree is pretty simple. I have an giant sling shot called a "big shot" that launches a lead shot filled throw bag with a slick nylon line into the tree tops. It is fairly accurate with some practice.I have mainly used the pulling technique to control the direction of fall on trees I am actually cutting without any secrecy. I just cut a wedge out of the side I am pulling on and make a slight cut into the backside and pull it down with a tractor. I doubt I am exerting more than 1 or 2 thousand lbs of pull with a 5000lb rubber tired tractor but it works great for small 60 to 70 foot trees.If I do go completely loco and try this out I will be sure to set up the video camera with instructions in my will for the tape to be sent to the Darwing awards.Keep the ideas coming,Thanks, Karl
I know nothing about trees but I have a mental picture in my head.
Someone mentioned that Eucalyptus trees are very flexible. I imagine your anchor point giving away (or the cable snapping) and seeing an F350 catapult a few hundred yards.
Could be very entertaining. With video you would be set for first place in the darwin awards.
Jon Blakemore
I had thougt of the sling shot too...
keep the NFH in mind...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
NFH?
Jon Blakemore
neighbor from hell...
as in where to aim the truck...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Edited 3/3/2005 11:57 am ET by IMERC
I see headlines in your future-
Attempt to skirt city ordinancce results in towtruck becoming a two ton projectile.
Slingshots, anyone?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
As a guy who does this kind of thing for a living, this has been a pretty interesting thread so far.
Think there's been some pretty good advice so far, and a few cautions well worth considering. Trouble is, what works in one situation may not work on another, and without a picture or two, I'd hesitate to offer suggestions.
But to echo a few cautions:
Shallow roots or not, this is a big, heavy tree. No matter what you're pulling with, this tree is more than likely going to fall in the direction of it's lean. You can steer smaller trees with line pulls, but this one is gonna have leverage. While you've considered the force of the line pull required, you also need to consider the ballast. If you miscalculate, and the tree decides to go in a different direction, chances are the tree seriously outweighs your truck.
A steel cable that parts in the middle WILL slice a man in half. Doesn't matter is its 1/4 inch or 4 inch. Carpets, blankets, etc will mitigate some of the whip forces on a short cable, but I'd not rely on carpet to do much good on the length of cable you're talking about here. Stay well outside it's triangle of reaction. I've seen the aftermath of a guy sliced by a parted winch cable - it's not pretty.
Assuming you kill it first, carefully consider how long to wait between it's death and removal. What will happen if it topples on it's own in the meantime?
Seriously, I'd follow the advise on trying for the insurance Co buy-in, aplying for a variance to the local code, playing up the problems from falling limbs, whatever, then getting a pro to take this tree down. It's simply too big to play with. Mr. Murphy is alive and well - sounds like this would be a perfect place for him to visit.
I'd really like to opportunity to watch a tree this big come down. What ever you end up doing, make sure you're there to tell the story.
The one thing I've learned from much smaller trees is that it's a mistake to cut it down and leave a stump. It's much easier to remove the stump if you leave enough of the trunk to use as a lever.
-- J.S.
My vote is to trench around it, cutting all roots or discreetly kill them with chemicals. And just hope you don't get a big windstorm in the year or so it takes them to die. Maybe tie them all to each other.
BTW, what happens if you cut them and tell the city you aren't paying the fine? You get a lien on your property or what? Do the Henchmen of Leningrad show up late one night and teach you a lesson?
MERC.
DJ, You asked"BTW, what happens if you cut them and tell the city you aren't paying the fine? You get a lien on your property or what? Do the Henchmen of Leningrad show up late one night and teach you a lesson?"I copied this from the site I linked to in an earlier message.http://www.robertsward.com/euc_essay.htmlSo it was, after a decade of unsuccessfully fighting for permission to ax our grove -- our trees, our property, our home -- a retired college professor and a staunch environmentalist, I hired a roustabout tree cutter to take them out.The eucalyptus police, as locals call them, were quick to arrive.Suddenly we were faced with a fine of $2500, payable within forty-eight hours or else, the "else" being an additional fine of $2500. for each day we delayed and, if we didn't pay up as required, a lien on our house."That's enough about the trees," says my wife, "enough already."This is the original link with more in depth on the local bureaucratic take on eucalyptushttp://www.robertsward.com/rsward_bluegum.htmlkarl
Thanks for the clarification. In all the noise I missed the original links.
I'd retain a property rights lawyer. Certainly there is no constitutional law by which they can tell you have to live under this "rain of terror". I also like the insurance approach. Insurance companies can exert some serious pressure on politicians. Maybe you should find out who has the liability insurance for the town and forward the articles to them about the increased danger. Of course, that just might result in your property taxes going up to cover the increased insurance premium.
I wonder if there is a disease that will kill them. Get you hands on some of that and clean the whole state out in a couple of years.
MERC.
I'm in Belmont, CA and trees are a big, big deal here. I will general the construction of my sister's house next door to me and there is a large oak right square in the middle of the lot. The drag is that it has already been given a less-than-healthy diagnosis by the arborist with the City who did my lot prior to construction. But, I think my sister is still going to have to "pay" to get that thing out of there. Since it is winter, our storm period, it seems like a natural for it to "fall" in the next month or so; problem, however, may be one neighbor up the street who is the eyes of the neighborhood (he accused me of dragging a dead deer up on the City road easement so I wouldn't have to pay the disposal fee if it was "off road"...who? Little ol' moi?).
I was thinking when I had a piece of equipment on site last month, we should have strapped the oak tree and given it a good tug.
Interesting though, here in Belmont ukes and Monterey Pines are junk trees and can be done away with at a whim.
I'm not tree hugger but I hate to see a good tree go down unless it is a major nuisance. Does the ordinance say anything trimming it down? If not can you just kill the thing? Don't go for the root system as this might get to the others. You can certainly cut down a dead tree. Deem is agriculture and cut the thing down and sell it for lumber. yeah, now that's being green.
Tree, I like trees plenty but I over the last twenty or more years of observation of eucalyptus I have learned how they will quickly crowd out and dominate the native live oaks.These trees grow at a phenomenal rate and shoot up so tall that they are virtually impossible to trim into submission.The ones I want to remove are dropping limbs weighing well over a thousand pounds on the driveway at an average rate of two or three per year.I want to eliminate the falling limb hazard and allow some of the live oaks to fill out and re assert their presence as the native tree.I posted a link in my first two messages in this thread that documents a landowner far more articulate than I documenting the case against eucalyptus. I don't know if it is included in that specific link but he ended up cutting down his trees in conscious violation of the local ordinance and was fined with threat of much worse penalties if not paid immediately.Karl
I understand completely. Some non-native species shouldn't be covered by these rules. Can you kill the tree and then cut it down? Seems they don't have to know what killed it. You can drill the trunk and poison it or just cut some of the roots. A reasonably fast kill for a tree is to dig out around the trunk and roots and just pour dry cement on them and say your were landscaping. Don't cut the big roots for obvious reasons. The cement will suffocate the tree. You can also use a systemic poison but if the roots of a good tree cross it may spread and kill others. I'm guessing the girth on a 100' tree like that would make some good lumber. I'm sure there are other creative ways to do this that stupidity has discoverd by accident.
Edited 3/4/2005 11:29 am ET by treefreak
Thanks for the thoughts,Following the same logic that protects eucalyptus the city also requires permits to cut clearly dead trees. Part of the reason for that is they require planting three replacement trees to mitigate the loss of the original tree. When you file for a permit they collect a fee that is refunded after the city has confirmed the replacement trees have been planted.This isn't necessarily an unsurmountable obstacle, just a sign of the endless bureaucracey.I still like the idea of a controlled fall of the tree with no signs of human intervention. Fallen trees are not routinely autopsied for signs of foul play. karl
Sorry you have to go through that. Sounds like one of those places that enforce the BS laws more than the criminal laws. Ever thought of getting a pet beaver?
grow grass under the trees, take your weedeater and beat the hell out of the trunks trimming the grass next to them 3-4 times a year = dead trees in 3-4 years...
boy, I see a lot of that in peoples yards....
common name: mower blight
"there's enough for everyone"
Ok, I didn't read all 66 posts, so forgive me if this is redundant.
I hate simplistic laws like this. There are (or should be) plenty of well-trained, intelligent foresters and ecologists around that could come up with sensible guidelines for urban forestry. Your eucalyptus is likely a non-native species. As others have said it can crowd out native species and have other negative impacts on the environment, as in the bird example given. Just because your tree is big, that doesn't make it valuable. I hope your municipality soon discovers some wisdom.
I was in the Monterey, CA area last week. I saw lots of groves of big eucalyptus thriving there (Grandis species, maybe?). I was wondering is they have any value for lumber or firewood, since they seem to grow so well.
Ironically, the central coast of California is the home of the Monterey pine. This tree found its way to Australia and became a phenomenally valuable timber species. And what did we get in return...a big weed?
Just about the only time I've called the police was a few years ago. I was doing a little job in town, when I saw a guy who I suspected of being a sleazy "contractor" next door. I had the unverified impression that he was the type of guy that would commit to all kinds of jobs, take deposits, and never do the work. Anyway, we had been hit by a violent storm that knocked down lots of trees and big limbs. This guy (with the homeowner watching) had a rope up in the top of a big healthy-looking ash that was about 50' tall and 18" dbh. The rope ran down, over a deck, around the corner of the house and was tied to the hitch on his Explorer. He was burning rubber in the driveway trying to pull the tree down. All I could figure was that they were trying to get the tree to destroy the old, rotten deck so it would look like storm damage and they could collect insurance money to build a new one. That tree was barely nodding in their direction, so I had no fears of them completing this idiotic scheme, but I couldn't stand the thought that they were trying to take a free ride on all the honest folks that pay their insurance premiums.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
I hate to be a pessimistic type, but I am reminded of the days growing up in a forest of Eucalyptus. My Dad hated the trees for all the reasons you are well aware of. And I spent every Saturday morning sweeping the patio collecting a giant mound of crap summer, spring, winter or fall- doesn't matter- before I could go out and play.
Anyway, It was a chore just trying to keep the new growth down on the ones he did cut down. From the generation of Chemicals Make the Man, my dad poured every caustic substance he could find on the stumps. He like to joke about it to friends- how he poured crankcase oil, creosote, sulfuric acid, solvents that aren't legal to own anymore etc. for over thirty years and they still put out shoots. (Funny, I played all around the yard and I'm norbal now.)
So I wouldn't put a lot of stock in poison affecting them anytime soon. They are hardy mothers. I reiterate- try the bird angle. If it will work anywhere, it is Santa Cruz. Also, I'm sure you could find someone local who would consult as to what crystals to use and mantras to chant to help your situation. (That's only half joking).
Perhaps you could be the one who changed a bad law. Good luck.
If you want to kill a stump that keeps trying to regrow.......pull off the new shoots as they appear.
It can only do that for so long before it gives up.
The old fella who owned my place first did that with a few.
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
AJ, How long does it usually take before the tree gives up. I have only seen it successful one time and I don't know how long it took. I am still working on one six years after cutting.Maybe the nor. Cal. climate is so optimal they just won't give up.karl
Sorry karl, no idea on time frame.
I suspect our winters are colder than yours, so that may have something to do with it. I do know that no tree can tolerate a trunk load of herbicide via some holes drilled in it.
We get the odd case that makes the news. A home owner has a doozy great tree in his yard. Been there forever.
Some neighbour decides they dont like it and want it cut. Owner says no way, it was here first, etc etc.
Then slowly like, the thing starts to turn brown. They investigate and find holes inthe trunk with a 'funny smell' in them. Then the tree gets cut cos its now dangerous.
Dirty thing to do to a treasured tree, just the ticket in your case I think.
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
Teo,You seem to have a really clear idea of exactly what I am dealing with. Continual clean up and unstoppable growth. AJ's suggestion of repeatedly removing the new growth does work in my experience but I have one stump that is still trying to regrow after 6 years.It is a good thing I dont own a winch as I am still skeptical that these trees would be able to resist ten or fifteen thousand pounds of lateral force if applied high enough up the trunk. Currently I have enough on my plate that exploring my theory is still just idle daydreaming.I will of course look into a darwin awards application and roll video if I ever do get a winch and some spare time.karl
I wonder if the shaped charge demolition guys might have a way of dealing with this?
-- J.S.
it's not all that long ago I could walk into the local hardware store and buy dynomite for just such a purpose...
set it up for the 4th of July and sell tickets...arrange for about 10 seconds between blasts...
can't see where that could get you in any trouble...
"there's enough for everyone"
karl, I live on 14th Ave, next to Schwann Lake and the bird sanctuary. Right beside a big grove of ukes. The amount of debris that rains down out of those trees is unbelievable. Let us know if you decide to pull. I want a back row seat.
Allen in Santa Cruz
Allen, If I ever get crazy enough to do this I will do it at 6am with only a close friend/helper and a video camera (as proof to claim the Darwin Award) will be present to witness my folly. If it worked, I have about ten total that will mysteriously topple over in the early morning hours. I better hold off on the spectators until I achieve the original objective of removing trees.These trees, as in your neighborhood, provide a beautiful sillhouette but they are a huge nuisance if you live under them or have to clean up after them.Karl
Karl, I would just move out of a locality that infringed on my civil rights as your community does. Tree laws like that constitute the taking of private property rights.
Its sad.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue, Thanks for the insight. Ever since reading a thread about property taxes I am skeptical about having any rights as property owner. In that thread I think 4lorn1 was the one who said ~ in essence no one owns their land, the requirement to pay property taxes merely gives you the right to use the land. If you stop paying taxes your ownership will be terminated.karl
OK, check these out...
http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/search.asp?stext=herbicide
http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/view_catalog_page.asp?id=1887