Debating on which guide rail system to purchase. Want to use it for cutting plywood sheets, routing dados with the guide and cutting doors up to 1 3/4″. Have not used either but from some research these are some of the differences I have read about. The Festool has excellent dust collection, a plunge cut saw, will cut an 1 3/4″ and lies flat on the workpiece not elevated causing some variances in the cut. The Ez is more geared to customization such as the Bridge, the handle square , repeaters and some other accessories. Also, the price and the ability to use your existing saw without having to buy Festool blades.
One major point for me was the ability to make a straight cut and bevel cut on a 1 3/4″ door with the saw attached to the rail system. Was told for the EZ system needed an 8 1/4″ saw or ride a 7 1/4″ saw along the fence. Read somewhere about a Hilti saw. Went to a Hilti rep and the saw cuts 2 5/8″ deep. The Ez, I assume loses an inch with their rail system. Can anyone confirm cutting depth of either the 7 1/4″ or Hilti?
Does anyone have one or both systems who can give some feedback or other factors I have overlooked in which system to purchase? Final note, I do not have either system and have read the problems in the past on this subject, so I have no bias for either system. Just trying to choose the proper system. Thanks for any help.
Edited 3/23/2008 11:51 pm ET by Newpoint
Replies
Go to Saw Mill Creek and search for saws. There are a several that will do the 1 3/4 on the rail.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?f=26
You might search here at BT about the f-tool vs ez, been rehashed/gotten ugly many times. I am happy with my ez, it is an evolving product and has a lot of potential/capabilities.
Not sure how deep my Festool TS55 will go, but I had an EZ system before, and I like the Festool better now.
And if you get an EZ system with the Hilti saw, you'll be spending more than the Festool 55 setup.
A few things I like better:
-Absolutely 90 degree straight cut. With standard 7 1/4 circ saws, there's often enough flex in the pivot to where the cut is not PERFECT. With the Festool it is.
- Dust collection rocks.
- Can cut as close as 1/2" away from a wall with the saw.
-Plunge is handy and it's nice always being able to set the saw down immediately, no worries.
The Hilti saw is a SCREAMER! Loud as all get out when I checked it out, Festool saw doesn't seen so bad.
The Festool rails and saw just work like butter, the EZ setup never seemed as simplistically easy. I never even clamp the festool rails down. The festool rails anti-chip seems to work better as well, although that may be the better Festool blade.
Bottom line is the cuts ARE better, both to the left and right of the kerf. That may be cause the Festool blades are better, but I tried every high-quality 7 1/4" blade out there - Bosch C4 40 tooth, Hilti 40tooth, Frued avanti, cmt, etc. Not that many high-quality blades out there in 7 1/4, and those that are, do not last as long as the Festool blades.
Nice also on the Festool that at 90 or 45, the anti-chip stays the same.
JT
The Festool rails seem thinner than the EZ. Any problems with the Festool rails bending? Having to replace the rails would be an expensive. Thanks for your help.
Well, it's definitely a fact that they are much more fragile. As such, I do treat them with care.I remember once when I had a set of sawhorse tip over when using my EZ system. Bent the connecting bars a bit. If I had been using the Festool setup, probably would've ruined the rails.It boils down to the money. If you can afford a few extra bucks, you'll not regret the Festool.Want to save a few - use a different vac instead of the CT's. The Fein vacs are quiet and durable, or use a craptastic shopvac - won't affect your cut.If the money's still an issue, the EZ system is a great setup and had I not ran into a great CL Festool pile of stuff at a great price, I would still be happy using my EZ setup.I used mine with a Milwaukee saw that I modified with a dust port - had almost perfect dust collection with that setup.You'll only regret a Festool purchase once - on the way home BEFORE you use it.JT
My only gripe with the EZ (I've had it nearly 3 yrs) is when you change bevel from 0 to 45 you are cutting the edge strip. Not a big deal to keep the 0 and 45 edges marked and separate, but, if you need a 22.5 that's another set of strip(s). The same goes for the anti- chip inserts.
Unless you are serious about dust control, the EZ is great, especially if you can dedicate a 8 1/4" saw to it. Dino, the inventor was a BTer and is a great guy.
Jim
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Hold off for the DeWalt system. That looks impressive, I think someone here has a link.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Now you've got my interest. I haven't heard about a DeWalt system...and it's my job to try to hear about these things!Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
I seem to recall that Makita was also coming out with a guide rail system. I've got the EZ and like it.
If heavy hitters like Makita and Dewalt come out with systems, it will hopefully raise the bar, but unfortunately it might drive a guy like Dino out of business.
Someone posted links to it a month or two back.
I believe its only going to be available in the UK and Europe. At least at first.
Makita's system is already out. From the pics, it looks like they've licensed the Festool rail design as it looks identical.Not sure what markets it's available in, but apparently it sells for the same as the Festool.Justin - if you don't know about the new Dewalt system - you must not pay much attention to the posts round here - the Dewalt's been discussed 2-3 times with links.JT
Here's a couple links:
http://www.dewalt.co.uk/powertools/productdetails/catno/DWS520K/
http://www.makita.com/menu.php?pg=accessory_tbl&tag=acc_jig_acc&cat_tag=148&tbl=4&f=
Peach full,easy feelin'.
I've used both, and I have a 8 1/4 on the EZ - and I have the larger Festool with rails.
If you'll be breaking down plywood sheets where dust control is an issue the Festool is the better answer. If you are doing lots of bevel cuts with the rail, the Festool is the better answer. This is the one I use when cutting cabinet ply or flooring in a client's home.
If you don't need the dust control, or use it rarely, then go with the EZ and consider the PC 8 1/4, that is my set up. The EZ has lots of versatility and is fairly stout. I've found the plate that you attach to the saw for the EZ is something I like, don't have a good reason, just like it - makes the saw feel more stable and easier to use for me.
I bought the EZ first, and then bought the Festool when I had a job that required me to work inside a client's home, which was occupied at the time, to build the library shelves and cabinets with cherry and walnut ply and maple trim. The lady of the house wanted as little dust as possible, and she was willing to pay extra for cleanliness. She was very pleased with me and has referred me, so it paid off.
I cut a LOT of plywood with my Festool set-up,, especially ripping 8x4 sheets with the 2700 rail (I also have a 1400 for crosscuts). The flexibility in the rail is important because it allows the rail to confirm to the frequently slightly warped ply. This means that I can set the saw 1mm extra and not get parts where the blade hasn't gone all the way through which would happen with a stiff guide rail.
I cut on an 8x4 table with a sacrificial top, and setting the saw for just over the depth of the ply means I don't waste time and energy cutting more material than necessary. The rails only flex that way, the other way they are dead straight.
John
I have the EZ and have used it a lot for three years. Last year the company I work for got me a Festool. Of the two:
EZ is tougher, more accessories, and the owner/inventor/salesman stands behind his product.
Festool is cleaner/quieter/more accurate and is much easier to cut say a 3° bevel on a door. It's not as tough as the EZ though.
I like the Festool T55, the smaller saw, because it still cuts 1 3/4" but weighs much less than the bigger saw.
Couple of points FYI:My Ez rails were not cut square - didn't realize it til actually checking them with a good square.C trimmed them perfectly square and was able to finally get the rails aligned perfectly.Someone else mentioned that EZ doesn't reccomend butting up the rails when joining them, but I think they are more secure that way. If you use an EZ setup, might want to check your rail ends.Also, Festool announced a while back that their 3 year warranty would now be in effect no matter who owns the stuff. So used tools if within the 3 year are now fully covered by factory warranty.JT
I have the EZ and it's a nice setup and the owner is a top notch guy. The EZ does have problems though, such as getting repeated 90 degree cuts. Listen to Julian and Mike -- If I had to do it over again I would get the Festool.
Billy
I've had the Festool 55 for a while now and still love it: http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=37370.1
.
.
"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey wating for you."
Nice setup - how did you go about cutting the half laps? The bottoms of the cuts look perfectly flat.
Thanks.
I just did the sides on the miter saw and finished the bottoms carefully with a jig saw..
.
"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
If you're interested in a package deal, I've got the hilti 267 saw with ez base and lots of spare inserts, several rails (2x50" and a couple shorter ones), the smart clamps, the repeaters/ cabinetmaker, the square, and the smart router kit with stops.
Works well, no complaints, everything's near new. I've just never made enough use of it to justify it.
I've been thinking about letting it go. If you're interested, drop me a line and we'll see if we can find a price to suit us both.
Hey Paul,I might be interested in your smart router kit... Is it the most recent version?I've heard they can be used on the Festool rails.Give me a shout at julian-at-juliantracy.comThanks,Julian
Should not matter, if old, send it back to Dino for swapout.
Hey Julian. It's about two years old, I think. I don't know if that makes it the latest or not. It's got the green low friction thing on the base.
I had been thinking about selling the lot, rather than dealing with the hassle of parting it out. Having said that, what would you offer?Amateurs talk strategy, Generals talk logistics.
I'll keep it in mind.
Regardless of which system you go with, I have the ez smart sliding table system and it's very handy.Dino's made some plastic extrusions which you attach 2' lengths of 1x2's and they in turn slide into some flat extrusions screwed and pivoting on a 2x4 sheet of 3/4 plywood.So - fully extended - it'll hold a full 4x8 sheet of MDF, but as the sheet is cut down, you can slide the sections back into the center.Look at the EZ site to see it, but it's a great idea and is handy as heck, especially for the EZ setup as you have room for the clamps amongst the sections of wood.Deceptively simple, stores at 2x4x 2-4" thick.Use it on two sawhorse or on the ground even.http://www.eurekazone.com/products/detail/smarttable.htmlJT
If you go with Festool do it before April 1st. Prices are jumping 20%.
Debating on which guide rail system to purchase. Want to use it for cutting plywood sheets, routing dados with the guide and cutting doors up to 1 3/4". Have not used either but from some research these are some of the differences I have read about. The Festool has excellent dust collection, a plunge cut saw, will cut an 1 3/4" and lies flat on the workpiece not elevated causing some variances in the cut. The Ez is more geared to customization such as the Bridge, the handle square , repeaters and some other accessories. Also, the price and the ability to use your existing saw without having to buy Festool blades.
Cutting plywood. A self aligning square and the best antisplintering system.
Routing dados. A router jig with traverse movements (X-Y) and limit stops.
Flutting. A router jig with (X-Y)
Cutting 1-3/4" solid doors and lumber. Power and depth of cut. (Makita 8-1/4")
5008 MGA with electric brake, power and good ergonomics.
Excellent dust collection. A front dust port and a dust shield. Visit the ez forum.
Bridge. N0 need to lift the saw, use clamps, measure and mark, lift the rail, use a square and the same time you have a routing and assembly table.
Handle square. Self aligning to the guide rail. No clamping. A Square that can be used as a fence and can be upgraded to a complete cabinetmaker providing repeatability on both sides of the sawblade. No measuring, no clamping.
Repeaters. No clamping and no measuring. Only one repeater needed if you have the cabinetmaker. A small repeater, easy to use with large capacity. ( The new repeaters)
A universal system and a company with free upgrade policy and life time guarantee.
Good luck.
david.
How about the manufactures just start putting
a groove on the bottom of all saws and we can make whatever
guide we need.
ding ding ding and We Have a Winner!
A Congratulations for Something Award
goes to Henley.
Saaalute!
be all hail Henley
Get a Peach full,easy feelin'.
Wow!
This is way better then those stinkin gold stars I
never got in kindergarten.
Get The Worx saw from the Big River.
David - I've never seen or used the Worx saw (looks interesting) but if it's the same one I'm thinking of it's on sale at the big river for $60.
http://www.amazon.com/WORX-WT431K-Revolver-BladeRunner-Circular/dp/B000BW8004/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1206819520&sr=1-1
Over at the EZ forum on Sawmill Creek they seem to like it. One downer is that it does not have an electric brake. That is a nice to have feature when used on the rail if doing production.
At least it does not look as funky as their recip saw.
It has the slot on the bottom but would not give you the anti-chip if not used with the ez base. It will cut a 2x4 on the rail, something most of the other 7 1/4 saws won't do.
To late I just got a festool.
Quick and good choice.
I owned the EZ system and recently sold it and switched to Festool. I agree that the EZ is tougher, and Dino (the inventor) definitely stands behind his product. I didn't like it because I didn't use it enough. Every time I started to try to do something new with it, they'd made several improvements.
Now, Dino goes way out of his way to give you free or low-cost upgrades. There can be no reasonable complaint there. But using that system is a continual learning process, and I just wasn't using it enough to get into keeping up with all the changes.
I haven't started using my Festool stuff yet. I do miss the EZ rails and saw when I'm ready to cut construction-grade plywood and such (although most people would not use any kind of guide for that). But, in the end, I believe I will be much happier with the finished nature and precision of the Festool system. Everything in the EZ system is a little less uniform and polished, and I really want the utility of a finished system.
JDLee
I'm not dissing the Festool here but I build cabinetry, high end cabinetry. I use the EZ to do all my finish cuts on cabinet grade ply for the boxes and other assorted things related to the job.
I'm sure that the Festool produces the same results, matter of fact I know it does but your assertion that the EZ is more suited for construction grade ply is an uneducated statement.
I haven't added any upgrades to my system since I bought it a few years ago, what upgrades are you talking about that I would need to do to be up to date on in order to use the rail system? Improvements to a sytem don't mean that the current system can not function.
I know that Festool has made improvments to their stuff without any ill effects to the older styles/system. What are you talking about?
Doug
Doug--
Where did I make that assertion?
I made no such assertion, nor would I. I don't doubt the precision of the EZ system in the hands of someone familiar with its use.
Reading my post, I can only guess that you are referring to my statement that I miss the EZ rails and saw when I go to cut construction grade plywood. That's the most frequent use I found for the system. I in no way said or meant that that's all the system is good for. You read that into what I said.
As far as upgrades, I don't understand how you could not know what I'm talking about. Dino is always improving the system. The last improvements I recall included changes to the cabinetmaker and repeaters. But I even went out of my way to state that Dino gladly gives or discounts these upgrades.
My point was that I prefer the finished, polished nature of the Festool system. I did have some problems with pieces in the EZ system lining up. Dino took care of these, so I'm not saying it's some major flaw. I just prefer a system with fully interchangeable parts that are precisely manufactured. I don't necessarily think the problems I had were common.
I phrased that post carefully so as not to have the EZ devotees descend upon me. I think even the Scientologists take criticism better than you guys.
As JD pointed out he was not saying that EZ was only good for the const grade ply. He was saying it was better suited. I read that that the F-tool might be a little too refined for such crass applications (:-). Do not think he was too far off mentioning the upgrades, I did not read it as a slam.
For you and Paul: I did get several of the upgrades, repeater, square, srk. If you have not taken advantage I suggest that you do. They are super improvements, not saying the old was bad, just the new is better.
I am one of Dino's most staunch defenders by the way. Just thought you and Paul trounced him a little too hard (;-).
Rasconc
I disagree that I jumped on JD, I simply pointed out something obvious to me. If thats jumping on then I'd suggest he stay away from construction sites!
Doug
"
I haven't started using my Festool stuff yet. I do miss the EZ rails and saw when I'm ready to cut construction-grade plywood and such (although most people would not use any kind of guide for that). "
"I'm sure that the Festool produces the same results, matter of fact I know it does but your assertion that the EZ is more suited for construction grade ply is an uneducated statement."
You are missing the point, you might infer sort a slam on ez but I read that he says the job is more suited to the ez, not that is any limitation or slam on the system. If I had the Festool plunge saw I would prefer the ez for cuts on construction ply. I would rather wear out a $6 blade.
You are missing the point, you might infer sort a slam on ez but I read that he says the job is more suited to the ez, not that is any limitation or slam on the system.
I dont think I missed anything, read the next paraghaph in his post.
And I still dont think I was hard on him!
Doug
What are you making with construction grade ply that you need the accuracy of a guide rail system?
My porter cable and a pencil line (chalk line to thick) and a steady hand is all I need to cut construction grade ply.
Re-read, I did not say I was. The op (or at least the one I was referring to) was.
I have seen guys that could cut just about as straight w/o a guide however I am not one of them.
Gotta call you on the one JD...it just isn't accurate at all. I was one of Dino's first 50 maybe buyers. I have three setups, plus the SmartRouter. I never added ANY of the updates, just didn't feel I needed em. If you want to stay absolutely current, he makes it painless and cheap or free...does Festool? And if you feel as I do, that's it's darned near flawless as is, just ignore them and keep working ;)
"Updates? We don't need no stinking updates!" ;)
PaulB
Paul-
You EZ guys are a sensitive bunch.
Exactly what are you "calling" me on here? Did I say you have to get the upgrades?
I was talking about what I did and didn't like about the EZ system, and I stand behind my comments.
I just don't understand people who are so sensitive about their tools that they can't listen to other people's opinions of them. Both you and Doug found criticism that didn't exist and hopped right on to tell me why I was wrong.
JD, I know what you're saying.
In my view the main problem with the EZ rail system is the difficulty in knowing *exactly* where is the cut line, which is one of the main reasons to have a rail system as far as speeding up work. The problem is that the plasic edge insert does not sit flush with the bottom of the rail extrusion. Instead, it holds the rail about 1/8 inch or so above the wood you are cutting. When you place downward pressure on the rail (or clamp it) the plastic edge splays outward maybe 1/8 inch. Therefore, the location of the plastic edge depends on how much downward pressure you use. It's no good to have an edge that creeps left or right depending on how much pressure you use. It also means that the rail can tilt left and right, typically to the right if your saw cuts on the right (because that's where the weight is) and the cut will not be perfectly perpendicular.
I mentioned this to Dino a couple of years ago but apparently this isn't a big deal for some people. I wish he would make a new plastic edge that lets the rail sit flush on the wood. Maybe the antisplinter wouldn't work quite as well, but it would be well worth it to have an edge that I know will be the true cut line.
It's great there are lots of engineering enhancements and new attachments and jigs for EZ, but it would be better to clean up some of the intitial engineering first. Dino is full of good ideas. I agree with Julian that the EZ cutting table is very useful.
Billy
Hi Billy-
We're on the same wavelength here. The only part of the system I kept was the table!
I also found that problem with the anti-chip edge inserts. Dino acknowledges it as existing and came out with a new edge that was supposed to help (it looked the same but was either more or less flexible). Other than that, I think that he just recommends not clamping too tightly. I guess you always have to be careful with overtightening with aluminum. I think the Festool rails have a definite design advantage in this regard, but as I haven't used them yet, I can't speak from experience.
Plenty of people are turning out amazing stuff with the EZ system. I just couldn't see ever using it enough to want to keep up with the enhancements. And if I was going to get into using it, I would want to stay completely updated. That's just me.
It's great there are lots of engineering enhancements and new attachments and jigs for EZ, but it would be better to clean up some of the intitial engineering first.
Billy,
The entire product line was redesigned twice in the last 4 years.
New edges, (twice) New Square, Cabinetmaker, Repeaters, Smart Router kit,
The newer edges are more flexible/softer and the lift-up of the rails is minimized while keeping the antisplintering function at the Max.
The Newer square is much easier to use and align. The New Handle works like a clamp. The Cabinetmaker is smaller, more compact with more capacity. ( Extendable)
Same with the Repeaters. Better and priced lower than before.
The Newer Smart Router Kit is Universal to all guide rail systems and much easier to adjust.
The best part of the system is the lifetime guarantee and free upgrade policy.
I work with Dino and I can tell you that the original ez product line is matured and final.
david.
Hi David,
That's my mistake -- I didn't know that Dino developed new edges for the EZ -- that's great news! I'll try them and find out if they eliminate the problems I mentioned. I bought a few sets of edges a couple of years ago and I've been using them, so I guess I have the old stuff.
I also bought the square when it first came out. It's a good idea but I've had to adjust it a couple of times.
I never did buy the repeaters because it seems the designs were changing a lot, and I wasn't doing production cabinet work where they would really come in handy -- just built-ins here and there.
I should go back over to Dino's site and Saw Mill Creek and find out what I've been missing because I'm not going to drop the money for a Festool system now. I use the PC Mag saw with a brake -- Makita didn't have the 8 1/4 brake saw available when I put together my EZ system.
I have the gun/carrying case for the rails and that's hard to beat. The EZ rails are so tough they probably don't need a case as much as the Festool rails do!
Thanks for letting me know about the EZ updates.
Billy
Edited 3/30/2008 12:34 pm ET by Billy
I have the new Makita on the EZ rails and I really like the saw alot.
Not that my opinion matters just figured I'd pass along a positive review. Woods favorite carpenter
Matt,
The Makita plunge saw or the MGA?
Dust collection?
david.
I got the 5008 Makita, 8-1/4".
Very nice saw, at least so far. And it gives the depth of cut needed for 2x stock and 1-3/4" doors.
I didn't get the dust collection, Dino offered but I do all my work outside so it wouldn't have helped a whole lot. I bought the saw from Dino EZ ready. Base mounted already, from him. Woods favorite carpenter
You EZ guys are a sensitive bunch.
Come on JD, you got your panties ruffled when I said that you're assertion was "uneducated" in your reference to the EZ as a good construction grade plywood system - later you even said that "I will be much happier with the finished nature and precision of the Festool system. Everything in the EZ system is a little less uniform and polished, and I really want the utility of a finished system."
I responded that I get finish grade cuts without any updated equipment to my system. It appeared to me that you are saying that the Festool will get better results because of some "polish", I disagreed and called you on it. Yet in your own words, you haven't used the Festool yet! BTW, I have, and it works very well. I doubt you'll be disappointed.
Your accusation of us EZ users as thin skinned is funny when you cant take a little criticism regarding your own uneducated analyses of a system which by the way is apparent that you hadn't used very much.
I asked you about the "But using that system is a continual learning process, and I still would like to know why it is that I need to continue to upgrade my system? Why wont it work the way that it is and still continue to give me the results that I get? This isn't a virus protection software that continually needs updating to ward off new and improved viruses.
Are you going to tell me why I need to continue to upgrade?
I've used the Festool, all beit, sparingly. Felt good in my hands as I would have expected going in. I have two Festool tools and like both of them, I'd expect nothing less of their rail system then I see in their other stuff.
Reading through the posts after mine I will agree with what Billy said regarding the plastic inserts. One of my complaints regarding the EZ is that very thing. I've learned to use it so that's not a problem for me but as soon as I let someone at work use it I have to change the strips out, or save the good ones for myself and use spent ones - I would like to solve that problem, either that or not let anybody use my tools!
To me that is the single biggest weakness to the system that I encounter. However it can be a big deal. Something I have to watch very carefully when I'm cutting material for a nice cabinet job. I would like to eliminate that worry if its possible. Don't know if that's an issue with the Festool because I didn't use it enough to have a concern with it.
I do wonder about all the Festool users claim that the rails on that system are less rigid then the EZ's. I didn't pick the Festool rails up and throw them around enough to notice a big difference. Something that would be a concern to me since I have to use mine in the field a lot. I assume a nice carrying case would take care of that problem.
The last thing I'm trying to do is turn this into another EZ/Festool free for all. That usually serves no purpose. So with that I'll bow out of this thread.
I'm sure you'll be quite content with the Festool system. Just as I am with my EZ, with out any upgrades/updates.
Doug
Doug--
You persist in saying I've said things I haven't. Where did I refer to the EZ system as "a good construction grade plywood system?" I never said that.
Earlier in the thread comments had been made that regarding the durability of the EZ system. I agree that it is durable, and the rails will likely take more abuse than the Festool system. That is why I said I miss the EZ rails and saw when I'm cutting construction-grade plywood. I'm not going to use the Festool for that because I don't want to damage it, and that's why I haven't used it yet. I'm doing rough work right now, and that's when I find myself missing the EZ rails.
So just calm down, I've in no way said that that is all it is good for. Uneducated rube that I am, I am still quite familiar with the amazing things people are doing with the EZ system.
And I never once stated you will get better results with the Festool system because it is polished. I said I like the fact that the Festool system is a finished, polished system. When I had a problem with something that had been damaged in shipping, Dino got replacement parts to me right away. But those parts did not align properly with what I had. The parts weren't interchangeable, so I went quite a while without the ability to use what I had purchased. I found that really, really frustrating. That's the lack of finish and polish I was referring to. I like the idea of interchangeable parts, and a saw that you don't have to mount to a base yourself, etc. Some people much prefer the ability to choose different saws and want a system that is continually evolving.
Your point about me being thin-skinned about my point of view being uneducated is equally invalid. I said up front that I hadn't used it enough, and that I hadn't used the Festool system yet. My comments were limited to the experience I had had with the EZ system, and my observations of the Festool system. I offered them so that an intelligent person could read them, along with the disclosure of my level of experience with the systems, and determine if the things I didn't like about the EZ system would be things they wouldn't like.
And again, I have NEVER said that you must get the upgrades. Why do you keep arguing as though I have? If I (ME--not you) am going to use the system, I want to use its most current form. So the upgrades were driving me to distraction.
I stand by my comments, I have no panties to get in a wad (I don't know what you're wearing, but I prefer boxers), and I stand by the fact that you are overly sensitive. You keep arguing with me over things I never said. When you read my post, you read criticisms I had not made into it. That's being defensive, that's being sensitive.
Edited 3/30/2008 6:32 pm ET by JDLee
Edited 3/30/2008 6:33 pm ET by JDLee
"And again, I have NEVER said that you must get the upgrades. "I guess I misunderstood too. It seemed to me that you strongly inferred that the system would not work well for you because you did not keep up with upgrades. The imlication was that by not upgrading, the system had become less valuable.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I certainly wasn't trying to imply that.
It's simply less valuable (or more frustrating) to me. I found that many times I would get on the forums or go to the website to see how best to do something, and then I would see that there were upgrades Dino was offering for free. I felt an obligation to get them. A lot of people, most people, probably wouldn't.
fair enough. It just came across that way, I guess.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I guess I must be behind the times about upgrades and such for EZ. I bought it to make straight cuts in plywood and stuff.almost 3 years later now and it still makes straight cuts in plywood and stuff.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm a hobbist who enjoys building furniture in my 2 car garage. After some perfectly awfull experiences with add on kits for my 7 1/4 circular saw, I took the plunge and purchased a Festool T55 and several track assemblys. Not wanting to score the top of a perfectly good tabletop, I clamp several pieces of 2"x4" stock to the large Festool mutipurpose table. This works beautifully for cutting precise strips. The plunge function is very smooth and there isn't any startup jolt you typically get with most 7 1/4 units. I use the T55 almost exclusively on 4'x8' plywood wood stock, for material over 1" thick you will probably be happier with the T75 unit. Cutting with the veneer grain will give you zero splinters, even without the splinter guard. Cutting "crossgrain" on the otherhand will net you some splintering even with the splinter guard. What I like most about about my T55, is it's builtin safety features. Recently, I did a boneheaded stunt cutting some stock crosswise on a make do work surface, when I completed the cut, everything went crashing to the floor. Except the T55, it was still secure in my hand with the blade fully locked in the retracted position. Only injury sustained was to my pride! Changing blades is a snap, put the "plunge" all the way down, and the blade locks automatically. No more grasping the business end of a sharp blade when loosening or tightening an arbor bolt. I also enjoy making dados and rabbits with the Festool router and track system, I never believed such precision could be accomplished so easily, but that's another story.
I also noticed the creep involved with the anti-splinter edges when clamping down the rails. Easy enough to work with but does allow some inconsistancy in sizing. That was two years ago for me though, so I might have had the older style.And I'll agree that when I bought my system all of the componants felt a bit not fully worked out and maybe a bit rough in manufacture.For instance, my rails had come poorly shipped straight from EZ and both rails had smagged corners slightly. Dino suggested I file them down. That - after just spending $500 on an EZ system. Then later I realized the rails were not cut square at the ends - no wonder my cuts had been slightly off.I also bought the repeaters (cabinet maker's kit), and found that there was enough play in the little "stop" arm that you could get some inconsistencies in the cuts.Now everyone here is touting the constant improvement and ease of dealing with Dino but it cannot be discounted that folks like myself with earlier versions of the system can only judge it's performance by the products we had on hand.
Might have been a good idea for EZ to keep track of previous purchases and send out notices of improvements to users.If I hadn't found a great deal on a bunch of Festool stuff, I'd be drinking the koolaid and preaching the EZ all day long, but after using the Festool, I've found that I get much cleaner cuts - no question - and it's just simpler and easier to use with less fooling around.I do not doubt that the EZ can deliver excellant cuts, but I'd bet there's not a 7 1/4" blade available that is anywhere near as good ad the Festool blades.For high-end cabinet makers - may not matter, but for us lowly melamine cabinet makers, I found that I was never able to get as good chip-free cuts as I do now top, bottom, left and right in melamine board, no matter what blade I used.JT
"Might have been a good idea for EZ to keep track of previous purchases and send out notices of improvements to users."
You're right about that. I looked at the Eurekazone website and it doesn't say a thing about newly designed anti-splinter edges. Nothing. The part number is the same as it always was. You would think it would at least say "new, improved."
Billy
In reply to your reply; I'll simply state with Festool tracks & clamps, when properly setup THERE IS NO CREEPAGE. The track for all intents & purposes is BONDED to the workpiece. I know next to nothing about the "EZ System", I'm perfectly happy with the Festool program, so I won't express any opinions on this score. (Other than state I like what I have!) On the cost analysis I'll remain moot, but it might be helpfull to remember, that you'll usually get what you pay for.
I wasn't actually aiming my post at you - I sometimes forget to pick "to all".You're right though - the Festool rail's anti-chip is very simple and effective with no creep or movement when tightened - in fact, I usually don't use clamps with my rails as the grip very tightly without clamps.The EZ's anti-chip is a plastic insert that has a spring to it that compresses tightly to the wood as you clamp down.So when you first set the rail in place, you line up the edge to your cut line and than you clamp it and it shifts off the cut line. (mine may have been the older versions, so that "creep" may not be an issue for the latest iteration.Good discussion here thus far without the usual breakdown that occurs when comparing the two systems.JT
Julian,
http://eurekazone.com/instructions/20060419/instc1.pdf
Who needs directions?
david.
What's the relevance? Nothing on that page really answers any questions I did or didn't ask.Thanks for thinking of me in regardless.JT
Julian,
You had 2 problems with the ez system.
Read the directions.
IMPORTANT.... Do not... Do not...
david
I have, use and like the EZ system,but you are annoying.
What the heck are you talking about??I'm not here to play riddles, I was just trying to offer some insights as a previous user of the EZ guide. I don't still own it - I sold all that stuff a while back.At first I thought you were trying to be helpful, but now I don't really care.Thanks but no thanks.J
David,
I still don't think the EZ system has addressed its engineering problems. Any system that is this sensitive to how you tighten the clamps, how much you depress the anti-chip edges, and how you tighten the connectors when joining rails is not ready for mass production. It can work well and is fine for people who don't mind spending more time tinkering with the system than cutting wood. It would have been better to refine the basic system first before moving on to all sorts of add-ons and transformer gadgets.
I'm not trying to be harsh or argumentitive -- I think this is a valid view, especially after reviewing many posts over at Sawmill Creek and seeing that Dino and others admit some of the shortcomings of the EZ system and say "oh these are known problems and we are working on them." That's not to say that the Festool doesn't have engineering problems of its own that it is working on but it looks like they took care to address many of them before introducing its product into the marketplace.
Billy
Edited 3/31/2008 10:44 am ET by Billy
Well, my birthday is on April 15. I told my wife today that I wanted to take a trip to Woodcraft to buy a few vacuum adapters for my shop. I am using schedule 40 PVC for a dust collection network, but that is another story.
Anyway, she said I should think big since my b-day was coming up. When I got to the store, I saw the Festool displays and made a decision. I had no intention of buying either EZ or Festool at this time. I have been watching the posts for a couple of years and was prepared to continue to think for another year or two.
So I picked up the TS 55EQ-plus (saw and 55" rail). As was mentioned previously, my regrets at purchase time disappeared once I got home and gave it the test.
The saw met all expectations. In addition, there are MANY excellent features on this tool that never get mentioned in any of the posts. You should have one at home to play with for a while to see what makes this tool special. This thing is really engineered!
The big drawback is the price. I just bought it today, and I am already 95% over that.
I filled up my RAM with Diesel and it cost me over $100, with the tank not even empty. I will do that again in a week or two. The saw cost me $450 after the price increase on April 1st (I should have bought it last week for $405!) The saw will last me for years. The diesel will be gone before I blow the candles out.
The 2008 Festool catalogue just came out. Imagine a "chopsaw" for $1300.00, yes it's true! I especially like the new trim router that cuts both vertically & horizontally, $510.00. Thier book is bigger & glossier this year, must be doing something right!
When I bought the saw, I was strongly considering the router. That's about another $500!
Since I already have several routers, I couldn't justify it. Their work table and vac looked good too.
Maybe if I win the lottery!
Yes, I admit, I have several routers also. I use the mid size Festool router, (it's the most versatile, with 3 collets) for dados & rabbits exclusively. With the table, track & vacuum it's incredibly easy and accurate. You simply "sweep" the router back & forth across the workpiece. The stops are quick & easy to use also. With special plywood router bits there's no touchup at all. I used to use dado sawblades, never again! It's a bit of a learning curve to get used to setting the lateral adjustments on the track follower, and you should visually sight your depth adjustment. But practicing on some scrap wood will build your confidence. I've done some WOW THINGS with it! One guy said; "you must be an artist". Nope, just good tools. Enjoy your new saw.
Billy...
First some history. If you go wayyyyyyyyyy back here you will find that I am the one (unless I'm very very much mistaken) that introduced Dino to the guys here. I wrote (again with the previous disclaimer) the first EZ review here and was in the early EZ/F debates to my eyeballs both here and at SMC. Frankly I just don't get into it anymore. A) They go on endlessly over the same territory, often turning nasty and B) I got tired of the sleeper cells of Festool employees both casual and formal that came out of the woodwork only for these debates.
Having said all that, I just couldn't let your comments go unanswered because they are exagerated to the point of being hyperbole. I use my EZ gear on a constant, professional basis. To say I, or any other EZ user spends more time tinkering than working is quite frankly... stupid and insulting. I could just as easily claim that Festool buyers are more interested in their pretty Systainers than cutting... or the color scheme of the tools. Just as accurate IMHO... just read the Festool Owner's Group ;)
Speaking of the FOG (somehow I always loved that acronym), even a casual visit will reveal myriad complaints from owners about issues big and small with their rail system and saw. Both systems have pros and cons... in the case of thousands of users, including myself and the owner of Saw Mill Creek*, by the way, the EZ Smart is simply the system with the least drawbacks and the better choice.
There is a huge difference between the corporate mentality of Festool (and their marketing budget) vs. Dino plugging away in New Jersey. It's not unlike Microsoft and Linux. EZ has an "open source". Come up with a neat idea, pitch it to Dino and he will, for better or for worse, tinker in his workshop to see where it will lead. Does that mean that some of his joint creations are "transformers"? Perhaps... but try picking up the phone and telling Festool you have an idea to improve or expand their system... let me know how that works for ya.
Listen Billy... Festool makes a great tool. But to claim that those of us who haven't drunk the KoolAid are diletantes or willing to work with half baked tools is insulting and childish.
(* I refer to a rather famous incident where the owner of SMC got so fed up with the vitriol and techno assassins that he conducted his own impartial comparison. In spite of the generous support of Festool in funding his forum... he chose EZ Smart as the clear winner overall. The results are no doubt still posted there.)PaulB
Hey Paul,
Thanks for your comments, and I'm sorry you felt they were stupid or insulting. My comments have nothing to do people who chose to use the EZ system -- in fact, I am one of the people who chose to buy and use the EZ system.
My comments are not about Festool versus EZ. I don't have a Festool guide system and I haven't used one. I have seen the comments here from people who used both. Some of them bought EZ and later sold them and switched to Festool. I haven't seen any comments from anyone who bought Festool and switched to EZ. Some bought EZ and kept it. Some bought Festool and kept it. (By the way, I still don't get the whole Systainer thing...)
I don't have a dog in the fight between EZ and Festool. I can only comment on my experience using EZ. My experience has been OK. It has proved good for some things but not accurate enough for some of the work I expected it to handle, such as quickly cutting cabinet filler strips accurately and with square edges.
I was concerned about whether my comments were too harsh after I posted them, so I went over to Sawmill Creek and searched through the comments and advice over there. The boards are full of comments from people who had the same problems I did with the guide edges causing the guide not to lie flat, problems with the rails not being cut square (a problem I did not have), and to a lesser extent problems with the square guide not keeping the rails square to the guide without adjustment. It is true that many of these problems were fixed after experimentation and advice from the other members, but it is true that some of the problems keep reappearing.
I stand by my comment that the fact the plastic EZ guide edge causes the guide extrusion to not lie flat on the wood being cut is, in my personal view, a basic design problem. In my view, the added anti-splinter benefit this provides is at the expense of having an accurate cut line and a square cut. In my personal view this is a design issue and it should have been addressed during the engineering stage of product development before the product was released. If the "new" EAC-1 plastic guide allows the extrusion to easily lie flat, then perhaps this issue has been addressed. I hope so. However, although I believe the comment that was posted here about new guide edges, I will note that there is nothing I could find on the EZ website or on Sawmill Creek that says anything about new guide edges. Certainly the EAC-1 part number has not changed. In fact, if you look at the EZ website you can see exacly what I am saying about the EAC-1 plastic edges extending below the bottom of the saw guide extrusion: http://www.eurekazone.com/products/detail/eac1.html http://eurekazone.com/gallery/smart-smart-base-system-details/Picture_117
As far as I can tell part of the EZ design philosophy was to have the extrusion rest on the guide edges, which would flex and with the weight of the saw and pressure from clamping (but not too much pressure) allow the saw guide to hopefully lie flat on the wood being cut. I question whether this was a good design decision. Like most designs, you would expect it to be improved over time and it probably is.
An important side-effect of having the guide edge flex is that it actually moves left and right as it flattens depending on the clamping pressure and weight of the saw. This very frustrating because one of the main benefits of having a guide system is to know exactly where is the cut line going to be when you place the guide on the wood. Having a cut line that moves, even 1/16 inch (and sometimes more) defeats one of the main purposes of having a guide system.
Don't get me wrong -- much of the EZ system is beautifully designed, and the extrusions are heavy and solid. Many of the CNC machined parts are well made to last a long time. The EZ Smart table is excellent and a very smart design. And Dino provides excellent personal attention for his products that he sells at a reasonable price.
Most tools are a tradeoff between the good and bad, and you learn to work with them to make them do what you need to do. But I don't see anything wrong with discussing both the good attributes and problems and sharing them with people who are interested so they can make up their own minds and an informed decision after reading different points of view.
If you have any specific comments in response to the specific problems I mentioned with the guide edge, that would be great. Thanks.
Billy
Edited 4/6/2008 11:48 am ET by Billy
Edited 4/6/2008 12:12 pm ET by Billy
Well, without getting into a whole #### for tat thing, I will say that I've never found the dreaded "edge creep" an issue. At worst, I may give my setup a light tap to really tweak a cut but even that is pretty rare. It may just be a matter of familiarity. On the other hand when I used the Festool I found the plunge design of the saw itself offputting, well equal in nuisance factor to the edge alignment of the EZ. From what I gather from Festool owners, replacing the edges when (as all edges do) they require replacement is quite a lot more fuss than simply sliding out the EZ edges and sliding in new ones.
I'm entirely in agreement that all tool choices have an element of pro and con, I just exasperated with comments that imply that this is a no brainer or that somehow EZSmart users are settling for second best. It just ain't so...and I'll be happy to leave it at that :)PaulB
Very well said...that one single issue is what kept me from recommending to my boss that the company buy another EZ to replace mine, and instead convinced him we needed a Festool....and the Festool solves that problem simply and elegantly.
I even email Dino a couple of times about the problem, and his response was that he didn't understand what I was talking about and could I send pictures of the problem. That annoyed me, because obviously I wasn't the only person with an EZ setup who was frustrated with the edge creep thing.
The problem is exaggerated when doing 45° rips, and you end up with a sweeping curve instead of a straight line. I like curves but not in that case.
I do thank PaulB for turning me onto the EZ; without his recommendation I'd still be using my homemade shooting boards. Now that I've moved up to the Festool I doubt I'll go back, although there are a few things I like better about the EZ.
Mike,
I emailed Dino a couple of times about it too. It's too bad he didn't resolve this issue before focusing on all the enhancements because it looks like Dino is the one who came up with many the breakthroughs in this product category. Other companies followed and came up with their own improvements (or not improvmenets) and spin on the product.
I hope that he does address it. He's a smart and inventive guy and it's nice to buy American tools when it's possible. He did address the saw/base issue that was a problem for some people (but not me) by selling saws with the base attached and aligned.
I did a few 45 degree rips and I agree with you 100%.
I'll call the company as David suggested and get the new edges. Hopefully they let the extrusion sit flat on the wood without added weight or pressure. The photos on the website show the extrusion sitting above the wood instead of on it, so I'll see.
I thank PaulB too. EZ beats the homemade shooting boards by far and it's nice to be able to pack up the rails in the gun case.
Billy
Edited 4/6/2008 1:38 pm ET by Billy
Good advice.
The ez goal now is "universal and better" dust collection.
Videos with the ez fix dust collection problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=078GU3wSVtU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zys1IFASrik&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHCMvBGly_4&feature=related
You can do it yourself, send your tools to the zone or buy the ez ready tools.
David
I have encountered some of the same problems that Billy did with the edges but I figured a way to overcome them - something that I have to be aware of all the time but not a real big deal.
I will call Dino and get some new strips and see if that solves some of the problems though.
One other thing that I wondered about, I got some of that no slip tape, the black stuff that you put under the white strips so that you dont have to use the clamps - do they(Dino) recomend not using that? Thought I read that once but not sure, I use it on my little two foot rail cause for the most part I only use that piece with the square and although I'm holding the square firmly to the piece I'm cutting the black anti-slide tape ( I dont know what to call it!) just helps the cause.
Doug
Doug,
The non skid tape is good for some applications and bad for others.
"antiskid vs non antiskid"
Good for flooring ( no place to use clamps or screws to secure the guide)
Bad for exact placement of the rails on long work pieces.
Good for quick tapered cuts within +-1/16" on pieces wider than the guide rail.
Bad to use with the square and other accessories. ( The non skid function don't allow the square to work easily and exact)
Good if you have 2 sets of edges and have the benefits of both.
david.
"The ez goal now is "universal and better" dust collection."Dino has a LONG way to go. Cutting a hole in the blade guard? I wonder what the circ companies feel about that? I've said before, whatever EZ does, the weakness that can never be overcome is the saw. None of the circ's are as good as the festool and they do have have the features that the festool has either. Why would you want to cut a hole in your saw with a belt sander and do all the things that EZ requires when you can get a set up that is ready to go like festool or soon the makita, etc. EZ is fine but it does not compare to the system that festool has. In this thread and others I've seen people say that switched from Ez to festool but I've never heard the reverse.
Im an idiot for adding my 2 cents but...:-)I have had the 55 and the vac for over a year. It works
very well, both that is. Yes, the rails can be
injured if not protected when you go from job to
job. Like any tool, there is some learning curve.
Also have the Domino and one of the RO sanders.
Systainers are just plastic (thin too!) boxes
that can be clipped together. OK but not nearly
as tough as a Milwaukee saw case.My judgement is that they are very expensive but
in the long run worth it. Quality products.
The dust collection alone is worth the price
of entry for me.HOWEVER: the FOG is mostly guys who are
hobbyists it seems and surely have drunk
the cool-aid. But just ignore that, there
is a goodly amount of info and tricks there
to make it worth reading.Oh, and go for the larger saw.
For those who don't have the spare cash for the vac, there is another inexpensive solution. I bought a Bosch vacuum hose for my palm sander at Amazon. It fits the festool nicely, is about 18 ft long or thereabouts, and is very flexible. It's not as nice as the Festool system, but for about $20 and attached to my shop vac, it is a perfect solution.
"HOWEVER: the FOG is mostly guys who are
hobbyists it seems and surely have drunk
the cool-aid. But just ignore that, there
is a goodly amount of info and tricks there
to make it worth reading."FOG is a good source for tips on using some of the tools but certainly not for good advice on different tools. I think 80% of them are hobbyists. I said the bosch 1591 was as good as the festool barrel grip and they wanted me tarred and feathered for going against the green and blue. They think the more you pay, the better the tool. They actually like festools pricing policy and don't mind when the price increase hits.85% of them are FOOLS. $1300 for the kapex is CRAZY. I saw it at JLC Live and it's nice but not worth more than $700. The dust control is about 75% unless you need to remove the lower boot, then its non existent.
None of the circ's are as good as the festool
I'm sure you haven't done a comparison study so FYI
My Hilti 267 will cut anything as nice as the festool saw will. I can get blades just as good as the festool blades.
Doug
When I made my first cut in a piece of 3/4" birch ply, I couldn't believe how smooth the cut was. I would not be surprised that the Hilti would have great blades too. I have never used one of their tools without noticing that they were better than the competition. I like their hammer drill accessories, and prefer to use them over the Bosch, which are actually pretty good too. The Hilti bits last much longer, but they are expensive.
The Hilti blades suck.JT
I tried every 40 tooth 7 1/4 blade I could find. Bosch C4, CMT, Frued and Hilti.Not a single one ever cut as good as the 48 tooth blade that came with my Festool saw.(on white melamine board)Julian
Try the 40 tooth silver Avanti blades, very nice, smooth cuts. Woods favorite carpenter
I was never even aware of the EZ system when I bought my first Festool a few years back. What's this about needing a different edge guide for bevel cuts with the EZ? If so that would be a significant drawback to me. Festool's pivot point is where the guide hits the wood, so the same piece of rubber goes right on the cut line regardless of the bevel angle of the cut.I use the Festool in the field for rough work all the time. Heck, I even cut sheathing with it. I take it on the roof to trim the plywood rakes and eaves. I screw the guide to the side of a house to make cuts into siding. I hit nails with it, much to my dismay. I use it mostly for it's ability to cut a straight line right on the cut line. Makes a great field jointer to get a straight piece of stock out of anything. My guides are full of nicks and dings, but they are still straight. I like the lack of fuss--slap the guide down on the line, cut. Done. No setup. No breakdown. After a few years of using it I finally broke down and bought clamps to keep it from slipping as it sometimes can without the clamps, but mostly I use it clampless.Steve
I don't use Hilti blades. Actually I never knew there was a Hilti saw blade!
I'm not trying to say that you didn't make the right decision with the festool system. I'm sure you did and you will be happy with what you have. This Festool/EZ bs always seams to denigrate to a ford/chevy thing, who's pecker is the biggest!
There are plenty of fools that will tell you that the Festool saw blade is the only saw blade that can make the perfect cut but they'd be wrong, there are plenty other blades.
Doug
I wonder if anyone has tried to use the Festool rubber edge on an EZ rail instead of the plastic edge. I looked at my EZ rails today and it looks like it could work (the rail is mostly flat along the edge). Looks like the clamps and connectors would clear and probably the square too if the rubber isn't too thick.
This would eliminate one of the major issues that people are having with the EZ rails.
Any thoughts?
-Rich
The rubber tape on the Festool rails serves two purposes; it helps create good contact with the work surface, and when the rail is first used 1/16" of it's edge is shaved off leaving your index line. Your measurements under the rail to the index line wil be "dead on", outside the blade you'll need to subtract the sawblade kerf. It's a little messy making that first rail cut, rubber bits & burning rubber and all. Needless to say it would be better done on a piece of scrap, or even better yet cleaning up a factory edge.
Yeah, you can put a forrest on it, put some fuzzy dice and a shiny name plate but its still a framing circ. The quality of cut on the festool may be equaled by not passed. But the features, the plunge capability, the bevel that cuts at the same spot as at 90 degrees, the base on the festool allows you to cut very close to a wall whereas the regular circ's base does not allow this, blade change locking mechanism, and many more.It's just not equal, the design can never allow you to do some things and other things are not done as safely or as quickly. Dewalt and Makita are coming out with stuff similar to festool and marfell already has some. Those compete with festool, EZ doesn't. It's like a lexus vs. a chevy. The chevy can do almost everything the lexus can but it doesn't do it as well, as comfortably nor as safely.
DDay
Yeah, you can put a forrest on it, put some fuzzy dice and a shiny name plate but its still a framing circ.
There you go again, talking about something you obviously know nothing about! Framing saw, ha ha ha, never saw one on a framing crew yet.
The quality of cut on the festool may be equaled but not passed
You might just be right on this point but I never said that I could cut better then the Festool saw blade, that's something you and Julian seam to be missing.
I don't like the plunge deal on the saw, that might be just the "cant teach an old dog new tricks" seams odd to me, not wrong or bad just not natural.
You mention in another post about the Festool jig saw compared to the Bosch. I have both and I have to disagree with you, to me the Festool jig is head and shoulders better then the Bosch. Sorta like your analogy to the chevy/lexus thing, they both get you there but the lexus is a much better ride!
I will agree with you about the Festool chop saw though, $1300 is a lot of money for a chop saw and its doubtful that I will ever own one. Although I am dying to try one but unfortunately none of my friends can afford one either.
Doug
Doug,The plunge feature is one of the most valuable things about the the saw. It lets you dive into an in-place floor, lets you cut a square hole in the middle of a piece of plywood, etc. But it does take some getting used to. And to use the plunge, you wind up removing the riving knife, and pretty much never putting it back on again.Everyone I know with a Festool saw has had it kick back on them and jump onto the rail, dinging it pretty good. OK, so I know three people with them, including me, but we've all done it. Usually on a plunge cut. But I wouldn't want to do without the plunge.Steve
Edited 4/7/2008 12:01 am by mmoogie
Glad to know that it wasn't just me...
;-)
Don't you use that little clamp in the bottom of the box? It's the one that is described in the instructions as being absolutely necessary for plunge cuts to prevent unwanted movement.
"I will agree with you about the Festool chop saw though, $1300 is a lot of money for a chop saw and its doubtful that I will ever own one. Although I am dying to try one but unfortunately none of my friends can afford one either."I did not try it at the JLC show but you're really not missing much. It's a chop saw with some nice features. You get used to the plunge cutting with the festool TS very quickly. You usually plunge before the wood then run it through like normal but you have the plunge there for when you need it. If you don't like that, you really would not like the Kapex. The handle is only vertical, you cannot make is horizontal and that is something most are not going to like very much. I've also heard there are safety things you need to depress to activate the trigger.Someone else mentioned that you need to remove the riving knife on the festool, you do not on the newer TS, I think you did on the last version.
>>Someone else mentioned that you need to remove the riving knife on the festool, you do not on the newer TS, I think you did on the last version.<<That was me. I just bought the new one last week. The first thing I checked was to see if you could plunge with the knife on. No dice.Steve
Check it again. The riving knife is spring loaded and will retract with plunge cut. I believe the other one, I ATF, would not but I never used that one. That was one of the upgrades.
Oops. My bad. I don't know what I did wrong the first time. I put it back on again today to check, and it does indeed retract.Found another use for the Festool today. 7500 dollars worth of windows came with sills that were not as specified...were supposed to be 2 inches thick to match existing old windows. They came with the standard 1" thick sill. I set the bevel on the saw to match the bevel of the sill, clamped the rail onto the face of the window casings, and cut 1/8" off the bottom of the sill to get rid of the little roundover on the bottom edge so I could glue another piece of stock seamlessly to the bottom of the sill.Steve
I'm sure there are things I don't know yet. cool tool though.
No need to the remove the riving knife on the TS for plunge cuts. Better double check what you're doing.
-Norm
Festool must be best because I own one.
.
.
"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
Edited 4/7/2008 10:00 pm ET by Buttkickski2
Well you got me there! :)
Doug
If you have any specific comments in response to the specific problems I mentioned with the guide edge, that would be great. Thanks.
Billy,
I told you that the edges are redesigned three times
in order to get the best antichip protection available in the market
and the same time to eliminate the "specific" problem.
The square "problem" was fixed with another modification.
If you have any problems with your tools, call the company.
After all, they offer free upgrades and lifetime satisfaction guarantee.
david.
(44 of 75)
102622.44 in reply to 102622.38
For you and Paul: I did get several of the upgrades, repeater, square, srk. If you have not taken advantage I suggest that you do. They are super improvements, not saying the old was bad, just the new is better.
Which blade are you using? I cut pre-finished cabinet stock with my festool and never get any splinters cross grain or rip.
It's only human nature to support our buying decisions and choices.
Any volunteers in NJ to test both systems and report back to the forum?
Why not make a list of cutting and routing tasks?
Video tape the event and find out which system offers the
most accurate, cleanest, safest, quickest and easiest cut?
david.
-You must be joking.
This will never happen... the challengers are the ones that know they have the upper hand in winning, I don't want to offend the offenders, but a competition will never happen.
- Are you talking to me?
david
EZ will win on versatility
Festool will win on accuracy for straight-line rips and big (at least 12") crosscuts.
I've got other tools that will do EZ's task. I want a saw guide, not a Swiss Army knife.
The time I was referring to in regards to splintering was when I cut across the "grain" on some 1/4" cherry veneer plywood. The splintering was very minor, and may have more to do with the material not having sufficient support causing harmonics. As I mentioned before I'm reluctant to use the Festool table for cutting since I use it for a lot of other things too. Since I haven't experienced any thing like this with my radial arm saw, this may have been the problem. I think next time I'll get some scrap 1/2" plywood to put under it, so I can use the table or some other firm surface. The most likely reason I hadn't noticed it before, is that I typically use the saw for ripping (with the veneer grain) and I have zero splintering with very little foundation support. Cause & effect, always something new to learn! Oh, and I use the fine tooth blade with plywood.
Edited 4/7/2008 1:44 am ET by gabzachuck
The festool saw itself is so well made that it easily will cut better than any circ saw I've ever seen. The first time you rip a sheet with it a smile comes over your face. The smoothness of the cut is unreal.
As for blade cost, a single blade will rip enough 3/4" oak ply for an entire kitchen. The blades are very well made, like a Forest blade, and not just overpriced for the strange size.
Take your best saw and best blade, run a cut with a smooth as glass shooting board, take a sample of that cut along and find a store that has a festool demo saw and arrange to make a cut on the same material. There's no comparison.
On the down side, the festool isn't a tough as nails framing saw and you don't want to loan it out. I had a really tough kickback in 2" of oak when I plunged too close to the board edge with a coarse ripping blade and dinged a bearing which caused some vibration--saw is being sent in.
Take a good dial indicator or even dial caliper to a store and check the sole plate to blade alignment. You'll be shocked at how out of whack most circ saws are. Some can be shimmed straight, others can't. Not much good if the saw can't keep the blade pointed in the right direction.
Good sawing!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Festool TS55
need a deeper cut Festool TS75
The saw the guide and the dust extraction is superb
And the blades cut better then any hand held saw have ever cut. The edge is as straight as a jointed edge. wether 90 degrees or a beveled cut the guide edge is the cut edge. it is the best guide system i have ever used or seen.
I would prefer they use less plastic in their construction but that is the trend today but still a great saw and guide system.