I am a cabinet maker out of NJ, I recently bought a house with septic. Can anyone give me some advice or just answer my questions?
1- Under normal conditions will the tank be filled with water?
2- How often will we have the tank emptied (4 people in house)
3-What can I do to make the system run better
4-Last if not least, How much does a new system cost?
Thank you for the help, LMC
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Replies
I'll answer all your Qs, but let me ask you these things first: Does your septic system consist of a septic tank and leach field? How old is the system - or at least, how old is the house? Does the system include any pumps? Does the system include any above ground type structures like mounds of dirt, or is it just a flat grassy area with a tank at one edge?
Edited 4/13/2006 6:45 am ET by Matt
Thanks guys, Matt
No pumps, system is about 30 years I think, Not sure thought, The man that sold the house said he had the leach fields redone right before he sold the house to us. There are a few trees around the system,I can take a picture of the area and show you. I notice that the washing machine discharge hose was backing up, this is the lowest trap in the house and is why I became concerned about the septic. The tank has not been emptied in a year, so I have a guy coming today to empty tank, They say its 190.00 for the first 1000 gallons. I live in southern NJ.
Thanx guys, Lou
I'll get that picture out
the tank will be full of water at all times.My parents house was built in 72 and never been pump, and does not need it.My system four years ago cost me $1200 complete.get rid of any trees by the leech lines, they will destroy the system by their roots growing into the pipes.
Wow, $1200.00 now that is a pretty good deal. I redid mine a few years ago, The 2000 gallon concete tank was $2000.00 delivered. Here in Wisconsin we are required to either pump the tank every three years or have it inspected. Cost of an inspection and pumping the tank are about the same. Roger
You will hear stories of folks who haven't had their septic system pumped for 20-30 years. This does not mean that the tanks did not need pumping. When a system is downhill enough or in porous enough soil it can fail almost completely without causing a backup.The purpose of pumping is to keep sludge out of the leach field. Sludge gets into the leach field and clogs the gaps between soil particles, causing the soil to stop absorbing water. If there's enough pressure behind the water it will force itself out towards the surface. If not, the system will back up.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Amen.
As a health dept. employee, I've seen a lot of septic system failures. A frequent comment from the owner of a failing system is "It worked fine until a few weeks ago. I've never even had to pump the tank." A look at the distribution box or drainfield trenches usually shows an accumulation of sludge.
And, pumping the tank is cheap insurance. If it costs $200 to pump a tank, it would cost $1000 to pump it 5 times in 30 years. An inexpensive replacement would cost three times that much, and many systems don't last 30 years if they're never maintained.
A lot of variables as with most things but here you go.
1- Under normal conditions will the tank be filled with water?
Yes. There is an outlet pipe to your effluent fields and the liquid should be up to this level.
2- How often will we have the tank emptied (4 people in house)
Depends on the size of the tank and whether people are in the house full-time. I've seen a pumping schedule but no longer have it. It also depends on whether the fields are working at full capacity and not clogged. A lot of people I know have their tanks pumped once every two years. With many people in a house and with an old system, once a year might be better. With a big system (5 bedroom septic) and a couple that works full-time, the schedule is something like every 7 years. You might want to pump it at some regular interval and see how much 'sludge' has accumulated.
3-What can I do to make the system run better
Don't put things like grease down the drain. Also note that your septic is not a trash receptacle. Don't be putting other junk down the toilet. I've heard mixed things about the bacteria packages that you can dump once a month or so. Some people say they are a waste of money.
4-Last if not least, How much does a new system cost?
Depends. If you have good soil the has the proper perking capacity you'll be in good shape. My brother put a 3 bedroom system in at his property in NC for $3,000. I live in CT with a lot of ledge so we had to bring in very expensive septic sand. It cost us a hair under $35,000. It was a big system but still.
Good luck.
Our septic tank has never been emptied in the 13 years we've lived here - the top fell in 9 years ago, 'cuz it was a 40-year old homebuilt, but I just put some sectional concrete slabs on for $100.00. We've now got kids 2, 5, and 8, six bathrooms, two laundry rooms, two kitchens, a garbage disposal we only use SPARINGLY, and we try not to let too much grease go down the drain.
Growing up down the street, my parents had the tank pumped once in 28 years, and that was when they put in a new leach field.
Our soil is pretty much red clay (near Atlanta)
I think the tank keeps a good amount of water in it - at least up to the leach outflow level.
Forrest
1- Under normal conditions will the tank be filled with water?
Yes, it should be filled to within about a foot or so of the top of the tank. There is an outflow pipe near the top of the tank that regulates the water level in the tank. It has a 'T' fitting on it to keep solid material from going out into the leach field. If the tank is full to the top of the access hole, you have a problem.
2- How often will we have the tank emptied (4 people in house)
I believe a 5 year interval is considered the most you can go, however we have been in our "new" house for 6 years with never having it pumped - 2 people, 4 bedroom system. My sister has a ~90 year old vacation house that has been in the family for ~40 years and it has to be pumped yearly because the field is very pour, and likely worn out. If the system was replaced within the last year, and you feel it really necessary to pump it, that should only be the first step in an evaluation/repair plan.
3-What can I do to make the system run better
They have those additives that you flush down the toilet, but I don't think they are necessary except that they might help a new system "get going". Can't hurt though. Costs $5 at your local big box or hardware. As previous poster said though, be somewhat careful what gets put down the drain - definitely no 'feminine sanitary napkins'. Also, be aware that chlorine bleach kills the (good) bacteria in the system, so use it somewhat sparingly. It is the bacteria that makes the system work, and that is essentially what the septic system additives are.
4-Last if not least, How much does a new system cost?
$ part covered by previous post. The problem with replacing a field is that you either need to locate the field in a new area, or remove all the soil from the saturated field, and replace it with suitable material - possibly sand.
If the seller of the house just replaced the system, no doubt he didn't do it just to be a nice guy.... It should be working properly though as it should have been installed to modern standards. Check at your county/municipality environmental health department for records on the new install. In my area, you have to submit some kind of plan to get the septic permit. Also, whoever installed the new system should at least be willing to come out for a free consultation, and they undoubtedly know more about your system than anyone else.
Re your washing machine, with the house we currently live in the washer pumps out into the septic system, which is normally the case, however a house I had in the past, the washer was served by a separate "mini tank" and a stone filled pit. In your case, perhaps you just have an obstruction in the trap/piping for the washer?
Southern NJ - would you say the soil in your area is quite sandy, more silt, or what?
The only things that should go in your septic tank (other than water from the laundry, dishwasher, tubs and sinks) should pass through your body first.
Pete Duffy, Handyman
Do you put your soiled toilet paper in the waste basket?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
No, I re-roll it on the roll.
Save a tree!Pete Duffy, Handyman
I love septic system questions, since they are the only ones on this site for which I really have some expertise! Several of the posters have already given good answers, but I'll add my 2 cents worth also.
1. A septic tank should be full to the outlet level of the tank. The contents are sludge (heavy stuff that accumulates on the bottom), liquid, and scum (grease, etc. that floats on top of the liquid). For a picture go to this link http://www.vdh.virginia.gov/onsite/Howitworks/SepticTank.asp
2. How often you need to pump depends on the size of the tank, and the amount of sewage generated in the house. The point of pumping is to remove the sludge and scum before they accumulate to the point that they flow out of the tank and into the drainfield, causing clogging and failure of the absorption field. A pumper can measure the depth of the sludge and determine whether the tank should be pumped, but usually it's just about as inexpensive to simply have the tank pumped periodically. Every five years is a typical rule of thumb.
3. There are a number of things that you can do to help the system work better. Mostly, don't overload the system with water, don't dispose of items that won't be digested in the tank (like plastics), and minimize the amount of grease that goes down the drain. Here's a link to more homeowner info http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/nsfc/nsfc_septicnews.htm
An "effluent filter" installed on the outlet may help prolong the life of the system. Additives are not really necessary. All of the bacteria that is needed to make the system work come from the users.
4. As others have noted, system costs are highly variable.
Hope the info helps.
Hi Jim,
We are just about ready to move to a "new" system, it has been, pumped, inspected, expanded. The installer tells us, as we've read above, to not put anything into the system you would not ingest yourself. Makes sense to me.
He also mentioned to not waste $ on special additives. His recommendation is to pour the contents of a bakers yeast packet into the system once a month to keep the bacteria level up. Any thoughts on that?
We have never been on a septic system before so it's all new to us.
bum...keep smiling...makes 'em wonder what you're up to !!
You don't need the yeast. In theory, in a new system, it might help slightly to introduce some appropriate beasties, but yeast isn't it, and unless you're the Boy in the Bubble, what comes out of you contains plenty of beasties.Actually, if you want to "prime" the system, probably a handful of dirt would be the best choice.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
As far as additives go, there really haven't been any independent studies showing that they work--or that they cause problems. One issue with some is that if they really do "break up" grease or sludge, then that matter is more likely to flow in the absorption field.
I wouldn't think that a packet of baker's yeast would do any harm. Might not do any good, either, but for those who have a hard time not doing something (I have a hard time fighting the impulse to tinker) adding the yeast probably at least makes us feel better.
That Virgina site is cool...Clicked on the "pump" button several times just to watch the fill-empty cycle with sound.
My 2-year old daughter hit the "pump" button several times, too, at lunch time! The sound made her giggle
Forrest
Thanks. I'll pass that on to the designer, it'll make his day.
Jim - I have properties in Southern Central VA - mostly Mecklenburg County, now Halifax County too. There are lots of soil problems. Doers the state allow the owner to excavate the existing soil and replace it with sand or more suitable drainage? Are there any on site disposals that will work if the soil is really bad?
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
These days there are a large variety of proprietary, patented systems, generally referred to as "alternative systems" designed to overcome various site limitations, like high water table, shallow soils, tight clays, etc. Some people say that there is a system for every property, although I think that is a bit optimistic.
Still, the main question is probably one of economics: how much can one afford to spend on sewage disposal and still keep the cost of developing a property within reason? In addition, there isn't any mechanism for approving onsite sewage disposal systems at the national level, so approval of a given system and the installation requirements for each system tend to vary from state to state.
Hi Lou,
I owned a home in NJ with a septic system for 13 years;
1) The tank would be filled to the level of the outfeed (to the distribution box to leech field)
2) Cannot answer that question
3) No grease down the drain, nothing that is not bio-degradable down drain. Don't stress the system wih too much water, ie. don't run the dishwasher and washing machine the same time as taking shower. Also was recommened to me to use liquid dishwashing and washing detergents rather than powders, as the powders build up in the tank.
4) In 1992 a 'new code' NJ system cost me 10K. That was in central NJ with not the greatest soils in the world, your mileage may vary.
Thankfully we never had a issue with our system, but many others in our development had many...and you don;t want to go there
A couple of observations I've made over the years.
New homeowners tend to blow out systems. If a 20 year old system that worked fine for 2 people suddenly supports 4 new arrivals washing everything as it gets unpacked .... expect problems.
Pumping out from the inspection pipe is worthless and can cause system problems. If the pumper doesn't dig up the manhole don't bother.
A certain amount of undigestable material will accumulate in the tank. Never pumping it is a bad idea.
If your local health dept is involved with system design and it's life expectancy be afraid.
Never have a system installed if you can't be there to watch.... I really got screwed on this one, got 1/2 the drain field I payed for.
1. Generally there are two halves to the tank, with a partition between. The first part should be full (with water) to the point of overflowing into the second, and the second should be full up to the bottom edge of the outlet pipe.
2. For a new system, have it pumped after maybe 2 years. Ask the pumper guy how full it was with sludge (they're more honest than lawyers, at least). You basically want to get the thing pumped before the first section fills with sludge and the sludge starts overflowing into the second section. Future pumpout timing should be based on that, but probably no longer than 6 years between jobs.
For a "used" system get it pumped within the year, and then do as above.
3. Don't put grease, meat, or any sort of pesticide down the drain. If you have a garbage disposal, just use it to grind up the small bits that rince off a "tiped off" plate, not large amounts of stuff. Don't waste your money on additives.
4. Too much.
Lou,
I live in Northern NJ. I had a new field put in in 2001, cost $18,000. I have it pumped every two years. The pumping cost $200. At that price I don,t understand why people let there systems go. $100 a year is such cheap insurance verses a new system of $15,000 to 20,000.
Danny
Before we closed on our house about 1-1/2 years ago, we had a home inspector and a separate septic inspector check things out. They were both recommended to me by a friend, an engineer who had briefly worked for the home inspection company and had dealt with the septic inspector. I believe this guy designs systems, also.
He showed up at the same time as the home inspector, so I got it all taken care of at the same time. Both of these guys much prefer to have the client there while they are conducting the inspection, so issues can be pointed out and questions answered.
His inspection consisted of opening the tank to check it's condition, then he dug a hole into the leach field. In my case, the system seemed to be in good condition - the crushed stone was white and dry except at the very bottom of the stone layer. If it had been black up through most of the stone, then that would indicate the system was becoming plugged.
It cost me about $200 for the septic inspection. Cheap insurance and peace of mind.
I'd assume that there ought to be someone in your area that would do the same.
Don
All, I've been working with a local septic designer and installer, and he suggested a gravel-less system in the leach field. It apparently consists of the leach pipe, and a dome cover over it, set in a 36" wide trench. Does anyone have any experience with these systems? One interesting thing that he told me was that one thing that will "kill" the critters in the system is if someone in the house is on chemotherapy - apparently the toxic treatment passes down the toilet and kills all of the bacteria. Thanks
I've read about the dome scheme. No long-term track record, and it may give your local inspector conniptions, but it sounds like a good system.Gotta work even harder to keep traffic off, though.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
I think you're describing the "Infiltrator" (http://www.infiltratorsystems.com/) or a similar system. I've seen them used for around 15 years in this area, but in terms of septic systems, that really isn't a "long-term track record" as DanH points out. But I haven't seen any problems due to use of the chambers. To put it another way, any problems would have occurred regardless of the type of system installed.
The manufacturer claims that they work better than gravel, because with the chambers there is no gravel interface with the soil to prevent infiltration. I think that the jury is still out on that, but some areas do allow an overall reduction in the required absorption area with the chamber system.
They do have some real advantages over gravel, though, in that they are lightweight and can be installed by one person.
my take, have designed and installed a few systems, first was own house in 1971.
1- Under normal conditions will the tank be filled with water?
yes, as previously stated
2- How often will we have the tank emptied (4 people in house)
This is where others disagree. I have Never pumped my own system (34 years) and there is only 4" of sludge in the 1st compartment, none in the second.
I have however, taken the manhole off every 10 years and checked the sludge level.
And, - this is where it gets gruesome?, have twice shoveled by hand the top foot of non-decomposed celluose toilet paper off the top of the 1st chamber (it went on the garden in the fall after harvest) 1st in 1982, last in 1992 (kids are gone after that, much less paper!, no need in 2002). 6 more years till next check, probably time for another shovel job then. Very interesting biology lesson, the anerobic type worms in the tissue residue were interesting to say the least, would make a great high school science project. The 1983 and 1993 garden produce were records, the cabbage especially loved it.
*edit ps - if you shovel off your own tank, you find out what brand of condoms your in-laws, house-guests, maybe kids? have used <:( The wrappers do note even fade!
3-What can I do to make the system run better
no Tide detergent, no disposal, actually no hint of grease when I shoveled my tank so we let grease go in.
4-Last if not least, How much does a new system cost?
In PNW, around $12k hired these days; however, if you have 4 ft of soil and perk sufficient for a gravity system (rare approval these days here) you can DIY for about $400 if you have your own backhoe/dump, supply your own labor, and haul your own gravel <G>
Edited 4/13/2006 5:59 pm ET by junkhound
How does one tell there is only 4" of sludge in a tank full of water?
And I'm not eating anything out of your garden....
Thank You everyone for your advice, it has been very helpful. keep it coming I want to overdose on the wealth of information.
Thanx again, Lou
Put a length of wood (2x2 works well) down thru the brown water, the sludge depth is indicated by the amount of the sticky sludge stuck to the bottom of the 2x2 for as deep as the sludge is.
Ya need to clear a hole in the top layer of toilet paper first so it does not wipe the sludge off the stick. The top layer looks like brown paper machie', after 10 years and kids, it can be a foot thick.
If you can arrange it, be there when the septic tank is pumped. That way you can ask questions and get any good advice that might be offered. Output baffle: Around here, most of the septic tanks have three covers and the pump operator usually opens the middle one to do the pumping. Make sure that the cover closest to the discharge pipe is one of the covers that is opened so that you can inspect the baffle that keeps floating stuff from going out the discharge pipe. My tank had a semi-circular clam shell type baffle over the discharge pipe opening, and the concrete around there degraded and the baffle fell to the bottom of the tank, leting the scum and stuff into the leach field. It only took about ten minutes for the operator to replace the baffle with a pvc one. Charmin toillet paper: My septic tank had a lot of paper floating on top and the guy doing the pumping asked if I used Charmin. I switched and when the tank was pumped next time there was less of a problem. My neighbor ( with a different pumping company) had the same experience.
Actually it can be measured with a stick wrapped in white cloth inserted into the tank. Each layer will have a distinct look. Or if you want to be "high tech" you can use a Sludge Judge http://www.onsiteconsortium.org/graphics/Sludge_Judge_2.jpg
I live in a house that is over 50 years old and had a Septic system. The system was probably gone when we bought the house, but the house inspections don't really cover septic issues.
I have since tied into the city, since it was law to tie in if there was a line available. After alot of money spent on the city hookup, I'm actually happy everytime it rains hard or when we would have a long freeze spell (Michigan).
Helpful hints:
If it's yellow be mellow if it's brown flush it down.
Having 4 women in the house there is alot of showers, laundry, toilet paper
etc...
• Single ply toilet paper
• If you can divert the grey water out of the house while doing laundry, do it.
• No leaky faucets or running toilets, all water will go into the tank.
• No need for additives, waste of money what comes out of your body will break down anything.
• Lift the lid on the tank after heavy rains to see the level in the tank,
if the tank is filling up with water you may have problems.
• Ask questions to the Septic Company that pumps the tank hopefully they are the same company that has been servicing it for a long time.
• Be home when they empty the tank and make sure they backflush the tank with water.
• Also dump a 5 gallon bucket of water into the farthest toilet while the guy is pumping the tank this will clear the lines.
•Don't drive any heavy equipment over your field, your tiles could be crushed
since they may be made of clay.
• Also check the distribution box if you have one it's located away from your tank, this is where all the liquids go before thay hit the field.
Last thing if the toilet that is closes to your tank overflows, it's time to pump the tank.
Good Luck,
Fred
> Last thing if the toilet that is closes to your tank overflows, it's
> time to pump the tank.When the toilet overflows you're about 5 years past time to pump the tank -- time to install a new leach field.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison