So I’m looking at a potential investment property (rental or maybe a flip) yesterday and took a close look at the circuit breaker panel to find that it’s got more circuits than what the max limit is for the panel. The panel (Square D) is rated for 30 circuits but see 33 (might’ve been 34) circuits total. Is it a big deal? I can get a sub-panel installed that’ll solve the problem but is it worth worrying about. Is it a fire hazard or other type of hazard? Anyone know how the mfg determines the limit of circuits for a panel (ie limiting factor)?<!—-><!—-> <!—->
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In the panel are: <!—-><!—->
6-220a circuits for the 2 heat pumps (1 ea for AC, 2 ea for heat strips & AHU blower motor). <!—-><!—->
1 for oven; <!—-><!—->
1 for dryer <!—-><!—->
1 for WH <!—-><!—->
1 for Well <!—-><!—->
For a total of 10 220a circuits. The remainder of the circuits are the usual outlets & lights, nothing fancy.<!—-> <!—->
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What would you do?
Replies
number of circuits usually refers to the number of breaker spaces, so are you saying that you have some double up breakers?? .. that many wouldn't be a problem. I've had a couple of discussions with inspectors on this, one said you could only have as many circuits as the panel has places to conect neturals (1 per hole), the other said "well you could calculate box fill" .. guess which I choose ..
thanks wane
I need to learn more about calcualting electrical requirements & box fill. I think I'm going to leave it as it is for now.
Wane is wrong.Current production panels have both a max number of slots and a maximum number of circuits.One common size in 200 amp panels are 30/40. They only have 30 slots, but 10 specific slots can accept tandem breakers so that you can have total of 40 different poles in the panel.Do you have full model number for that panel?I don't know how they come up with those ratings.
The panel # is HOMC30UC from Square D. I searched Square D 's site in hopes of finding the tech sheets for this panel but didn't find the 30/40 like you were saying and I have heard of before so I assumed it was a max of 30 but there are 30 slots as well. Maybe I missed on their site.
http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Electrical%20Distribution/Load%20Centers/QO%20Three%20Phase%20Load%20Centers/1100CT9901.pdf
That is a cover number.It is used on several panels.Look at page 75HOM30L150C S01 HOMC30UC
HOM30L200TCK S01 HOMC30UC
HOM3040L200TC S01 HOMC30UC
HOM3040L200TCK S01 HOMC30UCWithout looking it up Ithink that the 150 refers to a 150 amp panel, the 200 to 200 amp panel.The 30 is 30 slot/30 circuit panel.The 3040 is a 30 slot/40 circuit panel.More versions are shown on page 76 and 77.
Thanks Bill,
That was looking all Greek to me. It appeared to be a 200 am p service. I'll take a closer look to get the rest of the details for the panel. I'm back out there this morning trying to see if I can figure a solution to the drainage/water run-off that created the rot/termite haven. If I can't come up with a reasonable fix/regrade for that it's a no-go for me & this potential project house. If they had only set the foundation a few inches higher...
Thanks everyone else for ideas.
It's a 30/40. Found more problems while I was out there today. Looks like the field tile for the septic is too shallow or the liquid is running to the surface or for some other reason We'll see what they want to do re price. This drives it way down for me.
To bad.The panel problem would have been relatively inexpensive to fix.Rot and septic problems are much more $$$.But it $$$ in problems can drive down the price by $$$$$$ then it is worth it.But often the sellers are looking for the bigger fool.
>>> well you could calculate box fill
Wane, I'm pretty comfortable with electrical theory but I'm not sure of this terminology. Is it the same thing as calculating max number of connections and wires in a junction box? if not, is it something you can help explain in a minute or 2 please?
thank you.
For the panel is listed for 30 circuits, it's listed for 30 circuits, and installing 33 is them is not code compliant (in particular, it violates Article 110).
Whether this is a problem or not is up to your inspector.
As of right now none of the work that the house needs requires P&Is so an inspector is not the issue. I'm just not sure of the panel limits/capacity.
The fine print on the panel cover, or the panel makers' catalog, will tell you how many circuits are the maximum for that panel.
The Electric Code has long specified a maximum of 42 circuits. Also, for maybe the last decade, panel makers have been attempting to limit the number of "tandem" or "skinny" breakers that will fit into the panel.
While I do not worry very much about extra breakers, I do see that as a sign that the entire electrical system needs a close look... as it is very possible that other work was done by unqualified parties.
>I do see that as a sign that the entire electrical system needs a close look... <
A few years back this county stopped allowing the use of 14ga or smaller wiring (don't know why) but it took a while for the HOs/DIYs to realize this. This is why I scrutinize the panels closely as well as a safety margin. This one looks reasonably well done (some DIYers are half way decent) but the skinnies were kind of flag, not a bad flag but something to raise my suspicion.
that link you posted may have the info you need about the interior
and those tandems.. on ppg 70 and 71but you will need the interior part number to match yours with the styles shown.
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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call an electrician pronto.
Splintergoupie,
Not time yet for the electrician since I don't own the property yet. It's got several significant issues even though its less than 10yrs old. Nothing like doing it right the first time.
"Splintergoupie,"hey hey, what's that? Who you calling a groupie? I work in this industry, I don't hang by the sidelines and shake my #$%ss.Building that is, not electrical. I'm hate electrical.
woops! sorry about that. it was early and I got you confused with sg.
No offense taken if you didn't mean it:)