Okay Boys and Girls –
Please keep in mind I am a City Boy and am just reaquainting myself with suburban, wood frame construction. In NYC apt renovations we don’t come across these issues.
So, I rough framed for and installed 3 full height windows. Above the windows is a contiuous header with posts between each window. The Arch. spec’d Simpson Strong-Tie T Strap Ties to connect the posts to the header. Done, no problem… until we sheetrock.
See, the ties have added a thickness to the framing and then the nail heads add an additional thickness. When sheetrocking the GWB bends over the fastening system – no longer tight to the posts – and creates a hump. Heck, we take a hammer to a 2x and whack the GWB onto the nailheads. It pops at first and them gets crushed – but it is still higher at those areas than the rest of the wall surrounding the windows. When I install the extension jambs, the jambs are either 1/4″ shy or 1/4″ proud of the window jambs.
What’s the solution? Do I wait until I trim and carve out the GWB in inset/ recess the trim? Scribing the trim to the humb would be VERY difficult. Either way it is not ideal or even close.
Should I have installed a filler shim for the full length of the post to accomodate for this add’l thickness?
I am certain I am not the first person to come across this predicament.
Frankie
The first rule of Fight Club is – you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is – you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Edited 4/28/2005 4:12 pm ET by Frankie
Replies
I hate those things and nail plates and...................
I don't know if you could let the bracket into the framing.
Cut out the back of the SR.
Cut out the sheetrock entirely where the bracket is and Durabond or similiar to patch.
Will the casing cover this area?
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
The casing is only 3" and does not cover the entire bump. If I do what you write, the casing will look buried.I don't know what other option I have. This issue will come up again and I want to find a solution, maybe for now, but also for the future. Mortising it into the rough framing is not an option. maybe I am being to much of a perfectionist and this is just the nature of the beast, but I have not noticed this issue in other houses. Maybe they aren't using these ties or I'm not looking well enough. I dunno.FrankieThe first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
The solution is to make your own extensions.
EZ. And I'm not kidding.
I am/ have made my own extensions. The extensions aren't the problem. It is the gwb does not stay flush with the jambs all the way around the window.At the two top corners they are 1/4" proud of the jambs, while for the rest of the sides- 7' each side - they are perfectly flush!What do I do?FrankieThe first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Edited 4/28/2005 8:50 pm ET by Frankie
Frankie,
I don't know what you read that I wrote to you where the casing would end up buried.
Cut the rock out where it is allready broken now anyway, and patch it in with D-Bond to be flush with the rest of the rock.
Of course I am assuming that you have not applied the trim yet.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
At the two top corners they are 1/4" proud of the jambs,
Remove 1/4".
Next time make your extensions after the drywall.
Scribe and cut straight with compromise in mind.(straight tapered cut)
If you sc ribe the jamb ext to the uneven gwb, the casing will be wavey lie a wet noodle and look horrible. Ext jambs are always made after drywall.FrankieThe first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Read my post again.
Cut straight but tapered and compromise.
Ok.
One more time.
You scribe the extension but you don't follow the line when you cut.
Your cut is straight and you select 2 points. One near the top and one near the bottom.
Compromise. Make the 1/4" Bump or hump? 1/8" EZier to use a larger hammer.
Now, how do you cut so straight -accurate-tapered and EZ?
Use a straight edge. EZ.
Edited 4/28/2005 9:40 pm ET by YCFriend
Is it possible to stop the 1/2-inch rock work short of these connector areas, then rock in with two thickness of 1/4 GWB, leaving out the first layer where you have the interference?
Ugh, What a PITA!FrankieThe first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
OK, I agree that suggestion is a PITA.
Let's see. You framed this, right? You're the man, start to finish, frame it, rock it, trim it?
So, step 1, framing. Pop in all this sheet metal and related nails that pooches bulges of metal inboard of the stud line. You must have been thinking you had a future solution.
Step 2, sheetrock. Slap it up, screw it on, and hey? What's that bulge about? No worry, we'll solve it later.
Step 3, trim out. Things don't look that easy to fix, now. Write to Breaktime.
ANY fix at ANY stage of the work, to deal with this, is gonna be some level of a PITA.
Here's another thought off the top of my head, but it only can work if you haven't hung the rock yet.
Before slamming up a piece of gypboard and covering up your too-much-metal things, dust them with blue chalk, slap up the board, slam it on its face, at the bulges, using a scrap piece of sheet for a caul, then take the board down before fastening. Look for the telltale blue on the back side, then use a knife and ripper to hog out enough paper and gyp core in the vicinity of the interferece, so the board will lay flat. Now, pop it up and get on with your life.
I could suggest the little genie-in-the-bottle method, in which you rub the bottle, genie comes out, asks you for your wish, you go, like, I want the bulges gone, genie says, yes, master, but Wal-Mart's all sold out of those little bottles.
You're exactly correct. I was involved from cutting the first stud/ post to fitting the jambs and trim. I thought the nail heads and plate would be an issue so I made sure I drove them home. Figured I wasn't the first to have to deal; with this but had never heard others commenting on it. I thought I was over-stressing about it and so just went with the groove. Now, it's biting me in the arse.All the modifications mentioned, along with a few I came up with seem to be very labor intensive - either on the framing level or the drywall level. Never heard of framers framing with a router when using Strong-Toies and never seen a drywaller patching gwb as part of the SOP when hanging drywall.Maybe I am being too critical. I dunno. I think the solution in the future is to bang it into place and at the dents on the backside, hack out the drywall. I'll only need to do this where there will be trim. For full sheets of gwb and no trim, whack, whack, whack, done. NEXT!FrankieThe first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
" ugh! what a PITA"
Gene gets that a lots!!
I was going to suggest using 3/8" and floating out the area to match.
Set a router for the thickness of the t-strap, plus a little bit, and rout out the area to receive the strap. I did this for some timber-frame strapping and it was no big deal - don't even have to be really precise.
Use a bigger hammer!
2x + 23oz Douglas. WHACK! WHACK! WHACK! Nothing/ very little.FrankieThe first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I think he has too much interference, and a heavier beating won't work. Sheetrock doesn't compress much, if at all.
See if the archie will ok angle brackets on the sides of the post instead of Tee's on the face.
after you said "what a PITA" I have to admit I agreed for a second until I went back to your first post and saw you only have 3 windows to trim. What does that mean, 2 Simpson straps to deal with ?
I would have cut out the offending area an filled it in with Durabond 20 and would have been trimming in an hour.
carpenter in transition
4 actually, but your right for this situation. I am also looking fo a way to better address this in the future also.FrankieThe first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Frankie,
I get this all the time when trimming behind others, everyone leaves it for the trimmer.... and sometimes we even sluff it off on the painters :),
all kidding aside, If i have the job from start to finish and if i am on site when the rock is being hung I have the boys gouge out the back of the rock to accommodate for the steel.
If i don't notice that they didn't do that and the wall is already finished ( and probably primed ) I cut tapered jambs. 1/4" really is not a big deal, especially since the proud part is likely the top of the windows.
If rock is 1/4 proud at top you make the top extension jamb the size of the largest demintion... or a little shy and bang the offending area.
now you make up the side jambs to taper from the small dimension to the larger demention at the top in a straight line,
then you pre make the trim up and let it set up good ( use biscuits, pocket holes or whatever floats your boat and also whatever the trim will allow you to do ), then you put up your casing and bend the trim over to the wall on your high points.. sometimes you cant get it all and that is when i shim and leave it for the painter... the important thing is that the gap is not too large on the wall surface and that you do not bend the casing to the point that the HO will come by and ask " what in the H ell is that ?"
its not that hard, but a lot of fuss can be avoided if the GWB is hung flat. as to making the tapered jamb extensions.... I use my festool rail saw.
james
Thanks. In the future I will gouge out the backside of the gwb. Ugh.FrankieThe first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
57585.19 in reply to 57585.13
Hi James.
View ImageTake measurementsTop & Bottom
View Image Secure the fillerwith Smart Clamps
View Image Cut right onthe line
View Image Tapered cut
View Image
AHA! Now I understand what YOU are referring to. Sorry for the confusion.I am referring to a dif situation. Rather than dealing with a SIDEWALL having an unconformity/ bulge, I am dealing with the WINDOW WALL. The issue ocurs only at the top corners where the Strong-Tie adds wall thickness.I am going to take a photo and try to post it. I'll be back soon.BTW: I saw the photos you posted an a thread about a month or so ago. Great execution and documentation. I don't have one of those guides but I am sure it comes in handy. My method is to cut the filler on a 45 and then hand plane it to the scribe line. Your way is certainly faster.FrankieThe first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
In your situation, I will make the top extension smaller. 1/4" is to big to fix it
but 1/8" is much better. And you can always sand down the drywall for another 1/16".
Compromise?
Ok, here's what I am referring to. The first at center height and the second is at an upper corner where the Strong-Tie is sandwiched between the gwb and the framing.FrankieThe first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Second Attempt:Ok, here's what I am referring to. The first at center height and the second is at an upper corner where the Strong-Tie is sandwiched between the gwb and the framing.
FrankieThe first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Frankie.
This is an ez problem.
Another way is to make your extensions to the largest width and use
JC with plaster of paris (or durabond) to cover the opening after you install the trim.
If you don't like my way...I go to Sahara.
On renovation work the first thing you have to learn is plastering.
Similar situation on the countertops, door trim, windows,base moldings.crown moldings etc, etc,
What's Sahara? The desert?FrankieThe first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
desert?
No. The ocean of sand.
Frankie
Just cut a taper for the side jambs, it will be fine... I deal with this crap all the time in california... land of steel connectors everywhere... trust me on the taper, it will work fine. If you don't have a saw guide system yet get one... in the interm I would use a shooting board.
next time gouge out the back of the rock while your hanging it... or if not hanging it have a talk with the hangers, GC or anyone else who will make your life EZier ( plug for Dino )... It costs less to make the GWB flat than to dick about with cutting tapers in extenton jambs.
james
I do lotsa trim work in lotsa old houses.
Old houses have lotsa wavy/bumpy/crooked plaster.
simply rip a straight extension jamb to the widest measurment. For other situations ... U could taper ... but U got 2 fat corners and a thin middle.
No sense screwing around .. just rip them straight.
Then ... trim. 99% of the time ... the trim stock bends.
if not ... either caulk or durobond.
or ... float the walls with durobond.
what's the trim finish? If it's paint grade I have no idea why the works not been done for days and we're having this conversation.
btw ... for stain grade with big gaps .... rip "scribes" ... taper to fit ... glue and squeaze in ... simple too. Remerber ... match the "side grain" ...
Jeff
Jeff
Jeff,
I'm sure its paint grade or there would have been much more care insuring that the wall plane was flat.. at least in my shop.
james
another thought...
for the truly sick, Most trim has a back plough... its usually about 3/32nds to 1/8.... scripe the high side to the max and caulk the rest..... or make the plough deeper and scribe the whole thing, It would be the worlds most picky paint grade install ever.
james
This time it is paint grade. Next time... I dunno.I like your decisiveness Jeff. That go get 'um attitude saves a lot of time, money and stress. I gotta be more like that.
Thanks,FrankieThe first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I shoulda taken the "before and after" of the crown I recently put up that just got caulked and painted.
upstairs is just caulked as of today ... but even with no primer U still wouldn't believe how bad the walls/ceiling gaps were prior to caulk. Bad plaster ... bad HO drywall.
But ... I forged ahead ... knowing full well my "applied coating specialist" would come in after me and make all my headaches disappear!
The stuff down stairs was as nad if not worse .... caulked and painted ... looks freaking fantastic! Just as it always does. I love having a great painted to follow behind me.
I'll take some pics of the worst of the bunch ... let ya see how good it can turn out.
Jeff
btw ... had another thot ...
if U do go heavy on the extension and it leaves the corners floating ...
back bevel the miters ... or ... if just soft pine casing ... relieve the back edge of the miter cut line with a utility knife .... makes it easier to push the whole deal back to the wall at the miters. They "bend" easier with less to bind back there.
Take away all the wood that don't show ... it's legal!
Jeff
btw ... had another thot ...
The first thot was ez and gives you a better job.
yeah ... but I don't like EZ fixes!
I'm too good at cutting "crooked" on the table saw.
I actually enjoy the challenge of ripping tapers free hand ... just kissing the pencil line ... on the table saw .... no guard ... no fence.
just me and the wood.
mano a mano!
someday I'll get smart and make my life EZ .... till then ... freehand willy I am.
Jeff
Jeff
That was me. me and Freud.And that stupid tool.
Few days ago i broke my slider (Anderson)
Please don't ask.
>>>>"I shoulda taken the "before and after" of the crown I recently put up that just got caulked and painted."Is this the same crown that required you to put 12' pieces in your Cherokee to drive in the rain?
Jon Blakemore
the stuff down stairs!
for the upstairs .. I was sworn to use the stock her husband bought years ago, before he passed away, for that planned project.
The guy musta watched over it close .... stored on the basement floor for at least 2 years .... not to damp ... not to dry ... straight as could be ... and stayed that way!
Plus ... he bought "just" enough ... I was getting scared looking at a 4' wall left ... till I searched thru the basement stock pile again ... and found one last piece ... 5' long!
Jeff
Wow, the HO supplied the materials and they got the quantity right?!? Good to know it happens sometimes.
Jon Blakemore
I'm not calling "1 ft "extra" " exactly right ...
I coulda fit the scrap pile in my shirt pocket!
Jeff
thanks for that, Jeff
ripping tapered ext jambs to me is the absolutely last resort
hate the way it looks
i probably could count the times i've done it on one or two hands
carpenter in transition
That's exactly what I pictured when you first described it.
It really isn't that hard to rout out 1/8" from the face of the 2x4 framing before you put the strap on. I wouldn't think twice about it. Not all framers carry a router with them on a job, but since you're doing the entire job, framing to trim - you do have one, right?
Hello Dino,
You are so close to selling me one of your guides..... I bet it is a killer combo with the Festool saw and dust collector. I wish i could make it out for one of your D mix demo's... guess i will have to keep trudging along with plaster.. am getting better with it, but your method sure seems EZer.
james
Hi James.
You are so close to selling me one of your guides.....
Next weekend in VA I will demo the killer combo.
Imagine a manual cnc to go. With all directional routing and integrated measuring system with repeatability on both sides of the blade.
Self squaring and miter with one touch clamping down to a toothpick.
And all the above in one unit. We call it, the Guide Control Unit.
I don't think that I have to try selling the Ez. You have to try to buy one.
That was good. I think I don't have to go to Sahara after all.
Pack the post with 1/8" shims up to the simpson connector, rock the post with 3/8" rock. If you use 5/8" rock on the walls and 3/8" on the post with 1/4" packing the bump will not be an issue.I have on occasion plowed out the framing for connections,it is a pita even when you plan for it.
mike
<<<
See, the ties have added a thickness to the framing and then the nail heads add an additional thickness. When sheetrocking the GWB bends over the fastening system - no longer tight to the posts - and creates a hump. Heck, we take a hammer to a 2x and whack the GWB onto the nailheads. It pops at first and them gets crushed - but it is still higher at those areas than the rest of the wall surrounding the windows. When I install the extension jambs, the jambs are either 1/4" shy or 1/4" proud of the window jambs. >>>
you can either rout the headers to relieve the hardware..
or rout the back of the sheetrock..
or install extension jambs for the max. dimension..
i'd solve the problem in the framing stage in the future
Routing the framing seems to be the fastest.Carvibg out the back side of the gwb seems to be the easiest and most low-tech.Now I have a plan. Thanks.FrankieThe first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club, someone yells Stop!, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule, only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule, one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule, no shirt, no shoes. Seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight.